A Skill Game Means Everything should be 50/50

Power Cosmic··5 votes·1,808 views

In a skill game, all champs have to balanced around that. So every 1v1 comes down to skill, and not one kit doing more than another. Not only that but everything would have to scale equally too. More skilled player wins. Like a fighting game. But unlike a fighting game, League is 5v5 and has 100 champs that do not fit that mold.

If you look at Cassi and Kayn it is easy to wonder how can they exist in the same game. Some Kayns are obviously better than others, but he farms and fights pretty easily while not having to lane. Which leads to pretty casual hard carrying. Cassi needs a lot of skill on top of other things. Like a decent lane matchup, a frontline, the other team not being incredibly mobile, setups for her damage, etc. What does Cassi get for her being made as a higher maintenance champ, and what does Kayn lose for his ability to do it all himself?

Players do not understand why they have less fun, but the rewards from playing have disappeared. It is expected and normal to get fed and carry on most all champs. Things that are expected and achieved easily are not rewarding and are really just a downer for when you do not get the expected result. The game is healthier when the real carry isn't expected to get herself fed, but the game needs other carries than marksmen. The real risk in LoL now is seeking rewarding gameplay through trying to achieve something difficult. This is a reason the pro games aren't good now too. As good as they are, it is all about champs that can do the most with the least amount of downside risk. Finding ways to get something done that you can't simply do yourself leads to better and more entertaining games.

Since we are on the topic, it seems very clear if you carry out of the jungle it should not be through ganking. Being able to gank is a weapon within itself that should lead to being able to do stronger ganks and other similar plays.

15 Comments

CrazyMonkeyCZ3 votes

In a skill game, all champs have to balanced around that. So every 1v1 comes down to skill, and not one kit doing more than another. Not only that but everything would have to scale equally too. More skilled player wins. Like a fighting game. But unlike a fighting game, League is 5v5 and has 100 champs that do not fit that mold.

You completely ignored counterpicking as a skill.

Majority of matchups come down to players skill and if they are similar, then to kits, then reading the situation/decision making is important.

More skilled player wins LANE most of the times(results of a game can be further influenced by your teammates and after climbing enough, you will have to rely on your team in some situations unfortunately).

If you look at Cassi and Kayn it is easy to wonder how can they exist in the same game. Some Kayns are obviously better than others, but he farms and fights pretty easily while not having to lane. Which leads to pretty casual hard carrying. Cassi needs a lot of skill on top of other things. Like a decent lane matchup, a frontline, the other team not being incredibly mobile, setups for her damage, etc. What does Cassi get for her being made as a higher maintenance champ, and what does Kayn lose for his ability to do it all himself?

What iron talkshow is this. "Jngler has it easier bcs he doesn't have to lane" lol. Kayn himself is kinda weak early, which already sets up his team into disadvantage. On the other hands, Cass comes down to simple "I have mana, I will kill you".

Also no idea why we are comparing jngler with mid/top laner, but Cass is known to be one of few 1v9 champs if mastered.

Some folks like to put time into learning and mastering their champs to carry and some like simple mechanics and are oriented heavily on macro.

After all, why should all champs have same skill floor/celling?

Players do not understand why they have less fun, but the rewards from playing have disappeared. It is expected and normal to get fed and carry on most all champs. Things that are expected and achieved easily are not rewarding and are really just a downer for when you do not get the expected result.

Carrying is easy? Weird. It would be rewarding to be able to carry, but in current state(since beta, hell even since Warcraft modes and teamgames overall), you are affected by your team, that's where frustration is coming from, being unable to do anything, sometimes you can have 10 cs/m, 0 deaths, 7 kills, ok macro and you will lose(maybe by your own mistakes but it doesn't matter).

Players have less fun, bcs they feel like they are unable to do anything/they think that balancing is weird so they feel like it's more about champs than players and they have less fun(probably you).

Being burnt out is also big part of losing the fun aspect, at some point players will no longer care about winning since they won and lost thousand times.

But no, I'm not having less fun bcs I'm casualy carrying in my elo(idk maybe the best players, when they hit rank 1 can experience it).

Stagnation in learning has big effect as well.

Finding ways to get something done that you can't simply do yourself leads to better and more entertaining games.

