Riot Doesn't Like Macro and it has Hurt the Game

Power Cosmic·Apr 20, 2019·27 votes·14,199 views

The game has gone away from Macro into a Micro-focused one. It was always the wrong move and there is no turning back now. I think a good examples are Zac's old ult vs his new one and Eve's new W & R vs her old ones. The former's is now more precise and largely less effective and Eve is now a sinlge target nuke only champ (even though the ult has aoe). Before Eve's W was just a cleanse/steroid while her ult was big, unique, and very situational in how you used it. Also in general the game encourages a lot of spamming and far less sharp decision making. The game is too big to die, but any type of recovery is in the past. I love the game and the game itself is almost forcing me not to play with how annoying everything is.

I can make a long reply if people are interested listing Macro vs Micro focused champs.

35 Comments

Whisper87Apr 21, 201911 votes

Totally agree. Riot has been steadily favoring micro and mechanics more and more over the years. Even pro players across all regions have mentioned the importance of being able to play "lane kingdom" strategies. It's an culmination of things Riot has compromised on to keep the game culturally relevant. Too hard for casual players to learn how to turn a gold lead into a win? Make the game more snowbally. Game length too long? Make the lane phase more important. Takes too many reps to learn how to team fight well? Make side lane priority more impactful. Casual players don't want to sacrifice gold to play the vision and vision control game? Lower the max amount of wards and ward clearing available. All of this has boiled the game down to a far narrower view. It's all about lane pressure, the ability to skirmish, and understanding your own champ and lane on an individual basis. It takes the highest tier of player to expose the few weaknesses in this style of play, as we saw in the NA LCS finals. This is a very big pivot from years ago, when Riot devs said in a public post that LOL is not supposed to be a game where one person can hard solo carry. I think we all know that this is becoming less and less true over the past 3 years or so.

The superior macro play has gotten hard nerfed. Evidence of this when C9 and CLG were at the top of the LCS, relying on Hai to shotcall and expose narrow map play openings to win games, and CLG relying on their coaching staff to set them up with a near perfect first 5 mins every game. 1 off season patch, and suddenly both of those teams plummeted to middle tier team, and had to heavily revamp lineups and playstyles to fight their way back a couple seasons later.

The 15 minute model is heavily impacting the game industry right now, and I am of the belief that Riot is shooting themself in the foot by buying into it. LOL is meant to be a thoughtful, strategy based game first and foremost. When you listen to casuals who cry for more fighting, faster paced games, complain about winning lane but losing game- and then proceed to not learn how to translate a lane lead into the rest of the map, don't care to learn how to control side waves, complain when the losing team is able to trade objectives with them because they aren't decisive enough, don't want to spend money on wards or learn how to play the vision game...the game becomes super one dimensional and dare I say boring.

It seems counterintuitive because there is more fighting and lots of champs are viable. But many champs are viable because they are able to exploit advantageous lane matchups, or early game combat pressure. So what's happening is that the variety of strategies and avenues to win is becoming extremely, extremely narrow. We're sacrificing options in gameplay in favor of champ diversity and more fighting.

Every team is being forced to play the same game. Strat counters are less meaningful than champ counters. People have to learn fewer champs to see success. The list of skills a player needs to know to clean my solo Q is shorter. Feast or famine strats like full poke and 4 protect 1 strats are near impossible to make work. Hard split pushing strats are really only viable in the context of 1-3-1, as 4-1-0 is only possible to pull off in the most extreme cases like when Brokenblade ate Impact alive in the Jax v Yorick meme game.

I understand that LOL already has a pretty high enter point in terms of learning curve, and probably the highest ceiling in esports outside of Dota2. And if that learning curve becomes frustrating to new and casual players, it's bad for business. Especially when you consider how battle Royale and 15 min model games are bodying the gaming industry right now. But the integrity and robustness of LOL and video games in general are suffering.

I used to have the conversation all the time about how gaming was not a wast of time, but was actually super beneficial when compared to watching TV and some other hobbies. Strategy and critical thinking I'd say, teamwork and communication I'd say, multi tasking, theory crafting. Now it's getting harder and harder to point those things out and I'm like, well it still helps my reflexes.

Esports and the gaming industry in general need a big company and a big game like Riot/LOL to make a stand and say, hey we're not going to sacrifice the quality of our game to feed the machine, we are not going to bow down to the Reddit rage posts of teenagers, to focus not on short payoffs, but long term. Cuz guess what? Those casual players are going to move on to another game anyways, and catering to them is only going to alienate your veteran students of the game . So in a couple years...BOTH camps will be leaving your game instead of just 1.

