Riot, Your Entry on Zed in the Patch Notes is Appalling

Nuclear Corvid·Jan 15, 2015·147 votes·8,537 views

For two, fairly major reasons.

Reason #1:

Ah, Zed. With your amazing plays topping many a competitive player's highlight reel, how could we not love you?

Riot is basically acknowledging that they will favor champions with LC$BIGPLAYS potential.

Reason #2:

All in all, Zed is one of the best examples of what we call a "healthy assassin" in League of Legends.

combined with

That doesn't mean there aren't problems - while Zed's ability to delete squishies with a button press and some smooth moves is going to remain intact,

Riot thinks that it's healthy to be able to kill someone by pressing a button, as well as being able to simultaneously commit fully while leaving an easy, free escape and therefore not actually committing, and being extremely difficult to gank in lane.

Seriously. What the heck?

213 Comments

Serpents EmbraceJan 15, 201595 votes

You know whats the real irony in the text from Riot? They state they like that he can delete squishies with a press of a button, however they nerf DFG - an active item thats part of a combo to delete people.

So Zed beeing able to 1 shot is cool but a mage having to use DFG is no counterplay? Am i missing something?

Knight DevoutJan 15, 201542 votes

Nerf? They totally removed it!

Malix FarwinJan 15, 201514 votes

The reason they removed DFG is because it does not look flashy enough in the LCS. IF it made mages look more like lee sin then they would of buffed it

DrCyanideJan 15, 20158 votes

Change the projectile to look like Lee Sin following a Q to someone. Problem solved, DFG stays!

qetzelJan 15, 201524 votes

No. They dislike DFG because "First, DFG tends to make burst patterns even more bursty. The item effectively adds another nuke spell on top of kits that are already designed to have strong up-front damage and aggravates the "whoa, I got one shot out of nowhere" frustration of playing against certain champions. A good example is LeBlanc; DFG adds reliability to her assassination patterns and ends up removing counterplay (she gets to rely on her Q, E, and DFG spells for damage, and can use dashes to reposition or escape instead of making more risky plays).

The second reason is strongly tied to the first; removing this item gives us room to buff champion kits that would otherwise be overpowered if they could use DFG. The most obvious example is Ahri; more 'magey' elements of the character, like her sustained damage or kiting, end up getting washed out because she has so much power to blow up charmed targets with a DFG burst. This ends up forcing us to balance Ahri around her assassin playstyle because there's always the "I can buy DFG" route to consider; removing the item means we can buff her in more interesting ways while still keeping some of her burst because she can't just pick up a DFG and double down on a single playstyle."

BIG difference.

asktiksJan 15, 201513 votes

so by that logic , they will buff ap ratios across the board amirite?

its BS and you know it , buffing her in "interesting ways" is codespeak for we don't even know where to buff, we just don't want casters one shotting people, but its ok for melee assasins to do it, just not caster assasins

I expect SIX MONTHS of no buffs , no dfg, no zed nerfs, just wait and see how we get to survive this BS for half a season oh wait I forget, DFG mages cant make flashy BIGLCSPLAYS so nevermind move along...

qetzelJan 15, 201517 votes

No. They will buff the champions that relied on the item to be effective. These include (but may or may not be limited to) Ahri and Veigar.

Veigar's kit gives him nothing BUT an AP ration buff. Ahri has more options. Decreasing the cooldown of the ultimate for more flashy plays (Which will be fair now that dfg is gone), give Charm an additional effect if you hit another ability, increase the power of the orb to enhance her wave clear and more.

I expect a few weeks of nothing before the next patch with an interesting Ahri buff and a boring numbers buff for Veigar. I expect a Zed nerf (probably the bonus AD on W and/or an attack speed nerf from reading the patch notes). I will also be expecting compensatory Zed buffs (because 25% AD is a lot).

And the mages that typically took DFG were Le Blanc, who is almost all LCS big plays, Ahri, who is fairly big play-y and Veigar, who is boring. Syndra sometimes took it, and has been in the LCS for a while now.

Yandere CarryJan 16, 20153 votes

to be honest, DFG is (if not always, at least regularly) taken on majority of standard ap mids.

Veigar, Ahri, Annie, Leblanc, Katarina, Fizz, etc. It is a strong item for pretty much any of them, so I'd say there will be a number of ap buffs across the board.

