Boards›Gameplay

Jinx's balance with the PBE update

For Carthage··7 votes·2,595 views

Edit: Since you guys are now so far up your own ass you look vaguely like this:

http://i34.tinypic.com/2ch2nnm.jpg

I'm going to make your research homework much easier.

Hear are Jinx's champion stats for the past 4 patches:

http://champion.gg/champion/jinx/ADC

I know you're scared of numbers, but stop curling up and crying "oppression" just because you can't deal with them.

As we all should know, Jinx right now is an atrociously oppressive, high damage and over-range ADC that's only beaten in range by Kog'Maw (who has 10 more range for 8 seconds on a 17 second cooldown) and Twitch (on his ultimate which has over 80 seconds on cooldown generally and requires an ambush set-up to get the most out of it, on top of lasting only 7 seconds).

So I have a multitude of things to point out about Jinx on how she outperforms others in a fight, and since these boards are a notorious circle-jerk of wanks all too scared to read deeper than 2 sentences into an essay before picking the first point they see and screeching about how wrong that point is (even when it is already proven correct), I'm going to make a nice, condensed and bulleted list for you lot to read so that your heads don't explode from the wall of text.

So here's Jinx's weaknesses first to other ADC's:

  • Low initial attack speed
  • No innate or immediate mobility
  • Low base range (minigun range)
  • Can't effectively build to be a tank
  • Also can't effectively build to be a mage
  • Does not have a 15% lower attack speed while using her rockets
  • She's craaaaaaaaaaaazy (she even has a doctor's note to prove it)

And here are Jinx's strengths:

  • Strong lane harass
  • 700 range upon hitting level 9 (given she levels Q)
  • Ramping AS that stays consistent throughout a teamfight
  • Toggle-able, AoE auto attacks
  • Gains 175% movement speed on kill or assist that decays over 4 6 seconds
  • Does not gain a stacking, 15% AS boost on kill or assist for 4 6 seconds
  • Very solid CC that allows her massive control of the battlefield
  • Global ult on a 60 second cooldown with quite possibly the highest AoE execution damage (while also being the only of its kind) in the game while having above-average base damage in an area

So now I'd like you all to explain why she's balanced.

Let the circle-jerk of blatant denial begin!

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/113/join_in_the_internet_circle_jerk_print-ra11ce31c7e7d40d78d37d8a5a1e777f5_zod_400.jpg

Edit: You're doing a solid job! Not a single argument for why she's actually balanced! It's like you really don't have a brain! (this not applicable to those who admit I have a point)

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/326/657/087.jpg

46 Comments

Solash6 votes

[slayer-jinx-wink]

OperationDEEZ12 votes

WHAT IS THAT. IT'S HIDEOUS https://youtu.be/IK0t38Al4_E?t=2

Solash6 votes

[slayer-jinx-catface]

OperationDEEZ13 votes

I am trying really hard not to lose my shit right now.

Solash5 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

OperationDEEZ13 votes

http://f1.thejournal.ie/media/2013/11/lie_down__try_not_to_cry__cry_a_lot_combo_by_badflippy-d5t596e-630x322.jpg

Krinu1 votes

This entire thread is gold.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

That is some of the best sticker/emote use I've ever seen. +1

OperationDEEZ12 votes

https://robleane.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/gooooood.jpg

Gubaguy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtmbT0I4,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-06T02:03:16.508+0000)

As we all should know, Jinx right now is an atrociously oppressive, high damage and over-range ADC that's only beaten in range by Kog'Maw (who has 10 more range for 8 seconds on a 17 second cooldown) and Twitch (on his ultimate which has over 80 seconds on cooldown generally and requires an ambush set-up to get the most out of it, on top of lasting only 7 seconds).

Caitlyn Im sorry, what?

also:

Ahri, Brand, Cassiopeia, Corki, Draven, Elise, Ezreal, Heimerdinger, Kalista, Kennen, Lissandra, Lulu, Lux, Malzahar, Miss Fortune, Nami, Ryze, Sona, Soraka, Syndra, Tristana (with Draw a Bead at level 1), Twitch, Vayne, Ziggs, Zilean, Annie, Varus, Zyra, Anivia, Ashe

all of those champions have a longer range then jinx (without rockets), and her rockets have been nerfed pretty hard to REDUCE her attack speed by 15%. meaniing you cant even buy attack speed items to compensate becuase its 15% of your attack speed regardless.