But we have this. Yeah, relying on your team is sooooooo much better, it has to be part of teamgame, ik, but come on, you don't believe that it makes it better experience, right?

Power Cosmic1 votes

You do not know the game well, and that is fine. Riot does not want you to think about what should be going on. Just hop on and spam away and have fun, right? No, that is not right. Different types of spells have differing associated value or power. A lot of the most powerful types of isolated spells are engages, for example. The most valuable engage is a "pull." "Why a pull" is probably what you are thinking? Because a pool is the safest type of engage, and there is a lot of value in safety. That is why Blitz or Thresh do not carry. Their ability to pull is extremely valuable/powerful. Then you look at Pyke and Sylas, with the aggregate value in their kit: pulls, cc, movement, knockups, wave clear, and most important damage; they fly in the face of everything, making it you make every champ like them or delete/bury them.

The more a champ can do itself, it suggests LoL is a skill game, which is impossible bc of all the factors at play, but nonetheless what Riot wants. Just play and fight, do no think. Before there are skills within the game, like orb-walking, being quick, or being good at Nidalee or Elise. Being good at those two is different than being good at Akali. Being good on one of the prior champs means the more you can do, while the better you are at Akali the safer you become. Most better made high-skill ceiling champs are risky bc you can only illustrate skill on spells you have (that someone else does not). The price you pay for those spells is safety and utility.

All champs have to be fair bc it is a pvp game with 10 people. So if all champs' kits have a power value of 10, but a dozen have a power of 15, then the game is going to be pretty dumb, like my example of Kayn and Cassi. The way things have gone, champs are not paying for the value of their kit. Sylas has the kit of nothing an aggressive tank that probably dies a lot, bc if he does damage too it is not fair, bc no other champs can do (poke, heal, shield, dash, wave clear, utility ult, pull, knockup, aa buff) what he can. Same goes for Pyke and Aatrox. Champs that do more than everyone else, and damage, are just unfair and go against the theory the genre is built upon. The more tools you have, the less you carry because you do not need to be carried. Singe plays like more of a carry than Kayn, which mean game needs some major changes. Normal players do not know what they really want bc listening to them is how we got here. Damage, like an engage, is a valuable tool in itself.

WalkingInACircle3 votes

There is nothing skilled about flipping a coin. Also, your choice of champion is a part of the game.

Larriet2 votes

So every 1v1 comes down to skill, and not one kit doing more than another.

As someone who plays a heavy rotation of Enchanters, no, I don't want this in any capacity.

Kai Guy1 votes

Right?

Kai Guy1 votes

Even in fighting games you have stand out kits that overperform/underperform and statistical Tier lists built around that. You also don't really have the dramatic gaps in a kits role for anything outside of 1v1 fights as that's what the games designed for.

So every 1v1 comes down to skill, and not one kit doing more than another. Not only that but everything would have to scale equally too. More skilled player wins.

Your comparing the game it seems to the fighter genera. All 1v1s in league need to be about skill so Yuumi should be able to win Jax ? Not so. This is a team game at its core. There is more to it then 1v1. Its not just Win lane win game my friend.

Also chess which is almost universally considered "Balanced" Has a small edge of favoritism to the player who starts.

Power Cosmic1 votes

In fighting games all gamers have the same amount of buttons to do about the same amount of moves. A good player will destroy an okay player 100% of the time regardless of tiers bc it is a skill game. For LoL to be the skilled game they seem to want, that would have to be true as well. They would have to disregard counterpicking, objectives, the need for engages or zoning bc if some champs dont need them, then to be fair no champs should need them. If there are going to be those differences in champs, which there are, then the power curves should reflect that. Hence carries need to be carried until they are carrying.

Kai Guy1 votes

Not all fighters have the same move sets thou, some buttons create multiple hits, different lag times different frames different hitboxes variable damage dealt. Some have gaps between inmput output, multiple "stances/forms that provide more options to a kit.

Disregarding the kit differences, Even things like model size can generate advantages where some fighters due to their hitbox differences are advantaged into some match ups. That's games in general, look at Odd job back in golden eye 64.

In most games a full class interval gap of skill will beat the player below them. Assuming Equal skill your comparison falls apart because there's significant data that points to fighters having subpar kits that fall off near the top tiers of skill.

