I'm the author of this post: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/q3scZE41-thoughts-on-rengar-revert There has been an insane amount of attention my post has gotten, more upvotes than I've ever seen.
There is no way Riot, at least 1 employee, has not seen this.
Why have you gone silent Riot. We are your community and drive your game forward.
We can't drive League of Legends forward if you keep driving us back.
RiotRiot Ranger XIV100 votesHey everyone,
I do want to start this response with acknowledging a couple of things. WE do read these posts, we do think about it and we do talk about them with each other. It can take some time for us to gather what we want to say about each topic which is why it may feel like we are silent, sometimes. There are many ways a single response can be taken, so we like to have everything in line before we talk so that we can communicate our intentions clearly.
Rengar is clearly on a lot of people's minds right now. PLEASE do not think you are throwing feedback down an abyss. Please do not think we are ignoring players about Rengar. We are not, as we do love this game and are players as well.
While we don't have any plans to touch Rengar currently I want to stress that these conversations between players can help us build ideas in the future. So thank you for taking the time to respond and make posts about things that you care about.
-Ranger XIV
Dreadlocks19 votesWhile we don't have any plans to touch Rengar currently I want to stress that these conversations between players can help us build ideas in the future.
By currently do you mean this year? Does the Future mean Next year? Can you give us something that says you won't leave him the way he is?
Thanks for having the courage to step in and put in some words. I appreciate a non sarcastic response anyday.
RiotRiot Ranger XIV30 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=00170001,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:06:44.948+0000)
By currently do you mean this year? Does the Future mean Next year? Can you give us something that says you won't leave him the way he is?
Thanks for having the courage to step in and put in some words. I appreciate a non sarcastic response anyday.
Hey Rengar Revert,
I can't say either of those things, personally I do not know. I just know that our team does not ignore this stuff and helps us understand player feelings and player pain.
So again, thank you for reaching out to the boards with these view points and comments.
Dreadlocks8 votesI feel like I could gain a LOT of respect from this company if they did.. The passion/attachment some of your players have to the champions released is honestly insane. I really hope you at the very least try to keep us posted about this as much as you reasonably can...
Again, thank you for your time and professionalism. Really hope to get more information soon. A lot of us would be at least happy with some kind of time frame when you guys find one. An announcement saying "Rengar will be revised around X date" Would be fantastic to hear.. And even though we would hate to hear "Rengar will not be revised" it is better than leaving us hanging.
So again, Thanks for the reply. Thanks for not being Sarcastic (Q: Nice Meme) And we hope to get more info soon.
RiotRiot Ranger XIV30 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=0017000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:39:43.843+0000)
I feel like I could gain a LOT of respect from this company if they did.. The passion/attachment some of your players have to the champions released is honestly insane. I really hope you at the very least try to keep us posted about this as much as you reasonably can...
Again, thank you for your time and professionalism. Really hope to get more information soon. A lot of us would be at least happy with some kind of time frame when you guys find one. An announcement saying "Rengar will be revised around X date" Would be fantastic to hear.. And even though we would hate to hear "Rengar will not be revised" it is better than leaving us hanging.
So again, Thanks for the reply. Thanks for not being Sarcastic (Q: Nice Meme) And we hope to get more info soon.
I feel you Rengar Revert, the reason I posted was because the worst feeling, is being in limbo and wanted people to know Riot does not ignore the boards and comments. When we are ready to we will, I know that isn't the best answer but that is the only one I can give to you right now. We do try to update when we are working on something when we do feel that we are sure we are going to do something or not do something but I know that is a long wait sometimes. So thank you for being patient and caring so much :D Have a great day!
RiotRiot Ranger XIV22 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Ranger XIV,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=00170001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:47:18.726+0000)
I feel you Rengar Revert, the reason I posted was because the worst feeling, is being in limbo and wanted people to know Riot does not ignore the boards and comments. When we are ready to we will, I know that isn't the best answer but that is the only one I can give to you right now. We do try to update when we are working on something when we do feel that we are sure we are going to do something or not do something but I know that is a long wait sometimes. So thank you for being patient and caring so much :D Have a great day!
I said we a lot....
Dreadlocks7 votesHonestly man.. it's fine. lol. I say "feel" a lot because as corny as it is, i love this champion. Afterall I have him tattoo'd on my shoulder. :S
After talking to a lot of other Rengar mains, I think one of the most important things we would like to convey is, we want both the hunter, and the hunted.. to have fun. Right now, neither of us are really enjoying it.
A smooth champion that doesnt have a cast delay/animation on every spell goes a long way. Right now if you're losing your ferocity stacks, you get locked out of even casting a normal spell. It's very clunky and frustrating.
But really, talking to you is seriously a huge deal to me. You should come around more often :) Thanks for feeling more like a friend, rather than a dictator.