For Carthage2 votes

So a bunch of champs out-range her minigun while none of them having the attack-speed steroid inherent in that ability? Oh wow, stop my beating heart.

Without rockets goes without saying that she's outranged (honestly you're just so insightful, especially when I explicitly state that she has low base range in the bullet points. Are you really this dense that even when I simplify everything for you you can't find the fucking information?). But her 700 range is matching multiple champion's abilities and then some while being point-and-click.

Caitlyn now only outranges Jinx with her own stipulations - if an enemy has stepped on a trap or is hit by a net (the worst part being the Net doesn't even have over 1300 range to make her passive range matter). She has poke - that is the extent. Jinx has reliable, consistent range on Cait otherwise along with several times the damage output.

As for your second point, you're just wrong. You can buy AS to compensate it and the % decrease on her rockets is subtracted from the total bonus amount.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_speed

For your viewing pleasure. Or displeasure depending on how you take being wrong as.

Now, if Riot had increased her AA-delay instead of just lowering her attack speed as a "bonus" amount, then it'd be a much more noticeable - and harder to cure - nerf. As it stands, it's a minor annoyance while she then stacks the same bonus on her passive lasting 6 seconds each time she gets a stack - so if she killed somebody, took a tower, killed another champ, took an inhib, and then killed somebody else, welcome to 75% bonus attack speed. I guess minus the 15% on her rockets - because that's such a meaningful nerf. So only 60% bonus attack speed stacked right there and focused on now ripping apart anybody else who'd like to come close to her while she's now bringing your turrets down from 700 range because at that point it hardly matters if she uses her minigun or not.

So would you please give a reason for why Jinx is actually balanced you circle-jerking mouth-breather?

Edit: Figures you don't have a reason. Carry on being just wrong.

Gubaguy2 votes

well

  1. i didnt respodn becuas ei havnt been online for the last 5 hours, and you psoted a WALL of text to go through.

  2. Jinx's weakenss come from the fact ALL she does is auto, she doesnt have any dashes, or leaps, or knockbacks, or even slightly annoying movement dispalcements, she has to sit still and auto, and is EASILY torn apart by any competent vayne, cait, draven, twitch, trist, or lucian.

  3. I have nothing else to say here, you straight up insulted me by saying... "circle jerking mouth breather", so im jsut reporting your post.

For Carthage1 votes

  1. http://champion.gg/champion/jinx/ADC So first of all you're incredibly wrong because all but Twitch have negative winrates against Jinx, and Twitch is because he can ensure that Jinx has literally no safety before getting in on her. That's not a valid weakness when "all Morde does is do damage", or "all Varus does is poke". Such valid argument, very strong, much amaze, wow.

  2. Second, I straight up insulted you for coming off like you have a clue when a) you didn't bother reading my whole post to begin with and focused on one paragraph (oh, just like I said you would! Imagine that!) and b) reply with "Caitlyn I'm sorry what?" with the most pompous of tones while having none of the information to back it up. You had literally nothing right in your post besides the technicality of Cait's rework giving mere instances of when she can possibly outrange her for a single shot. You didn't even have the proper respect to read the post (as I entirely knew people like you wouldn't) and then proceeded to speak as if you had.

So why oh why would I ever show you an iota of respect? You literally matched the exact description of a board circle-jerker that I had given. To the letter.

Gubaguy2 votes

no, my EXACT reply was quoting YOUR comment about her range being "second to none" when half the ADC's in game outrange her, and you twisted my words aroudn to suit your argument. AND youve been nothing but salty as fuck to EVERYONE whose responded ot this.

Im jsut done trying to argue because you only want to fight even if you are wrong.

For Carthage1 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtmbT0I4,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-06T02:03:16.508+0000)

So here's Jinx's weaknesses first to other ADC's:

  • Low base range (minigun range)

I'm sorry, what?

Oh, I did mention the low base range on her minigun which was in the original post that you never bothered to read fully or even skim the damn bullet points.

I actually never twisted your words in the entirety of the post. I pointed out that I made the original assertion in the first post under her weakness, and specified that her AA range reaches 700 on her rockets which is where her primary use and strength come from. I believe what I actually did was ridicule you for failing to take, what, an extra 30 seconds to look at the clearly laid out, bulleted points?

You're coming up with so many excuses to try and make me wrong and diverting from the original point to try and do so - which is that your comments were, close to the maximum extent (I did give you Caitlyn's rework having spots of longer range on her AA's) wrong.

