Riot, Stop Making Everything A Skillshot or Delayed

Nuclear Corvid·Feb 15, 2015·150 votes·8,959 views

You keep doing it in the name of "counterplay." You know what's not going to have counterplay pretty soon?

Champs with mobility, because there's just going to be no way to hit them.

129 Comments

StratFeb 15, 201554 votes

I agree, there's nothing inherently wrong with targeted spells or CC, as long as the range is short enough to balance it. With champions become more and more mobile, Riot should at least maintain the current set of targeted spell champions. Pantheon is a classic example, apart from his ult is skill set basically exists to delete squishy mobile champions. This is a good thing, as it allows him to have a niche that he can be appropriately played to.

KnivingDudeFeb 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I agree, there's nothing inherently wrong with targeted spells or CC, as long as the range is short enough to balance it. With champions become more and more mobile, Riot should at least maintain the current set of targeted spell champions. Pantheon is a classic example, apart from his ult is skill set basically exists to delete squishy mobile champions. This is a good thing, as it allows him to have a niche that he can be appropriately played to.

What's your stance on the Veigar changes? I'd love you opinion on that.

StratFeb 15, 201511 votes

I haven't really looked deeply into it, but as I understand it his Q is a skillshot similar to Lux Q (without the CC but with the AP stacking) and his E takes longer to cast, while his ult has lower AP ratio to compensate for easier Q farming. Sorry if I'm wrong, I haven't seen the notes since this morning and can't bother rechecking.

I think the change is healthy. His "press R to delete" ulti is still intact, which will help him deal with mobile champs. It remains to be seen how hard the E delay will hurt, but honestly the Q buff was much needed and as long as the skillshot isn't too "thin" I think Veigar will come out stronger than before.

My comment was more focused on targeted skills in general. I think Riot's doing a good job with the reworks, but I think it's silly for their "goal" to be to remove targeted CC/targeted spells in general.

LegostrikeFeb 15, 20152 votes

The E will hurt badly. i've been engineering lately and If there's one thing I know, 0.75 is actually quite a bit. That delay sucks on a champion that relays on that ability.

HowldoomFeb 15, 20154 votes

On the one hand, he won't/shouldn't be able to instant-stun people anymore. But he can still zone with it - they see the circle on the ground, they have 3 options:

they move away from it and don't get stunned, but now have to move around it or back up (making it good for disengage);
they don't move and get stunned (either because they don't pay attention or got hit by some other CC);
or they end up inside the event horizon, leaving them to either blow an escape ability to get out unscathed or to remain inside and with limited space to dodge Veigar's Q and W (and anything else that Veigar's team throws at them).

Fun thought: If Veigar has a Janna on his team, and he uses his E, and those inside the circle don't fall for it, but then Janna gets in the center and uses her ult... wombo combo :P I can see this work with Gragas as well, though in either case skill would be needed.

LegostrikeFeb 15, 20154 votes

I just played a round with him on the PBE and I think Riot is on the right track. the Q is really nice, W is pretty much the same, I just have a problem with the E. The warning is much to long. Enemies rarely get caught in it. However, because of its delay you can make some nice plays with it. I think they should lower the delay just a tiny bit, maybe down to 0.6 seconds. Then I will be content. He's been nerfed because he cant delete people quite as well anymore, but now he's able to make plays, he's fun to play, and he's still really good.

LeeDarkFeb 15, 20154 votes

The problem with the E change is that he can no longer effectively use it to defend himself or, with skill, land the stun instantly. His best case scenario is now to center a champion inside of it so that it pops up and confines them to that area. I feel like Dark Matter should have a slightly increased AoE to compensate, allowing him to Dark Matter in the middle of the stun zone and force the champion caught in it to choose between big damage or getting stunned.

RedTrinketGoneHaFeb 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I agree, there's nothing inherently wrong with targeted spells or CC, as long as the range is short enough to balance it. With champions become more and more mobile, Riot should at least maintain the current set of targeted spell champions. Pantheon is a classic example, apart from his ult is skill set basically exists to delete squishy mobile champions. This is a good thing, as it allows him to have a niche that he can be appropriately played to.