Food for thought yo

Power CosmicApr 21, 20198 votes

Thxs for the great reply. I read every word of it, and agree wholeheartedly. One thing you mentioned is the learning curve and how it is a big deal, as Riot views it as a barrier to entry; bc it is. But without it, also means a narrower game where there are less ways to have fun while being a positive part of your team's winning effort. Which leads to less people playing.

Whisper87Apr 22, 20192 votes

Yup, when a game takes real effort & intellect to be good at it...your ranking and wins mean that much more. Things that are easy to come by don't mean anything. A diamond wouldn't be worth jack if they just grew in your back yard.

And yeah, I think creating a more one dimensional game is far more risky from a longevity business perspective than creating a highly dynamic game with a steep learning curve. The more there is to learn, the more incentive you have to keep playing. Think of how WOW was back in it's "Golden Years". Players would spend a ton of time getting to max level, then hit end game and realize they had just scratched the surface and had so much to learn. The majority of players increase their daily/weekly time played at this point.

Power CosmicApr 23, 20191 votes

It seems now that for new and casual players, they either kick butt in lane or quit. For me, at least atm, I have gotten to the point where the grind isn't worth it, for several reasons.

Whisper87Apr 23, 20191 votes

Yeah, the "Win or lose the game in 20 mins" model is just boring to me. Many solo Q players cash out mentally at like 25 min mark even if they are winning.

To me variety is what makes the game interesting. Some games should be 20 min lane focused stomps, if that what your strat is built around. But some games should also come down to hard split pushing and trading objectives over a 35 min slugfest. Some games should be comebacks where a scaling team fight comps plays patiently and loses slowly until they take the perfect fight after all the tools are in place. Some games should be very low kill with siege comps running the enemy team around the map and poking them off of towers and drakes repeatedly. Some games should be won by aggressive skirmishing junglers, while others should be won by control style jungling.

There will always be a META, and there always should be. But we've gotten to the point where the most efficient tactics are SOOOOO efficient that pretty much every other style has only a tiny sliver of viability. A lot of things have to line up in order for a full poke comp to be as effective as a standard meta comp in the current state of things. We need to welcome variety. Welcome the value of having a deep champ pool. Welcome the need to learn how to play and how to counter 4-5 strats rather than 1-2. It's part of the robust world of online pvp games that we are diluting and reducing the integrity of.

Power CosmicApr 24, 20191 votes

All the reworks would be far less of a big deal, if there was a healthier meta that included not all champs, but all types of champs. The main thing that has kept me playing, other than I liking the game, is there is no other real option in this space.

Whisper87Apr 24, 20192 votes

Totally agree. It's impossible to balance the game perfectly for all champs. But as you said, all "types" of champs and strats should have a reasonable window for success.

If you look at DOTA2, even when the meta in general favors more aggressive early-mid game fighting, there are still certain champs, combos of champs, and item builds that can make greedier scaling comps and split push comps see a reasonable rate of success within that setting.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Valve does a metric TON of hotfixes and minor adjustments to champs and items. While their changes to the map, champ reworks, and pacing elements of the game are generally few and far between. It's nearly the polar opposite of RIot's dev philosophy.

I'm not saying DOTA is better, I still prefer LOL. I'm just saying RIOT has put themselves in a situation where the meta goes in circles like a dog chasing it's tail. Any time one style becomes strong it becomes the hands down far and away strongest style, so when you have to buff or nerf so heavily to compensate, all you're doing is making the new OP strat. If RIOT was ok with smaller incremental changes over time, they would have a far more stable game, and absolutely more balance in terms of overall styles/strats.

The most recent example would be how strong the scaling enchanter-crit adc- tank meta was last season. And rather than making some adjustments over time...Riot completely gutted crit ADCs, nerfed ardent, buffed fighter runes, and nerfed tank runes. I mean the level of overcompensation is nuts. It's like someone asking you to hang a picture for them, and you bring a sledge hammer to drive the nail into drywall.

And now it's become a part of the LOL culture and what casual players expect. Assassin players be like, "Hey, tanks and mages got to be OP for all of second split last season. Now it's OUR turn to be OP for an entire split." A bunch of different player types just crying and trying to make enough noise so that their style of play/champ will be the next one to have their moment to shine. Always knowing it will be a temporary reprieve before the next flavor of the split strat comes along. Compare this again to DOTA where certain strats such as Drow-Dragonknight siege have been viable for literally 4-5 seasons if not longer. Sometimes it is a little too strong, sometimes it is pushed out of the upper tiers by shiny new strats, but it is always strong enough to be considered reasonably reliable and not overly risky.