In fact, I think I'll bring in some help to convey this point further...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_lRg8MsB0k

But I'm going to be a sport and step back to the biggest point here:

**You didn't. Read. The post. ** You lived up to the exact definition of a circle-jerker - somebody who basically just steps in with absolutely little to no argument besides "Oh I think this and therefore I'm right" - in every shape of the phrase. You could have said "I don't think she's OP and here are some reasons, but that's just me", you could have said "I may not have played against some good Jinx's/a coordinated team with a Jinx, but here's what I've experienced so far" - but no, you came in with a false point with lacking information and no consideration for all parts of the whole that I even listed for you. In their entirety. No, I didn't connect all of the little dots for you (though originally I was) because I would have liked for, just once, the gameplay section to finally prove that they're capable of even the smallest bit of complicated thought.

You didn't. You couldn't. And that's just the worst part.

Godaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtmbT0I4,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-06T09:58:44.933+0000)

I'm sorry, what?

Oh, I did mention the low base range on her minigun which was in the original post that you never bothered to read fully or even skim the damn bullet points.

I actually never twisted your words in the entirety of the post. I pointed out that I made the original assertion in the first post under her weakness, and specified that her AA range reaches 700 on her rockets which is where her primary use and strength come from. I believe what I actually did was ridicule you for failing to take, what, an extra 30 seconds to look at the clearly laid out, bulleted points?

You're coming up with so many excuses to try and make me wrong and diverting from the original point to try and do so - which is that your comments were, close to the maximum extent (I did give you Caitlyn's rework having spots of longer range on her AA's) wrong.

In fact, I think I'll bring in some help to convey this point further...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_lRg8MsB0k

But I'm going to be a sport and step back to the biggest point here:

**You didn't. Read. The post. ** You lived up to the exact definition of a circle-jerker - somebody who basically just steps in with absolutely little to no argument besides "Oh I think this and therefore I'm right" - in every shape of the phrase. You could have said "I don't think she's OP and here are some reasons, but that's just me", you could have said "I may not have played against some good Jinx's/a coordinated team with a Jinx, but here's what I've experienced so far" - but no, you came in with a false point with lacking information and no consideration for all parts of the whole that I even listed for you. In their entirety. No, I didn't connect all of the little dots for you (though originally I was) because I would have liked for, just once, the gameplay section to finally prove that they're capable of even the smallest bit of complicated thought.

You didn't. You couldn't. And that's just the worst part.

it is called being immobile and dying to any assasin or hard engage like malp yasuo if you think having no dashes as an adc isnt a severe con you are to stupid to argue with

For Carthage1 votes

First of all, *too - don't call somebody stupid only to look like an asinine buffoon yourself.

Second of all, You named off Malphite and Yasuo which, given Malphite has basically a split second to react to his ult and a wide area to hit it with and fucking Yasuo which is already named the bain of ADC's by half the community to begin with is probably the most idiotic retort on the face of the planet. Vayne even loses to Yasuo - you saying that Vayne didn't deserve the nerf? Okay.

"Immobile" is even such an idiotic term here because Gangplank's considered immobile and yet he outruns 90% of the champions in the game - just because it's not a "Oh I'm here nao" thing doesn't suddenly name the champ as an immobile one. Ahri had "mobility on her ult and that's it" before her Q change, and now she's considered "a mobility mage" - sorry, what? The "immobile" argument is a horrendously inconsistent one in all cases and points, and you're an idiot for never having the mental fortitude to figure it out for yourself.

Did I mention that assassins basically counter every single ADC besides Ezreal and Kindred? Because assassins counter basically every single ADC besides Ezreal and Kindred, for obvious reasons (Ezreal having a minor delay on a blink and Kindred literally just refusing to die for the duration). Like, that is their job. And let's even ignore the fact that assassins have been weaker as of late and have been consistently outperformed by their mage counterparts since the majority of AP itemization right lends to sustained damage rather than burst damage - and what do assassins do? Buuuuuuuurst, my god we worked that problem out together, kids, great job! Excellent job reasoning that out!

But let's just ignore your incredible undeniable bias just pointed out by... your name.

Gee, I wonder why you might want your champion protected from being brought to line with the other ADC's. I certainly just cannot figure it out. Would you like to tell me why? 'Cause I certainly can't figure out why. Gosh, it couldn't be self-interest, could it? Cooooooooooould it?

