Lets talk about Grievous Wounds

eztarg3t··4 votes·1,078 views

I feel like we should talk about Grievous wounds because right now it is a hard counter to Soraka and any other sustain supports. It was first created so that healing was mitigated. But now healing seems to have taken a different route in the form of healing more at low HP to discourage topping off health. With this new matter of healing, Grievous wounds no longer counters but punishes healing at lower points.

If the Soraka rework is a success it won't matter much when the enemy says, "lol K, I'll just pick Miss Fortune or Varus. Thanks for the free win!" because they counter her healing hard. Even a champion with no ability that applies Grievous wound can pick up ignite and hard counter Soraka with just that. If Riot wants sustain supports to be part of their game, they need to have another look at Grievous Wounds.

If you want to drop your two cents, go ahead. If you want to alleviate my fears that Soraka won't stand a chance even with a new kit. Please do so!

16 Comments

Pika3103 votes

If the Soraka rework is a success

It's almost certain it will not be. Look at what happened to Sona: less damage, weaker laning, reduced team presence, loss of siege potential. Six weeks since it came to PBE, 2 weeks since it went live and not a single real action has been made in answer to any of these.

On to the matter at-hand. If GW was to be removed, what change would be made to Ignite to compensate? Would it do more damage, or have some other type of effect? Perhaps they would even feel it should stay as-is, minus GW, but that would mean a lot more kills lost to a health potion used as they get away.

eztarg3t3 votes

Thanks for your negativity on the Soraka rework, I shall throw it in the trash bin where it belongs.

But you do bring up a point about ignite. Getting rid of of GW without any compensation would make it pretty useless. I would assume they may increase the damage and counter. But I have no idea. Like I said before, as long as GW is in the game unchanged it will keep sustain supports out of league.

Emmy Cha0s1 votes

You can call it negative, but it just looks like realism to me. The trash bin seems appropriate, since that's exactly where all player feedback has been tossed.

Perhaps Ignite could gain a small %-based damage. Just 1 or 2% may be enough, though I'm not sure if it would scale current or max HP.

eztarg3t3 votes

Yeah, but could you guys wait until the rework is revealed? Then you are free to say how you will never play this champion again and how you are going to Dota 2 and yada yada yada.

Back to ignite, I really can't say whether your suggestion is a good one or not because I am piss poor when it comes to the technical parts.

Emmy Cha0s1 votes

I'm just saying, they have a bad track-record when it comes to reworks. Sona's is no different, even though they promised it would be done more carefully. Promised she would have a longer stint on PBE and claimed they were going to listen to player feedback. None of these things happened. I'm not an avid Soraka player, so I probably won't weigh in on it when that happens, so I'll pass the torch on to you and everyone else that still plays her over the Morganas everywhere. Hopefully they won't feel the same pain that Sona players feel right now.

eztarg3t1 votes

I understand the outrage with the Sona rework. She was (in a sense) still viable before it. Whether it was a success or not is left to the player. I kinda like the rework but I'm not a dedicated Sona fan. So my opinion is probably moot. But Soraka, as it stand, is not viable by any means (thanks Riot for the endless nerfing.). Soraka fans have been informed that her kit is going to have a lot of changes and her playstyle will be radically different than what it was before.

I understand this and know full well that the Soraka we are getting now will not be the Soraka we had before. Shit, i have been keeping up to date on all the hints Vesh has left to figure out what kind of kit Soraka may have. I've even made a speculation sheet just to help others out. [I feel kinda dirty now for promoting my own thread.] But this defeatist mentality does not help anyone in the slightest.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

You're aware is been stated that Grievous Wound will eventually be phased out completely, right?

eztarg3t2 votes

...! Where? Edit: Found something about it: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/04/red-post-collection-lets-talk-grievous.html Would like a Rioter to explain further though when they are looking to phase out GW.