Jungle Lux GodJan 15, 20155 votes

Riot is removing DFG because it allowed players to delete a squishy with no counterplay and no time to react. You basically activated DFG, passed gas, and heard "You have slain an enemy".

With Zed, players at least have time to react to Zed ulting them, and they can get in a better position in order to either reduce the damage Zed can deal or force Zed to trade more unfavorably in order to kill you.

DrCyanideJan 15, 201513 votes

... 0.75 seconds. You can't move that far in that amount of time.

It does give you more time to contemplate your impending doom, but that's about it.

InsaneSamuraiJan 15, 20152 votes

Well plenty of champs can delete squishies with no counterplay and no time to react. I don't see them getting nerfed very often.

WheatloafJan 15, 201531 votes

They finally admit Zed is too strong, say they're going to nerf him, and the first thing you think to do is nit-pick about how they worded the message?

Nuclear CorvidJan 15, 201511 votes

Well, no, the first thing I did was laugh at "healthy assassin."

But honestly, this isn't even nit-picking. This is just looking at the attitudes made more obvious by what they said. And the attitudes they expressed seem, to me, to indicate that they have very little idea about how to adequately balance their game.

WheatloafJan 15, 201520 votes

Riot's always called Zed the healthiest assassin in the game, because really, he is, given he only has one targeted ability, one which requires him to land his others to actually do much of anything. Sure, you can find incompetence in what they said, but really only if you're reading it with the expectation of such.

They said he's League's best example of a healthy assassin, which is arguably true.

They said he has to click on you and pull some smooth moves to get one over on you, which is different from saying that they like it when people click on you to kill you so long as it's flashy.

They said he's fun to watch. I won't disagree with the sentiment. He's also, relative to other assassins, fun to play against. If you'd rather watch (and by extension, play against) Akali, Fizz, or Katarina take over his popularity, or even share it, speak now.

Also, you can look at my match history if you want. I play immobile mages reasonably often, which means Zed in his current state of overpoweredness pisses me of about as much as people that say "outplayed" on Fiora. I just happen to also dislike it when people accuse a company that actually gives a flying fuck about their customers of spiting the community simply for the lulz.

InsaneSamuraiJan 15, 20151 votes

If you don't have armor(or if he's fed) all he has to do is ult, shuriken, aoe, maybe throw a basic, and hit the ult button again. Then he goes away to do whatever he wants while you die.

Also, I don't think Riot does things particularly to spite the community, but their odd seeming priorities make them do these things unintentionally.

Yandere CarryJan 16, 20154 votes

A big factor to realize is the community is huge in NA.... And as a whole, NA is only part of it. Balance is based around the entire world's player base and not just a fraction of a fraction of a fraction that posts on the boards.

RoyaiChaosJan 16, 20152 votes

You missed the "and some smooth part", which means that you need more than just a button press, but you also have to have a decent follow up.

manbearswineJan 16, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuclear Corvid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t5mGQRjP,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2015-01-15T19:39:44.435+0000)

And the attitudes they expressed seem, to me, to indicate that they have very little idea about how to adequately balance their game.

I'm pretty sure they are capable of balancing the game much better than they do now,just not the will.

Drunk RummateJan 15, 201526 votes

Wtf is the problem with you people?

The notes addressed that Zed has a problem, stated that they hadn't experimented with a fix yet, and that he's going to be tinkered with? And you have issues because they tried to word it in an interesting way? The way those patch notes are written is one of the best parts about reading a new Riot patch.

EfficientDynamoJan 15, 20153 votes

I completely agree with this sentiment. You can't really take Pwyff's commentary on the patch notes too seriously, because part of his job is to make it fun and interesting to read. You want a more official statement, get the heads of live balance or champion reworks to comment on it.

Also, lets be fair: Zed is annoying and safe as hell compared to most other champs, but he usually can only take out 1 or 2 people in a teamfight. Compare that to Kat, Fizz, Yas, etc. Zed isn't nearly as likely to demolish a team or get a pentakill.

Nuclear CorvidJan 15, 20152 votes

If Pwyff's comments don't reflect the thoughts of the live balance and champion rework teams, he shouldn't be doing the patch notes.

Or is "Clarity" not important anymore?