I agree with this, also the fact that Mobile Champions should not really have any to little CC, Kassadin had a Silence on Q with a 700 range gap closer, a 50% slow on E for 3 seconds, like what's up with that? And even as an Akali main I will bring myself to say that 800 range on a dash ult with a 1 second cooldown was a little much. Not to mention her still dominant damage even after the nerfs.

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 20154 votes

Give targeted spells short range. Give mobility champions short range. Give skill shots long range. Voilà! You have a better balanced game.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 15, 201521 votes

but... but... skillshots are a way define TEH SKILLZ!!!! what's that? good positioning and knowing how to use skills/champion/items effectively is also a way to show skill? DO NOT CARE!!! SKILLSHOTS = TEH SKILLZ!!!11

Rito

ThryaleFeb 15, 20151 votes

I'm not a CoD brat. I don't have lightning reflexes. I can't play all these new champs that rely on skill shot line nukes. It's why I've been maining vlad and veigar recently. They don't need to have precise aim. Just dropping a stun in the general direction, or positioning my champ just right is all I can muster. Why does riot see fit to remove the champs I can actually play well in favor of all the CoD brats in diamond?

BiffoloFeb 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I'm not a CoD brat. I don't have lightning reflexes. I can't play all these new champs that rely on skill shot line nukes. It's why I've been maining vlad and veigar recently. They don't need to have precise aim. Just dropping a stun in the general direction, or positioning my champ just right is all I can muster. Why does riot see fit to remove the champs I can actually play well in favor of all the CoD brats in diamond?

Its not being a CoD brat. Having lighting reflexes is a skill needed to be good at this game. I do feel that there can be a healthy mix of targeted and skillshots, but don't bitch because you don't have the skillset to be good.

ThryaleFeb 16, 20151 votes

reflexes are not some kind of skill that you can develop. You can train them to some extent. but each human has certain limits of reactivity. The older you get, the less responsive your reflexes become. I've never had great reflexes to begin with, but they are steadily getting worse with each passing year, and I'd very much like to continue to play this game with champs that I can still perform well with.

BiffoloFeb 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

reflexes are not some kind of skill that you can develop. You can train them to some extent. but each human has certain limits of reactivity. The older you get, the less responsive your reflexes become. I've never had great reflexes to begin with, but they are steadily getting worse with each passing year, and I'd very much like to continue to play this game with champs that I can still perform well with.

Except if you truly are that serious, you CAN develop them to that extent. I did, I shaved about 100 ms off my reaction times just by training them for quite some time. Its a skill, if you want to compete with the best, you need to have the skillset of the best. If you just admitted that you aren't capable of doing well, then I fail to see what the problem is. You admitted it yourself. You said you aren't good enough.

ThryaleFeb 16, 20151 votes

does that mean I must also forfeit my right to enjoy the game? These high skill cap high skill floor champs are not enjoyable.

MofoJamesFeb 16, 20151 votes

Well, not to be too harsh, but that's why lower ELOs exist. If your reflexes are actually so bad that it's compromising your ability to enjoy the game, you'll move down in the ranks until you're with people who are about on your level. You can't expect the entire game to shift and evolve around your (apparently exceptional) personal traits.

BiffoloFeb 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

does that mean I must also forfeit my right to enjoy the game? These high skill cap high skill floor champs are not enjoyable.

Then you will drop your mmr to play with people of your level. There's a reason "no one" in bronze can play champs like ori to a level people in plat would find acceptable. If you aren't happy with it you need to do something about it. I find the high skillcap high skill floor champs enjoyable. It sets aprart the people who honestly care enough to learn champs as opposed to the people who just derp around. And if you play more you should be rewarded with a better experience IMO. It's how they reward dedication.

MrSlowDieFeb 15, 201510 votes

we need counterplay !!!

->every skillshot that need to aim and prediction countered by ->one single button press of dash or jump

-->meanwhile dash/jump only countered by madlife's flay level to interrupt dash.

ZazushaFeb 15, 20159 votes

After those changes to Viegar (and Zilien, although he deserves it) I am seriously worried for Gangplank.

He's destined for a rework at some point (super happy not soon) and I just know they are gonna make his Q a skill shot, and if they change make him has any other Damage skill, it'll have some big delay (like if they turn his ult into a Ziggz ult clone, that just shoots 1 large cannon ball, unlikely, but u can never know with Rito)

KingsgraveFeb 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

After those changes to Viegar (and Zilien, although he deserves it) I am seriously worried for Gangplank.

