Shyvana Passive Change on PBE

Solari Fortune·Nov 14, 2016·5 votes·15,581 views

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QoJSskNAr80/WCohMThc-2I/AAAAAAAA_0c/iNcw9Y8VaAwziyUv1veUQnj8CFdfexspwCLcB/s1600/1221312.jpg

EDIT: Currently this is also increasing her smite damage to dragons

130 Comments

AIQNov 15, 20167 votes

Doesn't matter at this point riots not listening. We can fight about it all we want at the end of the day we will be forced to play what ever shyvana becomes whether we like it or no cause riot wont care about what we think is the best for her. They get paid to do it not us so if we love a champion we will still play them shafted or not. This will not break Shyvana but it will make her over all a bit weaker just bit more reliable when initiating not the worse that could happen but I was hoping for more.

If Riot does see this post again though just please continue to look at her post this going live so that if it hurts her a lot you guys can revert it or buff it fast.

Forhonor321Nov 14, 20166 votes

I already made a post in response to this change but I'll say it again here: I'm disappointed in this change. Yes the previous new passive had RNG and was a bit busted with the true damage and whatnot but it felt different than her current one and made you feel like it rewarded you more when you secured dragons. Here, yes you do more damage to dragons but your passive in now tied into this where it's either you secure dragons and still have your bonuses scale or you don't get any and your current bonuses become worthless as you head into late game. At least with her current one it still can scale better into late game even if you don't secure dragons.

The Blue RajahNov 14, 20169 votes

Yeah. This new new one is basically the same as her current passive (boring), but unreliable. The proposed elemental buffs were at least interesting.

RiotMeddlerNov 14, 201613 votes

We're going to explore the different buffs based off the type of dragon killed again at some point. It hasn't had enough testing, and does have some issues, so at least for now we're pulling it in favor of the Armor/MR version now on the PBE. Might or might not return someday.

OglafNov 14, 201613 votes

{quoted}

We're going to explore the different buffs based off the type of dragon killed again at some point. It hasn't had enough testing, and does have some issues, so at least for now we're pulling it in favor of the Armor/MR version now on the PBE. Might or might not return someday.

DON'T. DO THIS.

I beg of you. Don't.

Her old passive was one of more solid parts of her kit. Don't switch it to this... this... gimmicky, unreliable garbage. Just buff up her ultimate and leave her alone. Making her ultimate both perform better and feel more "Wow!" was all that was really needed for Shyvana.

GixiaNov 15, 20164 votes

If you can completely remove the passive and increase the base stats by 5 and base stat growth by .083, and nobody would notice a difference, then that is not a solid passive.

Big LincolnNov 14, 201610 votes

Why are you doing this? Nobody enjoys having power in their kit allocated entirely to an objective. Further, it doesn't promote any active gameplay or even enhance any part of her kit. I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish here. If you HAVE to change her passive, I feel like it should be more representative of her being half-dragon, like getting tankier as a fight progresses thanks to hard scales or something.

It's better than the first dragon passive you put on PBE but there's nothing wrong with just having some extra stats. It works; no need to fix it.

AtanchanNov 15, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rREex5ln,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-14T22:38:35.895+0000)

Nobody enjoys having power in their kit allocated entirely to an objective.

I feel like this is a generalization only someone who doesn't enjoy taking objectives can make.

Big LincolnNov 15, 20162 votes

what kind of retard argument is this?

i don't need to have shit in my kit forcing me to an objective for me to want to take the objective

it's already proven to be a shitty idea in the past, there's no reason to put it on another champion

AtanchanNov 15, 20162 votes

I have never heard Kindred's, Morde's, and Azir's interaction with objectives being called shitty as ideas. In fact, the only real issues I've seen people have with them are either related to the champions already having a lot of other tools or concerns towards how much power such unreliable tools take out of their more reliable ones.

Big LincolnNov 15, 20164 votes

Kindred 's passive works on champions and monsters. it also makes her completely feast/famine and i'd be all for removing it

Mordekaiser dragon ghost is the same way. he's either bullshit unfair when he has it or he stands around mid twiddling his thumbs

Skarner spires. we've all seen what happened with those

Azir 's turret passive is ignored because it's one the least obnoxious things about his horribly bloated kit. i would not be surprised to see it trimmed off and i wouldn't be sad to see it go

objective-based passives are awful. don't put more of them in the game.