EfficientDynamoJan 15, 20153 votes

Fair point, clarity is important. But in that regard I think he was clear: they think Zed is in a good place in terns of play style, but may need to have other aspects (like his splitpush power) nerfed. You want simple and funny, go to patch notes which are clear enough for a small paragraph update that doesn't overwhelm readers. You want in depth discussion, go to the boards and get a Rioter's attention (good luck?).

gubigubiJan 15, 20154 votes

Ya riots patch notes are pretty funny even when they nerf your fav mid laner and then joke about it :l!

Leblanc "No more silence. Only tears. " -Rito 4.10

But I like riots notes its better than blizzards patch notes dear god lol.

Toothless LionJan 15, 20158 votes

Boo hoo muh ranged cancer has counters.

Nuclear CorvidJan 15, 201521 votes

I play melee tanks almost exclusively.

It doesn't stop Zed from being complete bull.

asktiksJan 15, 20156 votes

im gonna make an experiment, I haven't searched for your profile as my game still hasn't come up, but once it does I will check, im pretty sure ill see a bunch of zed games on your profile amirite? zed main?

zed is complete and utter bulshit, theres a reason hes so banned and most people hate seeing him in games, im sorry you like to faceroll one button push your way into victory , don't worry , they are not taking away your toy

well just keep rushing zhonyas and trolling your ult since its all we can do that or just play bruisers and dedicate myself to making life as miserable for zed as they make it for me in most everygame I wanna play something with a mana bar

Toothless LionJan 15, 20156 votes

[deleted]

OJ191Jan 15, 201523 votes

{quoted}

When I stop seeing 3+ assassins bans every single game and 2x assassins picked mid in almost every single game (not counting if I get mid since I don't like assassin play styles and refuse to play them just because they're ridiculously strong atm), I'll stop being pissed at assassins.

Until then, they can suck a dick because I'm sick of non-broken mages getting pushed out of their own damn lane.

TheI3igDaddyJan 15, 20158 votes

'Same thing they did with Lucian.

"O-okay guys we can uh...we do realize that he's strong, REALLY, we do...so we're uh...we're TRYING to find some way to nerf him. I mean his passive hits like a truck...eh...we'll nerf his W's AD ratio."

They'll probably do the same with Zed and nerf parts of him that people aren't complaining about. Do what that glorious bastard said in the other thread, and make his shurikens act the same way as Lux's binding, so he doesn't have really stupid waveclear anymore. It's a start, at least.

Lao Fu the TigerJan 15, 20157 votes

OP, I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree with your post.

Riot is basically acknowledging that they will favor champions with LC$BIGPLAYS potential.

And this is a problem? Is the fact people enjoy using or watching certain champions who make flashy plays in and of itself problematic? No. It's not. It's not about the "LC$BIGPLAYS" that make Zed annoying, it's strictly his overbearing strength with the current iteration of in-game balance.

All in all, Zed is one of the best examples of what we call a "healthy assassin" in League of Legends.

Judging by the quotation marks, I, too, can see that Riot was "totally serious" when they said he was "'healthy.'" This is sarcasm, clearly. But let's look at what it's combined with, as you said, because that's more important. You complained about this:

That doesn't mean there aren't problems - while Zed's ability to delete squishies with a button press and some smooth moves is going to remain intact...

And Veigar can't? And Katarina can't? And Annie can't? And Talon can't? And Master Yi can't? And LeBlanc can't? And [insert other assassins or carries here] can't?

The point makes no sense. Riot said nothing about keeping his escape totally intact. Riot made no claims that he wouldn't get hit with nerfs that made him more balanced and fun and strategic to play as and against. Riot simply said that Zed, classed as an assassin, will still maintain his ability to assassinate squishies, as that is the primary job of an assassin. Furthermore, with possibly the exceptions of Master Yi and Katarina (and Akali, possibly), this means that once their load is blown on said squishy, they are left with an even less than optimal kill and teamfight potential. As much as those Zed shurikens hurt, after he's used his Death Mark, he ONLY has those shurikens. And as a squishy melee, he's super vulnerable to simply jumping into a teamfight without that ultimate, regardless of how powerful he is. This is a distinct disadvantage of most (not all) assassins, and it's a very clear weakness. What does Talon do once he loses his ult? Spams W until someone steps out and he can E in again. What does Akali do without her ult? Sits around and watches the teamfight from afar with minimal impact until she gets a new charge.

So yes, he will maintain his ability to delete super squishy targets, like an ADC, if they get in range and are out of position, as is his role as an assassin. Just like all other assassins.

