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Thoughts on Rengar Revert

the boss baby··622 votes·28,791 views

Alright so I made an earlier post about Rengar, it was super ranty, badly structured and I feel like i repeated myself a bit but it got my point across. Link: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/YAa8YWa2-revert-rengar-please

I want to make a correction to it: The biggest problem with new Rengar is the free crit on his ult and his Q. His Q is clunky, nerfed to the ground, AoE for some stupid reason and just plain not fun to use. His current kit completely killed crit Rengar which was super fun to play. AD Bruiser is not so fun.

Here is a concept: Lower the AD his passive gives to 12-15% on 5 kills Revert the stacks to as before, it's genuinely no fun in its current state. Revert his Q to exactly as before, [EDIT] But give it a 5-10% AD Ratio bonus to compensate for massive W power reduction Have W heal lowered and only cleanse slows. Keep E as is. Remove Free Crit on ult. [EDIT] Return the stacks it gave, but not 5 Stacks, more like 3-5 on ult levels 1-3

Because his passive gives free AD, building straight AD seems better, but with lower bonus AD, and no free crit means crit build comes back. The new stack system is 0 fun to use, lets be honest. Old stacks was similar but the feeling of preparing before a hunt was so cool to me.

Current Q is ass, lets face it, Old Q is superior in every way, and a core part of the kit.

W is way too strong, a free massive heal and a cleanse? Hello? Rito? Besides, with the passive revert, AP Rengar players have a home again.

E is fine, live love rengar E

R: Remove crit, thats all. Without the crit, crit rengar comes back, which means a much stronger late game but none of the old mid game bullshit jump an enemy for 2k crit before they even see you. On top of the crit removal, with the new camoflauge mechanic, your positioning before a fight has to be a lot better so old glass cannon, wait until all summs are blown before jumping in will be remedied. The original return of 5 stacks right after ulting was pretty busted, 3/4 would be a lot more fair to play against

[EDIT] Moving a lot of the power in his kit would mean his balance would be in question, so i chose to make the kit overall weaker to preserve the feeling of old Rengar, with plenty of room for Riot to buff/nerf as needed. (Ex: W heal values, E slow)

I hope this appeals, because this would make my favorite champion playable again. Please Riot I love this game but my favorite champion is gone and League just isnt the same without Angry Knife Kitty :(

[EDIT] Sorry for all the edits :p just adding some points or changing something i feel didn't make as much sense, like the W ap bonus.

334 Comments

ProGGOPlayer180 votes

It's just sad how long Riot Games keep dragging this out. It's so obvious they fucked up with the Rengar rework. Just revert him already.

the boss baby57 votes

Riot did exactly what they said they wouldn't, and there are plenty of champs that are a bigger problem than old rengar was. I say give the problem champions and give the Rengar playerbase their kitty back

Haylia12 votes

so true lol

Fenikkusu110 votes

Riot seems to be the Super Sayian of game companies. Can do really cool shit, but they have to much pride.

PollyHepburn55 votes

I dont play Rengar, but I would prefer the old Rengar than this one.

MystéryGamer53 votes

I do wish there were a way to actually start a petition and show it to Riot, telling them "Look, this is how many people think the rework is garbage, can we just chalk it up as a failed experiment and get on with it already?"

Hitman Reñgar33 votes

Jokes on you I already did that ages ago: http://www.strawpoll.me/11813089/r

Who would have guessed the results.

Synnx714 votes

Their LC$ ppl think otherwise, so screw the 99.99999% of the ppl that play their garbage

DoubleAwesomeLoL45 votes

Stop hiding Riot. I want answers [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

4EtQTKtcfT42 votes

As an ADC main, I prefer to play vs the old Rengar, He didn't tank all damage and oneshot everyone.

ItsLinkyy28 votes

{quoted}

As an ADC main, I prefer to play vs the old Rengar, He didn't tank all damage and oneshot everyone.

same. Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way

ARCH E dot EXE37 votes

Q: Nice meme [slayer-jinx-wink]

jusTUCTR32 votes

I'm an ADC main. I bought a cloth armor against old Rengar. He got counterplayed. Wow, I'm so good.

BernardoBeluchi24 votes

{quoted}

I'm an ADC main. I bought a cloth armor against old Rengar. He got counterplayed. Wow, I'm so good.