MrWasjigNov 15, 20162 votes

I feel like this is a generalization only someone who doesn't enjoy taking objectives can make.

Big Lincoln has already disputed this but tying power to objectives on the map is just an awful idea, it horribly restricts a champion's power and usually takes up a lot of their power budget.

Take Skarner for example, his spires are not interesting in the slightest being nothing more than a "stats ring". They also take up a large portion of his power, as well as restricting his play to the jungle. Some people might wanna take him top, but they get to eat shit because they'll miss out on a loada free stats.

Then Look at Morde, his dragon ghost was basically a bribe to get people to lay him botlane after his atrocious Juggernaut rework. But that in itself has an inherent problem beyond just being completely broken if strong.....no other map has a dragon! So that aspect of his kit is totally worthless on any other map in the game.

And that'd just to name two of them....

Solari FortuneNov 14, 20165 votes

Might I suggest still giving her the Level scaling as well just in case she cannot secure any dragons

bad arcade kittyNov 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Might I suggest still giving her the Level scaling as well just in case she cannot secure any dragons

so have she lost the level scaling? it is not clear from the original post

RiotMeddlerNov 14, 20164 votes

She did. The reason for that is that we've put a lot of power into other parts of the kit, the ult in particular (bonus health and uninterruptible). We've got a bit of room to buff Shyvana probably (pre-season's a harder time to judge balance). Our conclusion from balance testing though is that we need to remove some power somewhere to partially pay for other buffs though. Conclusion was that the passive was one of the best places to do that.

Hinata RabbitNov 15, 201622 votes

So you:

-Nerfed her Q -Removed Devour -Removed SotA -Nerfed Fervor -killed farm jungling as a viable method -Removed Scaling Arm/Mr -Nerfed Human form E -Made a less reliable and worse version of her current passive

+Made ulti unstopable +Made ulti give HP +Buffed E on immobile targets

I fail to see how she is in any way a spot where removing power is necessary. her entire play style of jungling is a style you're trying to kill but you wont compensate her in a way that makes her playable the way you want jungle played.

I think she could stand to use a little more love

Have you considered giving her stackable buffs based on dragon kills like how old season 5 dragon worked (so her getting a buff wasnt RNG based, just based around if she got the dragon) and keeping the dragon damage boost?

these changes really hurt shyv top the most which a lot of other shyvana mains i talk with really hurt from

GixiaNov 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinata Rabbit,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rREex5ln,comment-id=0005000000000002000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-15T01:09:27.584+0000) -Nerfed her Q -Removed Devour -Removed SotA -Nerfed Fervor -killed farm jungling as a viable method

This is absolutely not true. The thing about farm jungling is that junglers who can power farm double as amazing counter junglers, and the changes to increased camp respawn timers means that counter jungling is more effective. Counter jungling was already one of Shyvana's greatest strengths (since it sure as hell isn't her ganks), so the changes to farm jungling actually benefit Shyvana if you're playing her correctly.

-Removed Scaling Arm/Mr -Made a less reliable and worse version of her current passive

These two are the exact same thing. The scaling Arm/MR isn't removed, it's just less reliable. If anything, the scaling goes even higher now, it's just much harder to do.

-Nerfed Human form E

+Made ulti unstopable +Made ulti give HP +Buffed E on immobile targets

+Buffed BotRK +Buffed Guinsoo's +Increased W radius in dragon form +New masteries like Battle Trance

these changes really hurt shyv top the most which a lot of other shyvana mains i talk with really hurt from

I don't see how. Half the negatives you listed don't even apply to top lane.

SkyroarNov 15, 20164 votes

{quoted}

+New masteries like Battle Trance

To be honest, no current keystone mastery is fully optimal to shyvana. Fervor's on hit bonus was nerfed to extra AD, while shyvana's ratios are low. SoA is out. Battle Trance only applies to her ult, and even then, it is unreliable because of the weird hitbox. Windborne speed may potentially be the best, but it's also in the worse trait line a shyvana player would want, as the champion is all about dps and defense (aka, 1st and 3rd lines).

Ultimately, Shyvana is a champion without a real keystone mastery.