There are kit differences that impact viability in fighters. They are not remotely as fair as your making them out to be and individual kits make impact. There is no point to a comparison of Higher skill to lower skill, the base assumption in any game of skill Is high skill is proven by your ability to win.

Also a good player vs bad player does not win 100% of the time. They can decided to throw a game. If you ever played with younger family, or folks new to a game and your not a giant fun sucking bag of poorly packaged manure you don't "Try hard" vs them because its gonna be a negative experience. Once they get a basic grasp or grow up a bit you can start to flex your skill but at least give them an opportunity to decided if they enjoy content before doing so.

Power Cosmic1 votes

If you know fighting games, you know you are spouting a bunch of hot air. The good player always beats the okay casual player, period. Skill is the only measuring stick in fighting games.

Kai Guy2 votes

im not spouting hot air. Your "proof" is loaded for the result you want.

Kits are a part of fighters. IN EQUAL SKILL KITS MAKE AND BREAK VIABLE FIGHTERS IN A FIGHER GAME.

"In fighting games all gamers have the same amount of buttons to do about the same amount of moves" I am saying that not every kit is equal. This statement is not an accurate reflection of fighters. I don't feel there should be a need discuss kit depth in relation to fighters? Hitboxes, damage, lag, height, disjoints, hit stuns, model size. ETC should all be very clear indications of kit inequality.

I am calling you out on a clear case where your measurements of fairness are slanted to only support your argument. You cant claim. Leauge is unfair because in equal "skill" champions cant 1v1 the same. Then say this is a failure on the games side because you can in unequal skill in fighters (different game genera btw) crush some one lower skill then you with any kit.

TLDR. Not every fighter game has 100% rooster viability at equal skill in highest Skill matches. Is this a True or false statement?

Power Cosmic1 votes

Fighting games do what they do well. Equal skill is not a thing in 1v1 fighting, the better player wins, so false. You clearly have not thoroughly read my op, and do not get what I am trying to get across. LoL can't be a skill game bc the kits aren't equal. Which goes into the champs that do everything themselves (ur play or skill, limited macro) are woefully out of place and hurt the entire game. With Sylas having so many tools no one else can match, either everyone has to be buffed to make it 50/50, or he has to be gutted.

Kai Guy1 votes

LoL can't be a skill game bc the kits aren't equal.

Again... then fighters cant be a skill game BC the kits are unequal?

I asked a simple 1 or 0 styled question. True or false, yes or no?

Not every fighter game has 100% rooster viability at equal skill in highest Skill matches. Is this a True or false statement?

Should not be a difficult to get a reply to this from you. If you disagree say so. If its true then what exactly is your point because the games suffer the same pitfall of kit disadvantage.

I will provide you my logic in steps and I invite you to correct any errors I make.

Your claiming that league needs to be more like fighters. " So every 1v1 comes down to skill, and not one kit doing more than another."

My issues here.

  1. League is not a 1v1 game in any capacity. Team game. Treat it like one.
  2. Fighter games DO have kits that do more then another inside the context of the game, many kits in fighters have more depth then others. They are not universally mirrored. At some point rooster viability drops off the higher up in skill you go.
  3. Your making LOL about 1v1s when this is not the nature of the game. If I can 1v1 as Janna equally well as any other champion in the game but they lack my utility or CC this is not a FAIR game. The kits are instantly broken because 1v1 is not sole metric.
  4. Despite your comments about how OP Sylas there is a clear indication that skill is still a factor over kit picks. He frequently loses lane and games because other players are more skilled with their picks.

I don't understand how your making a claim that Fighters are well balanced when fighters are often times not well balanced. I just don't get why your claiming lol needs to be balanced for "equal skill" when its by your own admission impossible to do for fighters which your holding up as an example to imitate. I don't think everything can 1v1 is a healthy designee for a moba.

LaceUpXX1 votes

That's not what that means at all.

Power Cosmic1 votes

This is a thread stating it is impossible for LoL to be a good skill based game. The point has already been proven with the game playerbase evaporating as Riot decides to force in champs like Aatrox. Carries are carried til carrying. Early game champs aren't late game champs and have different win conditions. But yeah make some more Akali and see where you head. Season 10 should be about re-teaching (thru LCS) all the players that have joined since 6 how the game is really played.

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