Or no, I'll just build full glass cannon and expect not to be able get one shotted just to complain about how OP an assassin is.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

99 Reborn31 votes

Never thought I would say this but, I would like him reverted. I play mainly squishies, but the fact that the old Rengar was able to be blown up after killing me was OK. This psuedo tanking is NOT.

the boss baby9 votes

The biggest thing about Rengar was one shotting a squishy, which plenty of mages do just as well, but mages stayed safe when doing it. Rengar had his risks, and I would die countless times after serving my purpose. The healing from w could pretty much be removed too, or at least only on the empowered w.

Yeekaw23 votes

So fucking true. How to counter Syndra oneshotting you with ult? You build Magic Resist. Same concept applies for ANY assassin, you build ARMOR.

Payoak30 votes

revert or at least rework him again. this one sucks big time.

Baba JW Yaga27 votes

At least he can swim with his Q now. Hahaha. Pathetic rework.

kikalekika24 votes

Old rengar was NOT problematic. Anyone saying otherwise are deluded midlaners/marksmen mains playing in lower elo. I remember a lot of high elo players used to build tank/bruiser as it was harder to play assassin because you would not be able to scratch anything except for squishy opponents. In terms of strength, he was below average. As assassin Rengar: sure, you had the potential to get rid of any carry in a fight, but the risk of getting oneshotted yourself was extremely high.

Now it's like who's going to kill carries, when you are trying to make assassins shit, when that is their primary job? A Malphite standing still with Ninja Tabi + Thornmail? Well yeah, there is counterplay to that, you build lifesteal. Well, guess what? There is counterplay to Rengar too. You build armor. Where is the counterplay against ADC that kites you endlessly, when you are playing a bruiser with no form of gapclosers? Like, what kind of assassin are you if you are going to take 3 years to kill someone? It's really pathetic how some of you treat old Rengar as a dirtbag.

Now, we have PD, DD, GA, Ninja Tabi, Banshee's Veil, Zhonyas, Sterak's Gage. Like you have ALL the tools to not get "oneshotted", and yes they are built frequently. Instead, all you do is try to push old Rengar or any assassin further back.

This is coming from someone who does NOT play Rengar & can see the reality of this whole controversial bullshit.

If you do decide to revert Rengar, for me, I wouldn't even care as I wouldn't have any problems playing against or with him. But, if that is what the majority wants, then Riot should just revert him and move on already.

semmyspike18 votes

rip kitty :(

ankaa98118 votes

where is the transparency rito?

Hitman Reñgar18 votes

Yea, I quit playing Rengar, just feels so dull and bad now.

SmurfingMontana18 votes

stay strong rengar mains :(

shadowsnake10115 votes

I heard LeBlanc was going to get some small scale rework? If that goes through and Rengar gets nothing, then I am seriously done with you Riot.

SexyBabyJesusZ14 votes

no one really liked to play against old rengar, but his old kit would be much easier to balance than his current one

Shablagoo12 votes

So so funny because Rengar wouldn't be able to kill adc's in oneshot with this meta. I dont get why they reworked him when they could've just toned him down like kha.

Syve11 votes

Just revert this abomination already. Even though he is stronger than pre rework rengar, being able to kill their adc and still survive, i dislike the clunkiness of his kit. Also, they lowered rengar's skill floor so much that you can't diferentiate the good players from the bad ones anymore. Before rework you had to be ahead, manage your ferocity and time your combo perfectly to kill an adc (q leap e w hydra mid air), now all you need to do is build bruiser and right click. If you don't believe me, look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLehtecT7kc Look at that fake laugh and sudden realisation that they fucked up this champion so hard. I'm waiting for some changes, you can't ignore us forever.

IGNolifeDenZz10 votes

i mean is it still a question that this new rengar is horrible to play with?

Thefrostyviking10 votes

Old rengar was super oppressive to play against though :(

I can't even recall the amount of time i played as a squishy or a early skirmisher only to suddenly see the icon 1 second before rengar jumps out and i die 1.5 second after he lands.

oh and the ability to carry around a 2 seconds snare too. That was 0 fun to deal with.

May he remain gone forever more for all i care, current rengar does at least not oneshot.

SomiKiller0324 votes

{quoted}

Old rengar was super oppressive to play against though :(

I can't even recall the amount of time i played as a squishy or a early skirmisher only to suddenly see the icon 1 second before rengar jumps out and i die 1.5 second after he lands.

May he remain gone forever more for all i care, current rengar does at least not oneshot.

"current rengar does at least not oneshot"

Are we playing the same game?

This Rengar can one shot without being ahead as long as he builds full lethality.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Lethality was nerfed quite hard, just a little armor and you won't be oneshot.

RavePrufix YT15 votes

And how does that not apply for old Rengar? A cloth armor, and you won't be oneshot.