GixiaNov 15, 20161 votes

Battle Trance is the one that gives her 5% stacking damage over 5 seconds in battle (tier 4), you're thinking of Courage of the Colossus. None of the keystones are great, but I think that Grasp of the Undying is fine, and gets better because of the change to her ult to give bonus health. Even Courage of the Colossus though becomes better with these changes, since her ult becoming unstoppable makes it more consistent to hit with.

Captain AishiNov 15, 20162 votes

and battle trance is actually terrible on shyvana because in most fights people tend to disengage from you after at most 3 seconds unless they're a champion that straight up beats you in an all-in (ex:Trundle) where the same mastery favors them even more anyway :(

Captain AishiNov 15, 20164 votes

yeah, as someone who mains toplane shyvana, I really dislike the E, W and passsive changes so far, it's really upsetting

GixiaNov 15, 20161 votes

In what way does top suffer from the E and W changes?

Captain AishiNov 15, 20164 votes

if you're in a hard lane matchup you can still CS with E, but now your opponent will be able to bodyblock it because it does low damage and is on a high cooldown

and the W burn trail is really good for when you all in or escape with your ult through someone, to make them run through your damage to run to their tower/chase you (when you activate W then ult, your ult will leave a trail of fire from your W in your path)

GixiaNov 15, 20161 votes

The W burn trail is still there but it's on her E now. It explodes either on first champion hit, or when it hits a targeted location, whichever comes first. If you're far enough in front of the opponent that you can lay fire in their path, then you're also far enough in front that you can drop E at your feet or just a bit in front, clip them with the edge of the explosion for , and make a large circle of fire that they have to run through still. Similarly you can drop it if you're running. If anything, the new fire will be harder to avoid since it makes a large circle, meaning it'd be more difficult/time consuming for the enemy to try and go around then it would be to sidestep the burning trail from W.

I did not consider an opponent simply standing in front of E and eating it to block CS, so that is a downside I suppose, though if you're getting pushed out of lane that hard I feel like, with the lengthy CD being what it is, it's not really going to get you that much extra CS to begin with.

Captain AishiNov 15, 20164 votes

it's usually good enough to get 3-4 minions/wave as it currently stands, so it makes a big difference

also the E's burn zone is static, which just makes shyvana even more vulnerable to kiting, so it's another downside of it :(

ZelorxonNov 15, 20163 votes

Can you explain more in depth what you're looking at while you're testing changes? I gave several useful directions around here in the boards, seasoned why not with some rants and complaints, but when you get to the bone you have a clear idea on what i know about shyvana, your last passive (the 10% one) is one of the most awful things that could ever happen to shyvana, i don't know why you have a passion for nerfing her (especially in stealthy ways), maybe because it's too oppressive against inexperienced players, but lowering her passive resistances is the best way to cripple her and send her out of the game with a simple one move, and her early game is already something that a shyvana player should be afraid of, it doesn't need to be nerfed further. Especially because shyvana, for real, doesn't have any spike that could make her look even remotely overpowered and in need of a tuning. If you want to discuss shyvana more, feel free to hit me up, even if at first look i don't seem anything special, i know what i'm doing so i think i can give pretty interesting insights, especially about my main role and champion.

The Blue RajahNov 15, 20162 votes

It's also not entirely clear, does killing elder dragon increment her passive? It would be really weird if it didn't.

RiotMeddlerNov 15, 20164 votes

It does yes.

VenedictosNov 15, 20161 votes

Are you guys confident in these changes? A dragon form Shyvana on live, feels like she's a huge dragon wreaking havoc in the battlefield. I'm okay with her ult being unstoppable, but the bonus HP feels wierd. Applying her E debuff to a stack of enemies and then using Q for massive damage also felt good. I have not played her in the PBE at all, but these are just my thoughts. I like the idea of moving her into a more control-oriented jungler like Nunu, but I don't want her "huge dragon destroying everything" feel to go away just for her to be more powerful. Maybe it would be cooler to go back on that bonus HP and give her doubled resistances from passive?

GesterrNov 15, 20162 votes

Your complaints seem rather odd, considering the PBE changes by in large enhance everything about that especially finally being unstoppable during ult. The bonus HP will also be more visible than resists making you look a lot stronger as a dragon and synergizing better with the resists on her passive as well as enhancing her mid game where HP is stronger than resists. It's rather confusing as to why you think getting up to 350 hp is weird because that's all you say which isn't very constructive criticism (and that's a lot of HP, that's 50 more that SotA used to give and that was broken and removed).