RiotRiot Ranger XIV17 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=0017000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:58:45.637+0000)
Honestly man.. it's fine. lol. I say "feel" a lot because as corny as it is, i love this champion. Afterall I have him tattoo'd on my shoulder. :S
After talking to a lot of other Rengar mains, I think one of the most important things we would like to convey is, we want both the hunter, and the hunted.. to have fun. Right now, neither of us are really enjoying it.
A smooth champion that doesnt have a cast delay/animation on every spell goes a long way. Right now if you're losing your ferocity stacks, you get locked out of even casting a normal spell. It's very clunky and frustrating.
But really, talking to you is seriously a huge deal to me. You should come around more often :) Thanks for feeling more like a friend, rather than a dictator.
Of course! We are all players man. If someone was going to do changes to my favorite champion, I'd have a lot of feedback to give. Whether it be good or bad it would just flow out of me.
Dreadlocks2 votesWell i hope you can convince "The Man" to give the go on some changes for Rengar Testing :)
Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votesNot related to the topic... But what's your favorite champ ?[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]
RiotRiot Ranger XIV28 votes[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=001700010000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-06-13T00:38:30.786+0000)
Not related to the topic... But what's your favorite champ ?[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]
This can't end well... I swear I'm a good person! Syndra....
TheJan1tor6 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Ranger XIV,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=0017000100000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-13T00:41:35.375+0000)
This can't end well... I swear I'm a good person! Syndra....
...No you're not...
RiotRiot Ranger XIV15 votes...No you're not...
I know... but I love her theme and VO
Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 voteshum... her theme...
U mean skillz aka press R [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Sp33d Zer024 votesI think he meant thighs.
Warkinge3 votesWhat do you mean ?!!!
Syndra is an amazing champion. She's fun to play, have fun spells a pretty cool mechanisms. Her gameplay is pretty good too.
Not talking about her dark theme and her dark obscure voice Wich are so good.
The guy who had (or guys) Syndra idea as a theme is genius person !
How she's balanced is just something for pro players Kappa.
NinjaGuy692 votesWhether it be good or bad it would just flow out of me.
I guess I'll let it flow then. Here's a few points to consider for future assassins:
Lastly, what did you do with the thirteen rangers that came before you?
Dreadlocks5 votesHard cc doesn't belong anywhere on an assassin's kit.
An idea i actually came up with was giving Rengar's E a GROUNDED effect, rather than a snare.
Spideraxe1 votesHey Ranger I know you QA for Champ Up are you on any of the big VGUs for Urgot or Eve or a hush hush thing that we haven't learned about yet
RiotRiot Ranger XIV15 votesHey Ranger I know you QA for Champ Up are you on any of the big VGUs for Urgot or Eve or a hush hush thing that we haven't learned about yet
I am on Eve, just finished up with Galio.
sirwaterfles2 votesThanks for the galio update. Even though i liked the old galio and didnt think he needed a mayor update, i just love the new galio.
Melledoneus8 votesThank you for coming to tell us this. If I may, I would like to ask a question:
If you do work on Rengar sometime in the future, would you see him being more of a diver or an assassin? Just wondering.
RiotRiot Ranger XIV13 votesThank you for coming to tell us this. If I may, I would like to ask a question:
If you do work on Rengar sometime in the future, would you see him being more of a diver or an assassin? Just wondering.
You can always ask questions and I will try and answer.
It would be up to the team and designer that is working on it. So I wouldn't be able to tell you from where I stand.
TheJan1tor5 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Ranger XIV,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=001700020000,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:36:31.100+0000)
You can always ask questions and I will try and answer.
It would be up to the team and designer that is working on it. So I wouldn't be able to tell you from where I stand.
Is there anything the community (not just the Rengar player base) can do to help expedite the process / continue trying to raise positive awareness with these concerns?
I understand the stereotype regarding Rengar players (especially right now) is that they tend to throw around empty statements without putting in a considerable amount of analytical work with a TL;DR along the lines of "Revert or Riot" -- but some of us have actually made honest efforts to acknowledge what was wrong with the Old Rengar, and expressed why we feel parts of the New Rengar are a problem.
With that said, what has the community been doing wrong -- and what can we do to improve on this process in the future?
RiotRiot Ranger XIV10 votesIs there anything the community (not just the Rengar player base) can do to help expedite the process / continue trying to raise positive awareness with these concerns?
I understand the stereotype regarding Rengar players (especially right now) is that they tend to throw around empty statements without putting in a considerable amount of analytical work with a TL;DR along the lines of "Revert or Riot" -- but some of us have actually made honest efforts to acknowledge what was wrong with the Old Rengar, and expressed why we feel parts of the New Rengar are a problem.