Moody PApr 20, 20194 votes

you guys whine to hell and back whenever a macro focused champion is good and you BEG them to add more mechanics every time a simple champion is up for reworks. Don't act like this isn't what you want

Power CosmicApr 20, 20194 votes

Micro is a shortcut to being temporarily okay if you are playing meta. And Riot likes that more than players getting good (macro) and therefore being more fun to play with. Some Macro champs are quite hard and complex like: AurelionSol Anivia Viktor Singed .

HeeroTXApr 20, 201910 votes

Many players complain about macro because they don't want to bother to learn to improve their macro. Example: Vision has been steadily nerf'd because most people never bothered to learn it/be good at it so way back when, players who were good at vision had a tremendous advantage especially at lower elos.

Whisper87Apr 21, 20195 votes

Amen, preach homie. The volume of time I've heard someone be like, "sigh win lane lose game every time", or like "If I have to read or listen to pro commentary to be really good at a game, I'm not interested" is honestly sickening.

Like aren't the things we choose to do for fun, the things we don't have to o do to make a living, but get to pick how we spend our time...aren't they the things we should be most willing to invest time and effort into?

Like I work hard and strive to have impact at work because I care about my coworkers and think what the company is doing is awesome. But I play competitive games and read guides and watch pro play because I think it's a crazy, amazing, in depth, complex, dynamic world. And I think all video game players, casual or otherwise should be able to appreciate and want to preserve that.

DisembarkApr 21, 20192 votes

So what you're saying is that instead of catering to the majority of their playerbase that is too casual to learn macro, they should market to... you and the 50 people that actually use boards?

HeeroTXApr 21, 20193 votes

So... you're saying they TUNE champions to the tiny percentage that use them to their maximum efficiency (stated reasoning) but they SHOULDN'T tailor the REST of the game to the same standard? I think they should have CONSISTENCY either way. Either make it a GREAT game for the people that play it best, or make it most enjoyable for the masses, but not half one, half the other.

Whisper87Apr 22, 20191 votes

Exactly. What makes a champion like Zed cool is that sure, anyone can play him. But...those who put in a lot of reps and time and research will be able to make him look like a completely different champ. While on the other hand Ashe is much less mechanically intense, yet can be viable at high levels of play despite having a much lower ceiling. The OPTION is there, both OPTIONS are there.

Riot has consistently been narrowing the playing field in terms of style and strategy, forcing everyone to play the same type of game. While I do think LOL is better than DOTA as a whole, the variety of strategies and amount of creativity allowed in creating win conditions is much broader in terms of viability.

Also, how can we know how all of the new LOL players who have joined the game over the last three years would react to a game that is balanced between macro and micro/mechanics? They haven't experienced it. You can't really use the popularity of mobile and battle royale games as evidence because it's a completely different genre. There are plenty of games that have come out in recent years that prove that if your product is quality enough, you don't have to adhere to the "15 minute model" style of gaming in order to reach popularity.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MApr 21, 20192 votes

Nah man vision was nerfed b/c of pro-play, it made it too easy to play safe and stall out games to 35+ minutes

HeeroTXApr 21, 20193 votes

Here's an article that shows how warding DIRECTLY correlated to elo: https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/escape-darkness-low-elo-warding-and-you

The information is from when you could (had to) BUY wards.
Then they gave you wards for free on trinket, base trinket gave you 1 ward (because people weren't buying), needed to active upgrade it to get more Then they made the trinket auto-upgrade to the more wards option (because people weren't upgrading) Then the pros (people who are good) had too much vision, so they nerf'd the number of free wards you get

SOMEWHERE in there (admit I forget the timing) they also replaced pinks with the control ward (which sucks in comparison, and I say that as someone who admittedly rarely bought pinks).

SaiannaApr 20, 20192 votes

and Eve's new W & R vs her old ones. [...] Eve is now a sinlge target nuke only champ

Which means she returned from her banishment which was her second rework, that forced her into garbage state of a no damage jungle tank.

She's back to being herself if anything.