He's destined for a rework at some point (super happy not soon) and I just know they are gonna make his Q a skill shot, and if they change make him has any other Damage skill, it'll have some big delay (like if they turn his ult into a Ziggz ult clone, that just shoots 1 large cannon ball, unlikely, but u can never know with Rito)

Gangplank's passive, W and E are probably all going to be changed drastically. I doubt they will touch his Q or R.

ZazushaFeb 15, 20154 votes

Every time they say" counterplay is needed, and skill shots create that," i lose more and more faith that his Q will be retained.

ProvengreilFeb 15, 20152 votes

They also say that the bits that make a champ genuinely unique are left relatively untouched, and that's actually kinda true in most cases. Perfect example, Lucian: they faffed around with his kit FOREVER before finally giving up and realize that the lightslinger passive was just straight OP, and nerfed it hard enough for him to disappear rather than try something else.

GP's Q is the reason you play GP: melee effects at range and dat bank. I just don't see them changing that.

ZazushaFeb 15, 20158 votes

You can never tell with bipolar rito. (we want diversity but refuse to nerf the 3 jungles that are exclusively played throughout all ranks and modes, and instead make sweeping nerfs that ONLY hurt every other jungler)

They do have some Cred as far as what GP's rework can yield with the QoL buff to his Ult a little while ago. However, His kit will have to change pretty drastically if it is actually going to impact his play in the current/future meta where Mobility and Knock up/displacement dominate.

Oranges dont make you K when knocked up, and his high Move speed stacking doesn't help him for squat vs Kalista.

MofoJamesFeb 16, 20152 votes

Weird that there are exactly three viable junglers played exclusively at every level of the game, because I'm pretty sure I play four or five with at least modest success. You may be confusing "exceptionally strong" with "only viable." There's always going to be a strongest champ for each position (very broadly speaking), but that doesn't mean you can't use any of the others effectively.

ZazushaFeb 16, 20151 votes

i dont see the word Viable in what i said.

For Solo Q, all ranks, Junglers: Vi has top Win rate, and top Games played, Lee has top pick rate, 2nd top games played, and J4 Has top Ban rate at 68% (vi #3 ban)

Some numbers even higher In 5v5 ranked and Normal queues.

Last time Riot touched any of these 3? Directly?

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 20158 votes

Every time they say "Counterplay is needed" I ask what is the "counterplay" to Kalista's passive. Considering that now everything is a skillshot.

SmokingPuffinFeb 15, 20151 votes

I very much expect GP Q to get skillshotted. Riot despises low interactivity laning patterns.

ZazushaFeb 15, 20152 votes

If they do, they should remove the mana from GP, make him resourceless. The mana refunded by hitting Q is junk.

Or buff the damage all the way up, His base damage on Q is complete shit.

or make is pierce on unit kill like a kalista Q.

SmokingPuffinFeb 15, 20151 votes

Pierce on kill sounds fun. Sets up interesting harass opportunities and maybe more banking in the right situation.

ZazushaFeb 15, 20152 votes

well, Currently, If any aoe on-hit proc from GP's Q ( item 3025 , item 3087 , item 3074 ) kills minions he does get bonus gold from his Q for each minion killed.

However, something that would be pretty cool to see would be if item 3074 's Onhit when piercing proc through a full creep wave in 1 shot if Gp stacked enough AD. Prolly would be "too op for gp" according to rito tho

A Superb VillainFeb 15, 20156 votes

Veigar "Too much mobility? My E will save us!"

Zed "Hahahaha!" Ahri "Hahahaha!" Akali "Hahahaha!" Kalista "Hahahaha!" Leblanc "Hahahaha!" Katarina "Hahahaha!" Lucian "Hahahaha!" Yasuo "Hahahaha!

LeeSin "What's so funny? I can't see a damn thing. Oh, wait" http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110401141428/leagueoflegends/images/4/46/Tempest.jpg "Hahahaha!"

AbyssphereFeb 15, 20154 votes

I would think skill shots = good generally but it's hard to support it when people like Kalista come out. Whenever there's a thread about her passive people just say "use targeted CC" and it's just like "well there's about three people with that left", and I imagine Lissandra will be the only person to keep it for much longer.