As another member stated, Riot has clearly pointed out that his kit is very problematic in the current iteration of game balance. It's not fair of you to nit-pick the way they chose to word it, especially when they're doing their best to make these patch notes interesting to read rather than the pages and pages of bland documentation that they truly are underneath it all.

Mr Wright IIJan 15, 20154 votes

finally, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT AN ASSASSIN DOES??

YOU BEEN WARNEDJan 16, 20152 votes

Deleting carries with a button comes at a price and that has been well established in league for 95% of the champions. needs to fully commit to her AD build and such she will likely not find a way out after diving the carry

Veigar has one of the weakest early games in the game, also immobile and requires enemy team not to dive him somehow. bruisers should get in his face unlike Zed's targeted dash + shadow.

's ult stands in place and is sustained, it does not delete a carry with a button press. Unlike Zed, Katarina does not have a built in slow, item 3142 and item 3153 as extremely synergitic items on her build which force carries to stay there and die.

Annie 's play pattern is obvious, if she has 3 or 4 stacks then it's dangerous to approach. She also can't delete squishies without summoner 4 .

Talon 's ultimate is his only reliable escape, I don't know much about this guy but even he has established strengths and does not transition to one of the best duelists & splitpushers in the game.

MasterYi 's damage is not a button press, he continuously auto attacks the target. IMO he's not balanced either.

Leblanc 's waveclear is her most important ability, she falls off lategame HARD. Unlike Zed she has no waveclear and no split pushing potential; she also does not get a slow to land her first root.

About teamfighting potential after ulting, Zed's ult is a guaranteed kill thanks to item 3153 & item 3142 , and let's not forget how he can even kill tanks because item 3035 & item 3071 . Even if Zed SOMEHOW does not kill the target, he can simply go to another lane and shove it because waveclear & having 45S CD.

And by the way, Zed actually has more teamfighting potential after all than a lot of the assassins after blowing his ult. His W stays in a position for 4 seconds effectively being a zoning tool as if it was another champion.

Another champion you say? Yes another champion. It uses Q and E just like Zed while being untargetable so all it's lacking is the auto attacks which he can W to again if he's given the chance to auto attack.

The damn thing has range on it, Talon using W in a teamfight mean's he's likely taking focus fire and die. Zed spams /laugh as he sits 4 miles behind his shadow while doing work.

Flay and PrayJan 15, 20156 votes

Zed makes flashy plays, whether or not you like him, we can agree on that. Your taking what riot said completely out of context. When they say "With all your flashy plays how can we not like you..." they are not saying they favor him due to this, but almost everyone that plays him plays him for this reason.
Zed is one of the healthiest assassins in the game. I completely agree with riot on this one. He has an ult that can be countered that requires using his other abilities to make use of it to destroy squishys. After his ult is on CD it's very hard for him to burst other champs unless fed. This is what assassins should be. While I think his laning phase is a bit too oppressive, and he is in need of some nerfs, he's still relatively healthy for the game.
Once again, your freaking out over the ability for an assassin to instantly kill squishys. However, unlike some other assassins, zed cannot do so with a single button press. Can he kill someone with nothing but pressing R? No, it wouldn't do anything. He needs to stick to the target for several seconds, making sure to go in only when he has enough energy for a combo. If you want to complain about a champ that one shots squishys with one button complain about veigar.

Some people in this player base are just never happy. They say they are going to nerf him, admit he's too strong and your complaining about how they agree with you. But I guess, this is inevitable in a community as large as LoL.

SeviangJan 15, 20155 votes

Riot is basically acknowledging that they will favor champions with LC$BIGPLAYS potential.

I think that's only logical for them, since those types of champs are the most fun to play. High skill cap champions with interesting mechanics are fun, they are nearly all of the most popular champions, so it makes perfect sense that Riot wants to have more champions like Zed, Thresh, Braum, Lucian, Lee Sin, etc.

Dankplank420Jan 15, 20154 votes

Complexity =/= fun, I'm tired of people making that false equivalence. Riot seems to have fallen for it as well, because we haven't seen any simple champion concepts in a long time. Some people like abilities doing one thing and one thing only (remember when those were a thing) instead of champions having two passives + some inane conditional effects on skills. Champions like Garen are still fun to play because they are simple.

SmokingPuffinJan 15, 20154 votes

We already knew Riot prefers exciting, playmaking champions. Why shouldn't they?