D357R0Y3RApr 20, 20191 votes

you dared to tell the truth

more seriously, people prefer old tank eve which is incredibly incoherent because if they wanted that champion they should have just gone to play lee sin or an other bruiser, not a champion called "widowmaker"

Power CosmicApr 21, 20192 votes

I am glad you replied. Old Eve's optimal role was definitely to nuke. But every game was different and if her optimal role wasnt viable that game, you built what was needed to help your team win. And that was part of being a good player, being smart enough to know the items, plays, and timings to look for outside her optimal single target nuke.

SaiannaApr 21, 20194 votes

Oh she was less than you say she was. When sunfirecape stacking was meta, that's all she was. When simply AP nuke was ok, that's all she was. Back then "building against" someone was yet unexplored, cause everyone played like a potato and 1 random build could have taken whole (small) LOL community by the balls, like item stacking.

Back then tanks were tanks, while everyone else was just squishy. You never met any "heavy team", because beyond tanks noone had decent tank stats. That also means her whole gameplay revolved about being smart with nuking (or sunfirecape invis harrassing). Strategizing wasn't in building her up, but picking the target.

Back then Riots philosophy on assassins was high risk, high revard, 100% commitment with no escapes. It was easy, pure and I'd even say fair time of LOL. So I still kind of, partially, disagree with you :P

Assassins focusing on single targets are fine. If anything I'd say this whole Idea of Assassins being some kind of action movie heroes that fart explosions, kill everyone, then teleport everywhere is the broken and bad design. Yeah sure it makes them fun to play, but in the end it makes them into well.. hyper-mobile, no-risk, high reward... mages. That's how assassins are played nowadays

Power CosmicApr 22, 20191 votes

Yeah assassins should be high risk, high reward single target nukers mostly. But I did appreciate the build diversity I used to enjoy on Eve. I am all for a general risk v reward philosophy for how this game is constructed as is obvious by me starting this thread :)

Power CosmicApr 21, 20192 votes

Riot did not get rich just trying to make money. Riot found enormous success making LoL awesome. Once money becomes the focus over the game, which it has, the game suffers. Making a great game (in this case MOBA) should be the goal, the appropriate money will come then as a business go from there.

DNFVixenApr 22, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YZvnNVzV,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-04-20T17:39:53.620+0000)

The game has gone away from Macro into a Micro-focused one. It was always the wrong move and there is no turning back now. I think a good examples are Zac's old ult vs his new one and Eve's new W & R vs her old ones. The former's is now more precise and largely less effective and Eve is now a sinlge target nuke only champ (even though the ult has aoe). Before Eve's W was just a cleanse/steroid while her ult was big, unique, and very situational in how you used it. Also in general the game encourages a lot of spamming and far less sharp decision making. The game is too big to die, but any type of recovery is in the past. I love the game and the game itself is almost forcing me not to play with how annoying everything is.

I can make a long reply if people are interested listing Macro vs Micro focused champs.

this is so true, the only reason i still play this game is my wife plays but i HATE what the game has become.

KinglingexeApr 20, 20191 votes

Omg keep going this is exactly what I have in mind They removed all the mechanix out of this game that it turned out to be really bad and sucky... Like it doesn't matter how good u are it's all about the picks because everything is brain dead the only champ I consider is kinda balanced is Lee sin it's the only champ that makes me play the game because anything else is just brain dead not fun to play with or against.. hopefully riot take some action about these issues

" The game is too big to die " that's one of hell a line

Power CosmicApr 20, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Omg keep going this is exactly what I have in mind They removed all the mechanix out of this game that it turned out to be really bad and sucky... Like it doesn't matter how good u are it's all about the picks because everything is brain dead the only champ I consider is kinda balanced is Lee sin it's the only champ that makes me play the game because anything else is just brain dead not fun to play with or against.. hopefully riot take some action about these issues

" The game is too big to die " that's one of hell a line

A lot of people think micro and mechanics are synonymous. Synergies, big plays, and finding abstract win conditions based on combinations of abilities is anything but brain dead, and is actually why LoL got to where it is bc it was fun. DoTA is not fun. LoL made a MOBA the funnest game online game out, and well worth playing despite the learning curve. But now they have veered away from being a MOBA. Solo lane champs being self-sufficient and self-reliant on getting themselves carrying is not good design bc it amounts to a random action game.