Teridax682 votes

EDIT: Whoops, realized the question was "when" and not "why". My bad. :|

I'm not a Rioter, so don't take this as a given truth. :P

The way I see it, Grievous Wounds is a bad thing to have in the game because: A) It hard counters healing/regen based champions: If you're a champion like DrMundo , Soraka or Vladimir, whose playstyles heavily revolve around being able to heal or regenerate health, Grievous Wounds just denies you from doing what you're meant to do, and takes a huge chunk of power away from you in a manner you can't outplay. No champion should have their core strength completely countered by one single effect (which is one of the reasons why stealth champions suffered horribly when item 2043 and Oracle's Elixir dominated the vision game, as true sight is a hard counter to stealth). B) It's the reason why some sustain is nearly impossible to deal with: Because there exists a hard counter to heavily sustain-based champions, these champions need to still be able to function somewhat even while under the effect of Grievous Wounds, which translates to a boost to their healing so that it can still be okay even when mitigated. Problem is, as a result, champions like DrMundo and Swain have healing so powerful that, unless you happen to have Grievous Wounds, you're not going to be able to deal with it well, if at all. Effectively, this creates a binary scenario in which either you have Grievous Wounds and you win by removing half your opponent's sustain, or you don't and they heal through everything you throw at them. C) It has no real gameplay: Another issue with Grievous Wounds is that it's typically added as a side-effect to another mechanic, rather than being the focus of the thing itself. If MissFortune activates Impure Shots, it's to outtrade you through attack speed, not through healing reduction, for example. Effectively, Grievous Wounds just piles more power onto spells without making them more interesting or providing real additional options. On top of not providing additional gameplay to the person applying healing reduction, it also has no real interaction with the victim: the only way you can react to Grievous Wounds is by not healing while under its effects, but the healing reduction is always pervasive enough in a fight that you will need to heal or sustain at some point, if you haven't activated your heal/regen ability already. It presents a false choice, since it discourages you from healing but lasts for long enough that you will eventually be forced to heal while affected by Grievous Wounds. There's no real way to make the effect last for a short duration, since Grievous Wounds is already situational and not very appreciable as is (not to the one applying it, anyway).

TL;DR: A League of Legends without Grievous Wounds means no hard-countering sustain-based champions, no sustain so strong as to be impossible to handle, and all this at no loss in gameplay.

eztarg3t2 votes

My focus was more around sustain champions, I completly forgot about Mundo and Swain. Sounds like to me Riot is stuck between a rock and a hard place. As long as GW stands, sustain supports + Mundo and Swain are consided a poor pick because of the heavy counter. If they get rid of it then it would help the sustain supports because of the new way of healing but would open a new can of worms because of Mundo, Swain, and Vlad would run unchecked.

Thanks for posting this, you put a lot of effort showing the flaws of GW but its unfortunate importance. It at least shows the problem Riot has right now. But as long as GW stands as it is, sustain supports will always be an unviable pick. Crossing fingers a Rioter can at least respond.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

TL;DR: A League of Legends without Grievous Wounds means no hard-countering sustain-based champions, no sustain so strong as to be impossible to handle, and all this at no loss in gameplay.

i saw the ritos post about grewious wounds, they stated that it will require numbber ballancing, removing it without any change indeed woulds make sustain op cause mundo would be able to have 8k of actual hp per fight

Teridax681 votes

That's true, but it's also a chicken-and-egg problem in which champions like DrMundo have OP sustain precisely because of Grievous Wounds, which is then deemed necessary to counter their healing/regen: if their sustain wasn't OP, Grievous Wounds would make their sustain practically insignificant in a fight. It would be a lot better to nerf or otherwise redo heavy sustain to make it more manageable and remove Grievous Wounds, than remain in the current situation where some champions are impossible to deal with properly without a hard counter.