Targeted abilities aren't very fun but neither are skillshot immune champs.

KijitowFeb 15, 20154 votes

I live on the East Coast, so it just lets me know that Riot no longer cares about champs that work with my ping. On the plus side, it's allowed me to catch up my collection of old champs.

SunnySplosionFeb 16, 20153 votes

This just in, champions autos are now skillshots. This will seperate the good players from the great ones.

cocacolalipsFeb 15, 20152 votes

I can't agree with that, there is no gameplay when people just click each other to death. Then it's only a matter of who has the best stats. My stats are better than yours? I win. They don't? I lose.

Might as well play pokemon or something.

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 201511 votes

Pokémon involves a huge amount of strategy.

Only Play DariusFeb 15, 20151 votes

LOL not rly.

Just get a team of 6 legendaries and destroy anything that challenges you.

Nuclear CorvidFeb 15, 20157 votes

Yeah, Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres are really going to show up that Mega Gardevoir.

Oh wait.

Also, learn how competitive Pokemon actually functions before making silly comments.

BiffoloFeb 16, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuclear Corvid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ragPR6MK,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-15T20:49:27.823+0000)

Yeah, Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres are really going to show up that Mega Gardevoir.

Oh wait.

Also, learn how competitive Pokemon actually functions before making silly comments.

Oh, the outsiders that dont understand :P

DirewolfiezFeb 16, 20152 votes

I saw a Baton Passed Caterpie beat the shit out of an entire team, including a Groudon and a Greninja. People think legendaries will automatically make them win...it's hilarious.

Here's the video I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S11HdTgR4gM

cocacolalipsFeb 15, 20152 votes

Pokemon matchups are really poor.

Does my pokemon element counter my opponent pokemon element? yes, I win, no, I lose. Press same attack over and over. The end. Then you swap counters back and forth because there is nothing else to do.

DirewolfiezFeb 16, 20154 votes

Wrong, you're completely ignoring items and Mega Evolutions, as well as the movepool for each Pokémon and both abilities and hidden abilities. A Gengar with Focus Sash can wreck Dark Pokémon with Dazzling Gleam even if it's outsped. You're confusing 1st Gen with every other gen in the game, and even then held items were a thing. You know nothing about Pokémon.

NorthernDruidFeb 15, 20151 votes

I just can't wait until they make Ryze's Q a skillshot so his full combo has 6 skillshots in it. While completely wrecking his current farming pattern.

Meanwhile his E is gonna be left untouched and remain the spell you toss out there to get some extra CDR on your other spells.

ZazushaFeb 15, 201513 votes

lol, hey, one benifit (and prolly the only one) to his Ryze's Q becoming a skillshot. He can build Tear without a target finally.

Just chuck them stawbarry snowballs everywhere

NorthernDruidFeb 15, 20152 votes

True, but they could give the skillshot treatment to his E instead (which seems much more natural in that it alreeady kinda resembles a boomerang skillshot). Leaving him his Q to farm with, and introducing the interesting decision of whether to go for an extra Q once you root them with W or push your E out when you know it'll hit.

I think if they manage to make his E more interactive, make it require some subset of targeting and positioning to get out it's full damage potential, and push some of the power from his Qs over into his E(s), then you have a Ryze who still plays like Ryze, but now you have interesting play to attempt (or not if you don't wanna risk getting to the needed position) and zoning-related counterplay.

In the big rework announcement post, it was said that Q was an "obvious candidate" for skillshotifying, giving it increased range in return. I fail to see how this is the obvious option, seeing as his short combo will then have 3 skillshots and his long combo will have 6, as well as his only farming ability being renedered all but useless for it (unless they let it pass through minions, which doesn't sound like his Overload(Q) at all).

Nucleophilic atkFeb 15, 20151 votes

Uhm, what other ability is a skill shot? I thought they were all point and click.

xStahFeb 15, 20154 votes

facepalm How to play Ryze = spam buttons = press qqqqqq = 6 skillshots

SecretAgentHulkFeb 15, 20152 votes

His combo has a q between every other ability cast.

RockmanFeb 15, 20151 votes

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Nuclear CorvidFeb 15, 20153 votes

It's a pity Riot has proven that they hate tanks, so that's not likely. The mobile menaces that are carries these days shred tanks like nothing anyway.