Shazzbot69Apr 20, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YZvnNVzV,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-20T20:33:17.715+0000)

A lot of people think micro and mechanics are synonymous. Synergies, big plays, and finding abstract win conditions based on combinations of abilities is anything but brain dead, and is actually why LoL got to where it is bc it was fun. DoTA is not fun. LoL made a MOBA the funnest game online game out, and well worth playing despite the learning curve. But now they have veered away from being a MOBA. Solo lane champs being self-sufficient and self-reliant on getting themselves carrying is not good design bc it amounts to a random action game.

Oh look another idiot fanboy that feels the need to shit talk Dota for no real reason.

Whisper87Apr 21, 20192 votes

Both games have their pros and cons, and in my opinion are equally good, just LOL is more suited to the tastes of today's average PC gamer. LOL does a better job with pacing and is more approachable for a new player. DOTA is far better at making sure there are a ton of strategic options and are more creative with items. The learning curve is just ungodly and can be frustrating if you are not a patient player.

Shazzbot69Apr 21, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Both games have their pros and cons, and in my opinion are equally good, just LOL is more suited to the tastes of today's average PC gamer. LOL does a better job with pacing and is more approachable for a new player. DOTA is far better at making sure there are a ton of strategic options and are more creative with items. The learning curve is just ungodly and can be frustrating if you are not a patient player.

I totally agree with you that both games have their pros and cons and I even play both games myself. I just took issue with Cosmic Power because they felt the need to attack dota without any real reason, and Stated their opinion as an absolute position. No one even brought up dota but they still felt the need to say dota is not fun.

Power CosmicApr 22, 20192 votes

I mentioned DoTA bc the game consistently has a great meta.

Power CosmicApr 21, 20192 votes

I love watching competitive DOTA2, but playing it is nothing but frustration and I am pretty gd patient.

Whisper87Apr 22, 20191 votes

Yeah, there is a TON to learn to know all the ins and outs and interactions in that game. And it's super punishing if you don't know everything.

OnlyMostlyTrashApr 21, 20191 votes

While I can't deny you're opinion on the directionality of the game is leaning heavy to shorter, more action filled games, this shouldn't be confused with what any of the people currently at riot, or it's creators WANT. When you're a small indie gaming company, or when a large but privately owned one you can do what you want.

Riot is not this. Riot is owned by a giant multinational conglomerate, Tencet. As mentioned in another post short duration games are killing it. More importantly they're actively bringing new players.

What im about to say sucks, but it's a major factor.

The ability to bring in new players is, from a profitability stand point, more important than keeping the people who are currently playing.

Why? No matter how much you may love a game, even if you never pick up another, life happens and regardless of how happy current players are you will lose some of them. If you're not bringing in new players your game is dying, period.

This is why riot is pushing the game towards more action oriented shorter games. Reportedly last year was the first year riot made less money than they did the year before. Did they still make a shit ton? Yes. But I've heard a VP of a company say, and I quote, you're either increasing your business or you're running a really long going out of business sale. That's the mentality of corporations.

I've tried to pull friends into this game, because I really like it, and they ask about the game length, and I tell them it's gotten shorter, gashes are ending in 25-30 minutes most the time. The look of revulsion I received at the idea of investing that long in a single round spoke volumes.

Riot doesn't hate macro, the general public does.

Power CosmicApr 21, 20191 votes

It is a hard game and not for everyone (like the people on my team tonight smh). Make it a solid MOBA and move on to other projects to diversify and create other revenue streams.

Hawthorn TreeApr 22, 20191 votes

lol remember the days when ADCs had to actively avoid assassins on the map? Remember when macro was more than "stand next to your support" and "don't show bot when we're about to fight baron" for them? Yeah, I remember those days. Assassins were actually viable in pro plays back then.

Honestly, though, you say Riot is echanging macro for micro, but I really don't see any examples of ADCs and mages needing micro. Each ADC gets to build a trillion movespeed to kiting is basically done automatically now, and mages get to have stasis for 600g. Surviving as these classes honestly only boils down to not being literally r e t a r d e d.

Power CosmicApr 22, 20191 votes

You are talking mechanics and yes some mages and marksmen have less mechanics (but some adc's and mages have very high mechanical skill ceilings). However, micro means a champ can do more him or herself. Or, in otherwords, your team does not matter as much. That is why a champ like Zed is good atm, bc he can relatively safely have a lot of influence early without needing any real help. But stopping Zed takes a macro effort of zoning him out and not giving him any desirable single targets. That has always been how assassins have been countering, but now they lane well making them safe picks too. So therefore a very high likely return, for low risk, which makes no sense. It is like a savings account giving you more return on average than stocks or bonds. The game is stupid atm, and is playing like it.