Dreadlocks2 votes

You don't need lethality on new rengar, you have a stupid ad steroid in the passive that actually rewards you for just building flat AD.. Plus if you get the crit on a squishy target, you don't even usually need your Q to 1-shot them.. Not to mention you can build half tank and still do stupid amounts of damage.. Old Rengar had to commit to either FULL TANK or FULL DAMAGE, anything in between and you were too squishy to distract the ADC, or not enough damage to have kill threat.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

The crit was countered by teamplay though? As a squishy i merely needed to position as usual and rengar was rarely a problem.

And old rengar also had brusier builds, those will probably never go away on assassins.

But it's true that in the later stages of the game a half cut build won't threaten a ADC.

But it's fairly rare for a game to go on for so long below Diamond and above bronze these days x)

Dreadlocks1 votes

Games usually go late in solo q lol and with rengars ult being camo, it wouldn't be as easy to get to the adc as before, but still easier to blow them up than it is now.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

His ulti is already a camo tho? It's invisibility with the handicap that if someone stands near you they can also see you.

Invisibility doesn't have that handicap.

So you don't want him changed except range on his indicator?

Dreadlocks6 votes

I think his old kit was fine and they shouldve just played around with nerfing/chsnging his ult to have more counter play.

I miss her3 votes

Yeah man you're so right lol. I don't understand why all the people are crying when Riot obviously nailed the rework perfectly. His kit is extremely smooth and all of his abilities go together really well with satisfying sound effects and animations! And above all, he no longer 1shots!! At least he's not as oppressive to play against right? It's not like he has insane zoning potential or anything haha good rework btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKl5l4GbRDE

Thefrostyviking1 votes

A montage of monsterously fed rengar's oneshotting won't impress me much, i´d take a second look if someone survived though.

Current Rengar is the same as any assassin, feed them like hell and he will become a monster, but you can not feed him too.

That wasn't quite an option before when he had the ability to ulti and then jump 2 seconds later with hardly any indication, or the tripple auto reset or double Q.

Or when he went around carrying a 2 seconds snare into lane.

Or the complete invisibility when ulting which allowed him to reach enemy backline with 0 counterplay available x)

But its true that he was really strong still, even after reworks.

Which is why he was thus nerfed really, really hard and here we are.

the boss baby4 votes

The invisiblity mechanics change solves those problems though, no more ult and zone, youd know where he is. Damage is not a question here, i played against a malzahar with a 2 dorans rings and he ulted me then ignited and i died instantly, I had MR runes too. Feed a champ and they'll do damage. Rengar's 2 sec snare wasn't a problem, because it was a skillshot very similar to elise cocoon, you can miss it, and the difference is that if Rengar uses the snare, he loses q damage, or w, and if he misses it they escape. And old rengar was countered by wards, good ward placement and you'd know exactly where he was.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

The zoning comes from the indicator mechanic where he is only able to see the closest person, but it's also that function that serves as a limiter to prevent him from diving down on backlines or even finding those backlines.

Malz ulti at 6 with 60 AP deals 125 AP + 115% AP + 2% of targets max health per second.

Ulti duration is 2,5

Which champ did you play=? Well i´ll use an average.

Thus with 50 AP at 6 a full ulti deals :

125 + (1,15 x 60=69) + (820 x 0,02 x 2,5=41) = 125+69+41 =235 =full ulti damage.

Before resistance, with around 50 mr you'd have 40% magic damage reduction.

235 x 0,6 =141.

ignite a t 6 deals 170.

311 damage from ulti+ignite.

You claim to to have died instantly? I dare say you'd die from anything at that point with so little health left.

And Rengar's E is huge, compared to elise's cocoon it's about 1,5 times larger in hitbox., against a immoible champ this was a surefire death sentence and it's one of the main reasons ferocity was reworked.

And he snowballs a lot harder than elise too.

Countered by wards? That argument goes around a lot against a number of junglers and yet the people using said argument always wind up disappointed when their favorite winds up dumpstered after Riot confirmed that the champ was OP and nothing else.

I´d expect Zac to encounter that fate sooner or later as things are looking now, and yet many of his current playerbase aruge that he's "countered by good wards".

That argument, i don't hold any faith in, at all.

You clearly conveniently forget important parts of your arguments, painting a picture you´d like to see but the reality i have before me looks quite different.

I´d recommend you get your math straight first of all, because you clearly don't know how to count which kills the idea of having a numbers based discussion with you.

And the fact that you conveniently omnit parts of events that don't suit you also makes you a bit hard to believe in. Your idea to argue using malz was fine right up until you started bullshiting about his capabilities infront of someone who actually plays the champ.