VenedictosNov 18, 20161 votes

I'm not writing a thesis here, I'm letting my feelings towards these changes be known. But please, read again. I am not talking about her numbers or questioning whether that will net her a buff or a nerf. I'm talking about her fantasy as a half-dragon who at her high moment gets to wreck the battlefield. To that purpose, her ultimate granting her double resists from passive makes her kit feel more coherent. Reading "your passive bonuses are doubled for the duration of this effect" makes you care more about your passive and pushes you to play with it in mind.

RaxistaichoNov 15, 20162 votes

I do have to ask, how do you justify saying that an underperforming champion needs to "pay" for buffs?

The Yetii RiderNov 14, 20161 votes

I appreciate the effort, but can you clarify why you're making the % damage amp apply to Smites as well? I thought one of the reasons we just didn't have damage amps on true damage was because it messes with the clarity of it?

RiotMeddlerNov 14, 20163 votes

That's just a bug. Should be fixed tomorrow.

SkyroarNov 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We're going to explore the different buffs based off the type of dragon killed again at some point. It hasn't had enough testing, and does have some issues, so at least for now we're pulling it in favor of the Armor/MR version now on the PBE. Might or might not return someday.

Have you ever considered a juggernaut item with Attack Speed? It would fit Shyvana so well as a Black Cleaver fits Darius, yet there's nothing like it in the game.

Shyvana is in this weird state where her DPS comes greatly from AS and on-hit effects, but where all AS/ On-hit effect items are full-on DPS while she is a juggernaut that needs others stats. Wit's end is an exception, but it is somewhat weak, somewhat conditional. (Maybe if it offered health instead of MR, or armor in addition to MR?) Alternatively, trinity force could work really well on her, if only her base AD was a bit higher... which juggernauts are meant to have, right?

Clayblob2May 13, 20171 votes

OMg why. why did you removve a passive so beutiful D'X i wanted to palay with her new passive so badly. and then you downgrade it to this mush. why not give her both buffs. why complicate things. i just wanna have some bonuses like reduced damage from towers etc. its my dream to become an elemental dragon Please riot cant you compremise. i want to become a shyvanna maine, and that passive would of made me blow any amount of RP on her. Riot why....also mordekiezer needs a rework. AGAIN....he cant escape so if your gonna make mordekiezer get 4v2 or sometimes 5 man ganked bot, because thats what always happens to me, and if mordekiezer was the unkillabe brute then his he needs more health shield , like 30% per each enemy near her and if mordekiezer was a Darklord that was selfish and mostly by himself then his E doesnt make sense. his R has to be on like a 60% cooldown, he needs more speed he needs to be thinner and cockier on the upper torso and throng horselike legs. like a Dark-night. give him the essential kit to help deal with stuff like atleast 1 v 3.5 . make mordekiezer a cocky brute, not a FAT FOOT ELEPHAANT brute. Dem feet are UGLY , Riots Design team, and rework areas seemed to missed karthus in the mage update( Hes q is had to lanne with and so as his e, he gets ganked alot because he's slow and eazy to catch) is lacking on Mordekiezer. how about the Dark Prince aproach. like the elfs from lord of the rings, were Mordekiezer is a castaway banished elf from sorakas race that like inducing pain to people instead of heal them....Then again Karthus is the complete opposite of Soraka

Clayblob2May 14, 20171 votes

It needs a wider Variety, Like one for the twisted Treelines One for the sumoners rift One for Poro king One for Asention

It should be for all unique jungle Monsters

OglafNov 14, 20165 votes

Straight-up stats might be boring, but it is tested and true. A solid and reliable Passive.

No need to muck about with it, Rito.

MrWasjigNov 15, 20163 votes

The thing is Riot seems to be vehemently against things that "Just work". No nothing is allowed to just work in this game!

It has to be some stacking buff, three hit passive bullshit that does %MaxHP true damage! Or some other stupid nonsense...

They just can't leave stuff alone that are, for lack of a better phrase, boring but practical. I mean it's not like the rest of Shyv's kit is boring, you get to turn into a freaking dragon for crying out loud!