We also know that when Riot nerfs champions, they don't mess with the calling card if at all possible. Instead they trim back power in areas where it's still impactful, but not so central to the champion fantasy.

In my view, these are pretty good design instincts.

I am sad they didn't mention his incredible safety margin, which for me is the big problem with his design.

metaworldpeace10Jan 15, 20154 votes

Last night I had a game where our banner did not ban Zed. The other team captain had first pick. He first picked Zed. Our team captain locked in AP MF mid. Needless to say, the Zed got futt bucked so hard that we rolled over him. I laughed a little and hoped that this AP MF killed the confidence of another FOTM mid lane assassin main. Thank you AP MF! You saved many souls yesterday from cancer.

Guy Fox TeemoJan 16, 20153 votes

I really do find it funny that people are complaing about Zed. Why the fck didn't you complain about him when he was released why didn't you all those months i certainly dont remember before chalice nerf every other thread being a Zed is "OP". Now just because mages got nerfed. And none mana champions are in favor and Zed is being played more everyones like "ZED IS OP AS FCK" When in reality he's never been OP and still isn't he's just the best at what he does. And Zeds always been like that killing someone quick and getting out easy. But no people dont complain until there champions get nerfed and they just move onto the next best thing. People seem to have this mentality that if a champions doing the best at somethings he's OP. Because no there not. If you nerf them another champ will step up and be the best at it. Then they'll be nerfed and so on.

SukishooJan 16, 20152 votes

I know right?

It's like WHY is he just NOW a problem in their minds and he wasn't before? He's been here for a long ass time and has had the same power he's always had.

DirewolfiezJan 16, 20153 votes

You do realize that champs can be indirectly buffed when their counters, or even the people they counter, are nerfed? Practically every mage suffered from the Athene's nerf, and now they're losing DFG and Morello's cost was increased. Mages have less effective items to use, yet AD assassins are untouched. See what I'm talking about? Zed was indirectly buffed when his "prey" got nerfed, giving him an even bigger advantage over them.

U4fyn2vZzWJan 16, 20153 votes

Idk man i think Zed is also the heatheist assassin.

Think of it this way, would you rather a Zed get fed or a Akali/Fizz get fed? Because if Zed gets fed atleast only one of you is going to die most of the time.

DanyTargarynJan 16, 20153 votes

"ZED" and "BALANCE" do not belong in the same sentence Rito. Stop your champ favoritism for your own personal LCS agenda.

ArveanorJan 15, 20152 votes

Zed's powerful, but as someone who doesn't play him, I am completely baffled as to how you could possibly find him unhealthy. Sure he's got a lot of safety, but they didn't say that they are going to completely ignore that, now did they? Overall I think it's completely true that he's a pretty well designed assassin.

Oh and, wow you have something deep in your anus if you can get mad about riot saying they want to nerf a champion you want nerfed, simply because they might not nerf him as hard as you like.

PoshrielJan 16, 20152 votes

I'm not really worried about zed not getting nerfed hard, he needs a light nerf to make him a little less overwhelming. However, it is annoying when the first time in a long time mana intensive characters get an item like Morellonomicon, and they are allowed to have even a 1/3 of the spammability zed has, the item gets nerfed within the end of the first month.

It's like they know zed is a problem, and they do nothing about it. Which is fine, but at least don't make the people constantly having problems against him even worse against him than they already are. I don't even feel like I have to build even a 3rd of my damage kit to actually delete people with zed. Riven is another character like this, but for different reason. Mainly the giant ad scaling shield/dash on a low cooldown.

straight4freeJan 16, 20152 votes

Of course, they wouldn't even dare roll out some numbers nerfs for these assassins now, lest we actually enjoy ourselves in mid lane.

AsdeftJan 16, 20152 votes

Is that all league of legends players do is bitch. moan and act entitled to shit.

UiruJan 16, 20152 votes

Riot thinks it's funny to reference broken champions in patch notes while nerfing random champions for absolutely no reason.

Why doesn't Riot just post the list of champs that they want us to play? We already know Lee Sin, Zed, and Thresh are on it, but we need at least two more. (And, conversely, they hate people playing Sona, which is why the senseless nerf train continues.) ~Uiru

AkesgerothJan 16, 20152 votes

Take it from someone who was there when assassins were useless: Remove that insta gib potential and suddenly marksmen are unstoppable past the 45/minutes mark.