Warkinge1 votes

A little question

If Rengar used to one shot when fed, and if new Rengar one shot when fed. (And do not say once more one shot in 2 seconds it gives me hearth attacks I hope you at leaSt know what's the meaning of one shot) and if it was one of the problems. It means it has not been fixed. Wich leads to a failed Rework.

Well, it is true that old Rengar E snare was too oppressive. And much can be done to gut it down while still having a fine and smoother gameplay just like a lot of people who have a Rengar knowledge said. I'll let you check by your self.

For your "omg he passedall the front line" I'll say one world Camouflage.

For lack of awareness, we never said that the indicator should be removed just to be more fair for Rengar players. So you really think that a 2000/3000/4000 indicator is fair for a champion? Imagine Zed saying in all chat I'm coming bot 1 minute rigth befor he comes in that's truly fair enough I think but nor for Zed. Plus we assume getting one shot ed and gutted from stealth is shitty. A voice indicator is much fair for both Rengar players and opponents. While keeping the old indictor of 1400 range. Befor you say it would be really shitty that top lanland fear Rengar while his bot well making the sound effect counting about 3000/4000/5000 to avoid any kind of problemes.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Old rengar could easily snowball brutally hard, mainly due to the ability to carry his snare around.

I am a bit surprised you agree to this point because everyone else called me dumb ass for saying it ._.

As for oneshot.....well i´ll admit i am using it the wrong way to due boards influence, a 100-0 combo in a matter of 1-2 seconds is the right way to describe it but i am a bit lazy when typing and the effect is often the same, target dies.

So.....for your ulti argument i´ll try to summarize my understanding.

You want to keep the camouflage rather than invisibility but cut the indicator range?

It's somewhat fair i think actually.

But i doubt the issue´s of rengar will ever disappear as long as he camp jump on his target of choice with 0 penalties for it. People will never accept him being able to do that for the same reason they hate twitch and his long range burst crit ultimate deleting carries in a second before they can react.

Then as for time on indicator.....there is probably no way around it in the end, because people will never accept rengar being able to dive and burst their backline with his ultimate. This type of gamestyle will never be endorsed from any champ.

Even kata is disliked by many and she often jumps fully visible from the front.

And a Zed roaming has at least 20-40 (depending on way and boots) seconds of a warning if his enemy midlaner pings the moment he's gone.

This is why rengar will never be accepted for having less than 10 seconds warning when ulting either, for altho a jungler he´ll still often instagibb any slower or weaker carry that's even slightly mispositioned or if he´s strong, outright kill them under the tower.

That happened to me a lot, sad times and also one of the reasons i can't really find myself enjoying the though of him being strong.

Maybe just as with Yasuo, people will never trust eachother not to feed the enemy Yasuo thus he remains permabanned, because no one wants to deal with a fed one.

Something similar is probably what'll keep rengar from ever beign reverted, because Riot know's he'd be permabanned immediately if they do that.

I know i would ban him at least, because i could never trust my teams to not feed one x)

Hinarin0017 votes

People keep saying he will be "permabanned" if he gets reverted. He was barely banned, as people couldn't care less about Rengar. He was only good at assassinating squishies. He didn't do jack shit damage to any people that built any form of resistance, heck, even a Cloth Armor would work. I'm pretty sure he had a winrate of around 46%. Stop making it sound that bad as you make it out to be.

Xion The XIV5 votes

Are we talking about the old rengar where if he goes bot lane as support or adc and buys 3xitem 1036 your adc will never walk past the tower ever again? I know rengar became trash, but I don't also want to see him going back to Lee Sin status of instant bursting someone at lvl 3 with 1050 gold worth of items.

ghsucbyuc28 votes

He became trash? The old Rengar was trash. This one is stronger. But, the old one was better in terms of gameplay.

abca9826 votes

{quoted}

Are we talking about the old rengar where if he goes bot lane as support or adc and buys 3xitem 1036 your adc will never walk past the tower ever again? I know rengar became trash, but I don't also want to see him going back to Lee Sin status of instant bursting someone at lvl 3 with 1050 gold worth of items.

Tell me your secret to have 1050 gold at level 3

Tranoze2 votes

If you revert the Q, rengar will die, yes die so much in the jungle. Raptors + krugs require you to deal more AOE damage, which rengar cant do it with his W. Because it require him to farm a lot early game, this will hurt him alot.

Drazhâr9 votes

This is not really a problem. His first clear would be a bit slower than usual, but once he rushes tiamat, he will be totally fine.

Plus, there are people that play Rengar top as well.

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