I agree that drain tanking is a problem, which is why champions like Aatrox aren't allowed to be as powerful as they could be. However, I also think Grievous Wounds, at best, just papers over the issue without actually addressing it, and at worst makes the issue less visible and prevents it from being dealt with correctly. Imo, the core problem with drain tanking is that, currently, the resilience of most drain tanks scales with their damage, as does most sustain (i.e. lifesteal and spellvamp), which not only leads to snowballing issues (more damage translates into more "tankiness") but also creates overwhelmingly strong sustain when improperly gated. Drain tanks whose sustain scales with their tankiness would also be tough to balance, since usually tanks die to either burst or DPS and high health + high sustain counters both. The crux of the issue is how to gate both forms of tankiness in order to give drain tanks clear weaknesses and stop their sustain from going overboard.

steelblacksky1 votes

read all of that too, and while zenonthestoic indicates a desire to do away with it, he also indicates dissension on the point from feralpony, and xelnath kind of only talked on drain tanks and heal gating.

theres a reason every team needs at least one ignite if not more than one.

for another thing the combo of DOT and grievous wounds hard counters heal by cutting heal amount in half then ticking for around double the healed amount(presuming equivalent levels).

it's very useful if you are not a mage or support who builds morellonomicon to boot(which applies it with magic damage to targets below a health threshhold only, much like executioners something below 50%hp) as a way to endure. however ignite is not enough in and of itself. take the discussed mundo case in that red discussion. his ult costs 20% of his health, to regen more, and can occur once per minute or more.

ignite would have a 210 second cooldown. that means used to counter something like mundo, even if it works, and you kill him that time, he will likely be up again and able to ult two more times before ignite is off cd again.

and swains just mana gated which can be worse.

with respect to adcs everyone knows how they counter thornmail right? more lifesteal!

how do you counter lifesteal??

and in the cases of glass cannon cored lawnmowers that crawled out of top, what happens when you put a botrk, ravenous hydra, AND bloodthirster together? 42% lifesteal in aoe with %hp damage and an overheal shield. then we ramp it up with spirit visage maybe? what if they went deep into defensive tree for that boost when below 25% health? or perhaps they took a guinsoos got it procced to get its passive buff then, as say fiora, pressed r. when you start looking at almost total damage conversion to health and or overshield... possibly on top of some inherent regen or healing ability, and typically being buffed in the inherent hp/5 due to being melee.

i know at this point things aren't going to get better until we can break free of the esports tourneys looming effect on changes, but a large pass really needs to be done that puts the sustain nerf pass from prior seasons and their marksman changes pass to shame and dust.

hell, everyones still focused deeply on abilities that heal or debuff same, or the active components like lifesteal.

a simple health potion restores 150 hp over 15 seconds or 10hps. a warmogs grants 1000hp and restores 1% of hp per 5(!) seconds, for an item based 2 hps, making a basic health potion 5 times more powerful than what warmogs provides in and of itself. to make warmogs passive as effective on the regen side you would need 4000 health in addition to the health on warmogs itself just to equal that 35g health potions 15 seconds of shining. i specifically raised the point over the strength of health potions when the discussion was ongoing to change irelias hiten passive to what it is now, and cut ww down , and more in toplane, YEARS AGO. they eclipse everything early game.

which brings us to the new style they keep adding. %health damage. slightly more than 1/3rd of the champions in league possess it in some form inherently. those that don't have access to liandries and botrk.

so its becoming a decision point. do they continue and expand the %health damage and do away with grievous, or do they actually put sustain sources in check and remove it, or do they continue the horked up little bit of everything?

eztarg3t1 votes

Goodness, it seems I just decided to jump into the deep end of this pool. I'm learning more and more the problems of GW. Seems like this is more of a weed that has grown very deep roots and simply pulling it out isn't an option (or not a wise one, at least.). Thank you for your contribution to this conversation.

Emmy Cha0s1 votes

those that don't have access to liandries and botrk.

...and Deathfire Grasp.

Lord Graves III1 votes

I agree Grievous wounds is a clunky mechanic that needs to go.

It does more than hard counter Soraka. It also keeps Swain, Mundo, and arguably Olaf down.

But its being phased out. Legend has it they plan to kill the whole mechanic and just replace it everywhere it needs to be important. Like on MF or Kat perhaps.

More from Gameplay

More by eztarg3t