Zorae422 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtmbT0I4,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-06T02:03:16.508+0000)

  • Global ult on a 60 second cooldown with quite possibly the highest execution damage in the game while having above-average base damage in an area

Garen

Otherwise, you forgot that she shreds towers like an insane person. Oh, the support and adc went back at the same time at level 6? Well your tower is now 50% lower than it was before you can get back to lane (after the AS nerf they recently gave to her mini gun, before that it was 2/3 the tower's health).

And that between her passive/chompers she makes a decent split pusher late game (provided she managed to get a little fed early).

But hey, she performs poorly if you "get up in her face" I believe is how riot described her "weakness". So as long as she's not being babysat by Thresh, Ali, or Kench you should be fine. Right?

For Carthage1 votes

Amumu Braum Darius JarvanIV Gragas Galio Nautilus {{AnyothervarietyofCCtanksthatcanpeelforherorjuststandintthewayingeneral}}

I more tried to just list her face-value statistics and was hoping people could put 2 and 2 together. The ramping AS was supposed to imply her ability to shred things. Unfortunately, nobody here tries to put 2 and 2 together (or even attempts to finish reading the entire post).

You do bring up a valid point with Garen, so I'm going to change it to AoE execute.

Although honestly I'm pretty sure hers is the only AoE execute ability.

KonohanaSakuya232 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused] Really? and I suppose vayne is a saint compared to jinx.

For Carthage1 votes

Vayne actually never outperformed Jinx.

http://champion.gg/champion/vayne

http://champion.gg/champion/jinx/ADC

She had higher winrates in very late game than in the earlier game because if Jinx's team wasn't shutting out the competetion already, usually it just meant the Jinx wasn't going to carry. At least empirically that's how the games play out.

Fact of the matter is that Jinx has always been stronger as a champion. Vayne's just a better duelist that was more suited to the "I'm going to solo-carry because my team sucks" atmosphere of solo-queue.

And now that's going to end because 5-man solo-queue is coming.

And I'm going to really enjoy bringing this post back up in the coming months with an "I told you so".

KonohanaSakuya231 votes

If anything I somewhat agree with some of your points but saying she is too powerful is a bit of a stretch if u watch some lcs games both champs had their moments. I know lcs is not be all end all but it does set a bar somewhat cause it can show what champs can really do with really good players. I enjoy this discussion so lets keep it civil yeah?[slayer-jinx-catface]

For Carthage1 votes

If we're going off of the bar that the LCS set, Jinx outperforms Vayne drastically while also being picked more. Graves and Corki honestly see far more play than either of those two, so again, going off the bar the LCS set, you'd think those two would be the strongest ADC's just via playrates.

But looking at victories, Graves and Corki both come up pretty much even and were focused in teams set to winning games early and quickly - Jinx and Vayne on the other hand went into games meant for teamfights. By and large, the games Jinx wins in are ones built around her - peeling, keeping her alive, that sort of thing. Only one team built like this failed to do this for her, and she was facing Leona/Vi/Maokai/Graves/Karthus - which unless you're packing Braum, Naut, Galio, and Lulu, you're not about to protect your squishies from that onslaught of terror. Not to mention Leona/Graves has been the most notorious all-in level 2 pairing since they were added, and a snowball on those two in a professional setting just means a full-game snowball.

Digressing, Vayne on the other hand had teams that did things. Not really teams built around her - just teams that did things and stuff. The difference between Jinx and Vayne - and why people have the same failure of realization about Jinx as they do about Azir - is that Vayne is an ADC that largely can be left alone with an enemy champ and trusted to not bend over and take it up the backside. She's a great duelist and self-peeler, so unless she's absolutely dogpiled and bursted in the blink of an eye she's going to be fine - Jinx only has the stipulation that you as a team will have to see her through the first kill. That's it. Afterwards, she basically outruns every single champ in the game and outranges them to boot, so if she was in trouble before, a kill will see her not in it anymore. People continue to underestimate the value of basic movement speed in getting away and staying positioned and I can't for the life of me understand how this concept is so difficult to grasp.

She's literally an artillery cannon in this game - no shit it's going to do nothing if you allow the enemy to just run up and hit it with rocks, but it'll completely annihilate enemies if you give it more attention than you give to your hair growing.