ProfirixNov 14, 20164 votes

+5armor/mr increase per dragon seems pretty lame. If you get denied dragons, you basically have no passive. Granted, I'm interested in seeing her get dragon at level 4-5 lol. If only she took 10% less damage from dragons too, she could sneak dragons early.

sloverlordNov 15, 20161 votes

She can already take dragon at lv4 without backing on live, with the buffs to damage it becomes easier. The biggest problem is if you get denied even once, it feels real bad now.

OglafNov 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

She can already take dragon at lv4 without backing on live, with the buffs to damage it becomes easier. The biggest problem is if you get denied even once, it feels real bad now.

Except she'll take a lot more damage from the dragon now. She'll be significantly weaker early now.

OglafNov 14, 20162 votes

Her Passive was the one thing they didn't need to change in her kit.

What did they do?

Change it for no reason!

SkyroarNov 15, 20161 votes

Her old passive was boring, so it needed change. I'm afraid, however, that the new passive is too conditional and too subtle/ invisible to be any less boring.

BoundaryBreakerNov 15, 20163 votes

So what if it's boring? It was good, but not OP. It worked when you needed it to and people knew exactly what they would be fighting against when they saw her and what to do about it. Needs no change from live IMHO.

AIQNov 15, 20162 votes

I would hope that you'd realize that yes its a buff the ult is, but IMO it should be tagged on solely as a buff she shouldn't have to pay for something that should've been a part of her kit from day one. I don't see why her passive needs to be nerfed to get a champion that has been nerfed directly or indirectly many times a small buff.

The mini game aspect is fine so long as its not difficult for me to reach the same stats that I had "given" to me before. You think its easy to get 3 dragons every game to break slightly less than even?

That's why I believe she should only need 2 dragons to even out on her old passive more would be a bonus since its harder than just leveling up.

GixiaNov 15, 20161 votes

Considering one of Shyvana's intended weaknesses is 'easy to kite', having an uninterruptible gap closer goes an enormous way towards diminishing that weakness. As a Shyvana main, I'm very happy for this change because getting interrupted mid-ult is unbelievably frustrating, but at the same time I'm genuinely surprised that they've chosen to do that because it's contradictory to the way you're supposed to fight against her. As such I would argue that not only is this not a change she should've had from day one, but it's probably not even a buff she should be getting at all. But whatever, they're giving it to her, and I'm going to play it, and enjoy it, and I will accept losing some armor/mr to get it.

Also, killing a dragon to get a buff is not a 'minigame'. That is literally just the game. The benefit for Shyvana is increased over other champions, but it's something that you would be wanting to do anyways because dragon control was already important. And no, getting 3 dragons every game isn't easy, but it's not the most impossibly difficult thing ever either. And sometimes you'll even get 4 dragons or more, and on those occasions it'll even be a buff.

ProfirixNov 15, 20162 votes

Her ultimate is an uninterruptible leap in a single direction without control. Once you get to your target, chances are they will have the tools to get out of your grasp once more, not to mention that from the start of the Dragon's Descent and the end of it, the battle could have shifting significantly; it takes a long time to complete the travel.

Her innate armor/mr was the ONLY thing keeping her viable in this ever-increasing meta of hard cc, slows, and gap closers. It allowed her to survive the inevitable onslaught of damage in order to reach her target. Shyvana MUST take damage in order to reach her target, especially if her target is aware of her. Given that she will be the furthest up of the rest of her team, she absolutely must be tanky to achieve her goals in teamfights.

GixiaNov 15, 20161 votes

If the battle shifts so significantly in the time it takes you to ult that you're now nowhere near the target, then odds are you either mistimed or misaimed it, or both.

Also, you're acting as if her innate tankiness is just completely gone. She still starts with the same 5 she always had, and her ult now gives health. You will end up, compared to live, anywhere from -15 to +15 armor/mr depending on your ability to take dragons, and if you're getting 0 dragons and ending up with -15 armor/mr, odds are that that game was not going to go in your favour anyways.

ProfirixNov 15, 20163 votes

All it does is promote feast or famine gameplay, something melee jungle bruisers do not take well. It is NOT an improvement, which was the point of this rework. Just because she has a small moment of improvement (initiation of ult and the time thereafter spent in dragon form) does not mean the rest of her game needs to be made that much more difficult. Shyvana has a horrible time playing from behind before this rework and making her armor/mr that much more situational only exacerbates the problem.