KonohanaSakuya231 votes

Fair point but it seems her passive is her greatest asset compaired to other adc's which makes her almost untargetable and out of reach when she uses her rockets. In any case I think with the new marksmen update we will have to see just how much the game will shake up so I will hold all my judgements till then still was a good conversation and glad we kept it civil yeah? Hope we can continue to chat as I had fun talking with ya.

For Carthage1 votes

As it always is with these updates.

But yes, indeed.

Summonerrr 12 votes

For Carthage are you familiar the concept of metastability in physical science? If you look at it from a grander strategic standpoint, Riot, has pretty much walled themselves into a box of conceptual metastability by not changing the foundations of the game BEFORE the supporting aspects and mechanics, and as such the parts that play the biggest part in holding the entire system together (Roles, Gameplay, and Interaction) are simultaneously the least stable.

BTW I read your post, the reason so many people think she's balanced (and provide logical fallacies trying to prove balance exists on a kit level in this game when kit is derived from interaction, which isn't balanced) is because the things holding her in viability SEEM balanced, when they're really...not. It explains a lot of the inconsistencies you're pointed out in the counterarguments you summarily posted.

For Carthage2 votes

Holy shit, somebody with an actual argument (on either side) that also speaks several times more intelligently than I ever bother to.

... It's like. A ray of hope.

A beacon of promise.

The magical rejuvenation of my faith in the community.

You sir. You. And I'm not even being facetious or sarcastic. Thank you.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b0/54/5c/b0545ca90b8c59dbdf198b2e194bd211.jpg

So to your point... yes, I've noticed this since the ADC's rise in ability from season 4 to 5.

While people complained about them doing no damage (which, early game, entirely true due to them being very much item reliant), in season 4 it was an entirely different side of the same problem - that they did no damage only because they basically exploded every fight thanks to assassins.

While Jinx was still relatively strong in season 4, she was outdone by her colleagues Caitlyn and Tristana who, on top of very long ranges, had relatively high safety in comparison to Jinx, meaning if they did get jumped they could still bail out in order to survive to start taking towers. Honestly, if we look at the habits of ADC's, while doing a large amount of the damage in the game in a fair number of games, their by-and-large use has been consistently to tear down the opposing side's towers. The meta since then has shifted, though, to where a lot of the current ADC's can actually stand to fight without being nuked by assassins immediately, which means that instead of focusing solely on the ability to bail out of a fight, the favorite ADC's have been those that can dish out reliable damage while staying alive (explaining Tristana's and Jinx's popularity in the LCS). The thing with Tristana and Jinx being that both have very high ranged safety, very high damage, and very high tower-taking potential that can lead to very easy snowballing. Where Jinx fell short before was that she had no innate "gtfo" button - all of her safety was built into her passive, which means that now that she can survive long enough to see it take effect (thanks to the item changes bumping assassins out of the meta), she's demonstrating far more safety than ever before.

It's why if you have a Zed or a Fizz in the game, Jinx tends to perform more poorly - because you've actually grabbed champions meant to counter her. The balance not favoring these champs, however, means that even if Jinx is performing more poorly, your team will also suffer due to you having a champion that is not complimented by existing itemization. For example, Morell is not really meant to be for burst champs since the idea is to 100-0 in a matter of seconds, yet it's favored amongst them now simply because more is required for assassins to accomplish their objectives - 20% cooldown means more ability spamming, and the grievous wounds finally means more since it'll take that extra few seconds to ensure that you secure the kill - and that extra few seconds can be more than enough for somebody to shield back up or lifesteal themselves back into a fight.

If AP items start showing some more favoritism towards bursting people down, we could very well see Jinx become "balanced" in her own right again - as it stands, though, in the current meta and likely in the upcoming one, Jinx is going to be a lot of trouble until people accept the shift of meta in her favor.

Puynsi2 votes

http://imgick.mlive.com/home/mlive-media/pgmain/img/saginawnews_impact/photo/18470325-standard.jpg BUILD A GOD DAMN WALL!

For Carthage1 votes

http://i33.tinypic.com/20u672q.jpg

There's multiple here. Choose one.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

she is balanced but i do feel riot should reduce the crit damage her AOE does also her ult does take some time to ramp up she can't just fire it point blank.

For Carthage1 votes

"Some time."

= 1 second

= travel time for it to reach a little more than her max AA range

(also, psst, the execution damage doesn't scale down at all and is 25% of missing health at first level, 35% at max level)

Edit: You guys are so good at downvoting! Keep it up! Make sure not to post any kind of argument disproving the point but only basically say "No because I don't like you using logic and being right"!

Godaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtmbT0I4,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-11-06T02:28:57.840+0000)

"Some time."

= 1 second

= travel time for it to reach a little more than her max AA range

(also, psst, the execution damage doesn't scale down at all and is 25% of missing health at first level, 35% at max level)

Edit: You guys are so good at downvoting! Keep it up! Make sure not to post any kind of argument disproving the point but only basically say "No because I don't like you using logic and being right"!

I'd post an arguement to why she isnt but naturally you would downvote me and call me a filthy jinx player.

For Carthage1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crazy for Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtmbT0I4,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T02:22:11.172+0000)

I'd post an arguement to why she isnt but naturally you would downvote me and call me a filthy jinx player.

I'd post an argument pointing out your blatant excuse for me having already disproven your pathetic argument that's as outdated as "Feral Flare is OP", but you'd be so caught up in your own ass convincing yourself that your champ's so hard to play as that she's not unbalanced.

I certainly did just call you a Jinx player - it's entirely what you are. Doesn't change the fact you're so wrong on so many levels that I'm fairly convinced that paint chips are your primary source of nourishment.

But here, instead of me having to explain it to your Neanderthal brain, I'll just let you take a look at her empirical statistics.

http://champion.gg/champion/jinx/ADC

Vayne needed a nerf but Jinx doesn't with better statistics across the board? Okay. Solid. Thumbs up.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/53966480.jpg

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

Mad cause bad Git gud

For the record, even if i would post a counter argument, you'd still cry "circle jerk" and "op" , so i wont waste my time with pointless arguing with a person who's mind is already set and locked.

Also downvoted :)

For Carthage1 votes

Thanks for proving my point to the letter.

Funny part is you don't even have a valid counter argument to use. Unless you wish to prove otherwise?

I've already proven that if somebody's giving a counter-argument, I've got the information to back myself up and disprove them. So you're literally just going off of an assumption to excuse you not having anything to even say.

Talkrr1 votes

This is actually aids, she's balanced. Really all I have to say. There are several other champs that aren't balanced and you bash on Jinx, you aren't even arguing with these people. You're calling them circle jerkers because they believe the champ they use or play against commonly is balanced. So please chill out take a Ritalin or something, no need for you to be bashing on them for voicing an opinion as you disproving them is enough. [slayer-jinx-catface]

For Carthage1 votes

I actually am arguing with them. They originally weren't even providing valid arguments as they didn't even read the entire original post. They picked one particular point and then misrepresented it to the fullest extent or didn't even bother to research what they said. There's also only been 2 arguments against the point, and the first one I didn't even bash on - I gave them a completely valid counterargument.

You act like just because you bothered to post you deserve to be treated like somebody who put any thought into what they said whatsoever when you really haven't - once again, you're nitpicking. As I said you guys would. You live up to the original assertion with such aplomb that I might even mistake myself for a psychic.

Once again, I'm going to say this: why should I show an iota of respect to somebody not even willing to bring forth a proper, well thought-out argument that addresses all point presented and gives actual back up to a statement? I have various statistics and empirical evidence - drawing from professional examples in the LCS to just simple solo-queue tried-and-true proof - to back up what I've said. Meanwhile, you cling to your assertion that she's completely balanced with literally nothing to say, nothing to add to the conversation. You simply point and cry "liar". You really shouldn't even be on the gameplay boards if this is the best you've got to offer. That's what's annoying.

But here, let me just try and copy you guys with some examples.

"Veigar is not OP. Stop QQ'ing and learn to deal." "Darius is entirely simple to counter with smart play. Seriously. Like, come on." "Fiora is entirely vulnerable to CC and lockdown as a squishy melee champion. I believe she's balanced based on this." "Gangplank actually requires some know-how to play and can be entirely fallible if you're aware of his tricks. Come on, stop crying about it." "Vayne's never even reached the same popularity that Jinx has had right now, or the same winrates at all. In fact, Jinx has just about always been performing stronger than Vayne this entire season. Therefore, there was no need to nerf her."

Funny thing is, the last part is entirely true. At all stages (besides the necessity of the nerf for the sake of solo-queue).

CoolKnightST1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

For Carthage1 votes

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpryuat5xz1qcrxj1o1_500.gif

Zair Umbras1 votes

Welp. Guess I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in with numbers.

Jinx as of the PBE update has a 15% AS slow on her Rockets, 17% AS at level 18, a base of .625 AA's per sec.

Since this thread is about her Rockets, or at least that's what three of the first 4 issues are about, we'll go ahead and stare at her attack speed with Rockets overall.

Basic ADC build is IE+Shiv/PD+BT/DD/Mercurial+LW+Defensive. All the AS/Crit items max at 40% AS, so she'll have 65% from items (Zerker Grieves since... well... AS OP?) and 17% from leveling. That's 82% bonus. 82% on .625 is 1.1375 AA's per sec, now we reduce that by the 15% since it takes place AFTER, so she's at .966875, which is about .97ish attacks per sec. If the enemy gets... Okay, we know they WILL bet getting a Randuin's since it's a pretty damn good item now with 450 health and 60 armor plus a 15% AS slow and 10% less crit. Shiny stuff, right? So .97 now becomes .82 (You minus 15% of the .97 since AS slows are multiplicative and all), sooooo she's hitting at half speed of most ADC's, but she gains 10% more damage and her AA's are AoE. Honestly? That's a pretty good trade off.

I suppose I should also note the mass AoE from Fishbones doesn't proc on-hits, only the main target hit will be hit by on-hit effects. This means the AoE doesn't proc lifesteal. Most probably already know that though, or at least Jinx players do. Funny enough, the AoE damage does proc things like Rylai's, but not Lifesteal. Death's Deal will be changing that since it heals for 12% of all physical damage rather than just normal life steal.

She's got pretty high DPS when popping her minigun, but with being 525 range with no escape? Yeeaaah, she better get something for being that short of range.

Honestly, her harass in lane isn't going to be all that strong in comparison with most Marksman now. Every ADC but Vayne, Twitch, and Ez will be able to trade off given she stands behind minions or side steps well. She might be able to poke Graves, but if he E's at her, she's a dead woman because those AA's at all points in the game hit like a truuuuuuuck.

For Carthage1 votes

So this has a solid focus on her early game and concentrating on what she's getting stat-wise - what I'm asking is how she stacks up later against her competition. Currently, she blows everyone out of the water in basically all points of the game - with the PBE update, the 15% AS slow affects her early game face-tanking while throwing around her power solidly - however, jump to later in the game when her passive starts coming more and more invasive in combat, and she's been proving to be terrifyingly oppressive with any sort of peel whatsoever since 2 kills/assists under her belt makes her fire 15% faster than live, and if at any point she live to see three people die, you might as well cut your loses then and leave - you can't out range her on autos other than with the handcannon (given she's not procing the same thing) and she's basically firing at speed with the standard ADC now. You'd find yourself exploding before you could reach her.

This is even ignoring the end-game Jinx-on-baron horror that results if she gets a tower down while buffed - suddenly she's able to rip down your tower and inhib for bonus AS before turning her AS steroid on your team. Or, if her team has a suitable tank, now she can have them soak up the turret aggro to quickly stack some more.

You're either about to be forced into a fight you're not prepared for and lose all of your towers soon after, or you're about to let them take your towers while you cower because should you even try to interfere you'll be nuked faster than you can say "Nagasaki". The AS decrease on her Q was a good move - adding a buff to her passive that stacks finitely in only that there's an AS cap was just compensation she never needed, and any kind of coordination or teamwork is going to see this abused to high heaven on live if it reaches that far (and dear god we can only hope it won't).

Zair Umbras1 votes

Eh. The whole AS steroid after getting a kill won't be all that powerful when you think about it. 15% of total sounds like a lot, but her scaling per level is near non-existent, so she'd need the Shiv or PD to make it work. I'd personally guess she'd get the new range increaser so she'd become a turret like Kog.

The AS boost per kill just makes her seem like she's going to be stronger than she actually will be. The entire point of people using the rockets is more than just for safety. When you think about it, the minigun ends up getting to an AS where you CAN'T orb walk or stutter step. You'll be stopping too quickly to actually get anywhere. While the Minigun lets her shred towers, it gives so much AS and most of it is completely and utterly wasted unless you're taking a tower or you're hitting some one who's CC'd for days.

This is similar to Kog's 5APS when pressing W. It'll be super powerful in a 'all defend the Kog Turret' and in 1v1's with other ADC's, but virtually worthless against Assassins and Bruisers who can murder a 2k health target in a couple key strokes. If Kog didn't gain range when pressing W though, he wouldn't even be considered decent since you gotta stand still to make use of that AS.

Honestly though, this is a pretty good nerf to her early and mid game while it'll even out or count as a buff to her late game. Currently, she gets IE+Shiv, then she snowballs to high heaven, but this will reduce her snowball potential, reduce her lane poke, and make it to where unless she gets a kill or assist, she's at a large loss of DPS. With Kog now getting the ability to do what Jinx does on top of Trist as well, Jinx is going to lose out in the long run.

Now, I'm not saying any nerf would ever reduce Jinx's play rate. Her kit is FUN. She has two weapons to AA with, one fast for objective shred and dueling, the other slow, but powerful and long ranged for kiting and team fights on top of having that adrenaline rush of a speed boost AND an executing global ulti. She's got things that even if their numbers were crushed, as long as she had her passive and R, she'd still be really fun to play as. She's not a freelo by any means currently, though she is incredibly fun to play as and facing her isn't as oppressive as the old Urgot, current Morde, old Lucian, or the old Sivir back when her W was a toggle. I shudder at the thought of the old Sivir W with Tiamat, IE, and a PD.... Dear god the 1v5's...

For Carthage1 votes

Current Morde's in a league of its own when talking about champions in general - honestly, there's just no looking at past kits and comparing them to his. He's a clusterfuck of design mistakes, not even just number-wise.

But even the Juggernaut reign when they were all considered broken as hell doesn't compare to old champion balance issues - might as well justify all balance by their predecessors then. Thank god Feral Flare wasn't as bad as Xin Zhao, eh? Don't know why they nerfed it - never so much of a problem (see the point here?).

She isn't "freelo" because the community's basically accepted that ADC's cannot be a source of "freelo" since they generally require a team to be centered around them - if you go a team of assassins and then have one ADC, of course they're going to suck absolute shit on buttered toast because the weakness of range is you're supposed to stay at range, and no assassin is about to keep the enemy team from steamrolling over you as an ADC.

I'm entirely aware her kit is an enjoyable one, but so is apparently Yasuo's - doesn't mean she doesn't have some form of balance issues. There's a reason she's been nearing 40% winrates lately - a part of it because Vayne got a small bump. Even before then she had been outperforming Vayne, though, in everything but playrates, and her 20+% playrates were nothing to scoff at. Fact is she legitimately bumps out her competition, the worst part being this AS nerf she's looking at doesn't even really harm her early game so much other than her initial rocket-dueling, which she wasn't supposed to be doing in the first place. Her poke hardly took a hit at all, and her passive applies to her rockets as well, meaning a single kill puts her back where she started - a second kill or assist puts her above where she started. A third one and now we're looking at a significant boost to her damage and a one-sided battle no matter if the rest of her team is dead or not. Not to mention the duration was again raised to 6 seconds - so she practically has a self-centered Sivir ult on her passive at that point. They exasperated the main issue of her right now which is her ability to - as a freaking late-game hypercarry - snowball the ever-loving shit out of a game by the sheer amount of self-utility her passive hands to her. It's one of the things that made Vayne such a piss-off champ - once it starts raining, it'll pour, and once you start losing the fight and she gets a reset, the ability for enemies to ditch out of a fight are slim to none. You either have to hard CC her from 700 units with her firing 500+ crits at the back of your head and having all the speed in the world to sprint around your skillshots (this just speaking midgame even), or you're going to have to stick it out for the rest of the fight because there's no possible way for you to outrun 175% bonus movement speed, so 2.75x her 325-388 MS (doesn't matter too much where you land on that spectrum, it outspeeds every champ in the game without ghost or homeguards).

It's not even really so much the attack speed buff to her passive that's frustrating about it the most - it's that it's stacking, and it's really easy to stack it up and up and out of control. Defending against a siege with her will be a nightmare at this point, and without action it's just going to be a ramping snowball of destruction that'll see her end games multitudes faster than she did before. That's not very solid balancing.

Dominick Destine1 votes

I've been playing a long time and I don't consider Jinx to be in any way oppressive.

If you want a truly oppressive champion, take a look at Vayne and Kalista.

Zyorhist1 votes

I'm not even going to start trying to argue it with you simply because your post is purely written in an offensive format meaning you're unable to see anything that could be used in a valid argument. Lets try this again, and leave the salt in the cupboard.

Kats Pajamas1 votes

You said it yourself, it's because She's Craaaaaaazy.

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