With that said, what has the community been doing wrong -- and what can we do to improve on this process in the future?
I appreciate you Sslackbeard on wanting to get better but you all do a great job. Emotional responses are fantastic and help me truly understand how you feel. Also this game is built from players that love this game and certain players love it differently. Takes all types :) So just be you and do the best you can.
Skins Project2 votesCan I just say I love the purple chroma for Headhunter Rengar? (I made OTP acc dedicated to it recently) Props on that!
That being said, considering what happened with Heimer and Kindred, is it possible we the community could see something like that again for rengar? Or, if the balance team is still a bit stuck, maybe a community suggestions one rather then what do we think about the changes? Plzzzz :D <3
Skins Project1 votesCmonnn ;(
Notice me Ranger Senpai!
RiotRiot Ranger XIV5 votes[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=001700020000000000000001,timestamp=2017-06-13T04:31:24.575+0000)
Cmonnn ;(
Notice me Ranger Senpai!
<3 Skins Project, notice me! <3
Nefas4 votesI realize this will be a controversial and pointed question, but I'm still going to ask it in the hope that you will hear me out and give a thoughtful response or pass this on to other Rioters. I am asking this earnestly in the hopes of improving future reworks since this isn't a new issue.
Why should whether Rengar be a diver or assassin be up solely to the team/designer? Why shouldn't the players have more of a say? Isn't there a pretty big problem when Rengar, who was included in the assassin update and a Rioter gave a sarcastic reply that yes of course that means Rengar would stay an assassin, is suddenly listed as a diver by Riot when the class sub lists came out without any warning? Shouldn't getting existing player buy-in matter much more when it comes to major shifts in role like this? This feels very similar to Morde, who Riot hamfisted into Bot lane without any buy-in from players on such a major role change. And we all know how that turned out. It may be that Rengar is overall healthier for the game if he is a diver, but it should be on Riot to make that case to the players, not just drop things seemingly out of the blue.
The communication just doesn't feel like it is there when Riot makes major role changes like this. It just feels capricious and up to the whim of who happens to be working on the champ at the time, without taking the long term views of the playerbase into much account.
Chaosrain771 votesThank you for coming to tell us this. If I may, I would like to ask a question:
If you do work on Rengar sometime in the future, would you see him being more of a diver or an assassin? Just wondering.
They said assassin a few months ago, look how he turned out lol. Clearly not an assassin FeelsBadMan
Melledoneus4 votesPeople like you are the reason Riot doesn't talk to us.
subhuman team XD2 votesthank you for noticing at least , i hope rengar's issue will be addressed when time comes , i really appreciate your effort thanks for letting us know :D
Swarovsko3 votesPLEASE do not think you are throwing feedback down an abyss
makes me wanna cry since Karma players felt so ignored for so long but I still feel like you guys couldn't give a single fuck and barely read posts about Karma
subhuman team XD3 votesRiot has commented on karma so many times , i even asked them in one of their pbe streams and they said Karma is going to be saved for a full SCALE REWORK , so dont worry your time is coming soon , just not now , and tbh shes really fine where shes at atm so just be patient my friend ;)
ChaosThief58 votesThey have probably gone silent because of the community reaction on the boards.
Right now it seems like a witch hunt rather than a "let's fix Rengar" thing at the current moment in time. People want the old kit instead of trying to find a compromise between his new kit and hit old kit.
In other words... if you want them to respond, you'll either have to give it time, or figure out a way to calm the community down a bit. It's like taking a lollipop from a baby, they'll cry for a while then calm down when they get tired.
If you want them to listen to a Rengar rework, then please, consider the following:
His Q, if possible, should not be an auto attack enhancer. This is too reliable on a champion with an ult that lets them leap on their target from further than a ranged basic attack can handle, as well as just being able to do this from bushes.
His old Q was too hard to balance. It gave too little room for his enemies to fight and too much for the Rengar. If possible, it should not be returned, because of these reasons. It probably tied down Rengar's power budget a little too much as a result.
His new Q, however, suffers from other problems. It solved the whole "no counter for opponents" thing because he had to already be next to his foes, but it feels... off, all around, from what I'm hearing. Clunky and just not fitting with Rengar himself.
So in other words, you need to think of a Q that is not only smooth and easy to use, but also something an enemy can play around besides "stay X units away from Rengar or pain ensues."
His W... I don't know the direction it should go, whether proactive or reactive. Both seem to have their own issues, so that is probably for those more qualified than me to say.
His E is stated to be fine, so we can leave that. No need to fix something that doesn't need fixing.
And finally, his Ult. His R. The infamous "I'm going to kill you and there is almost nothing you can do to stop me" ability. Time and time again, this ult has proved to be far too problematic. So what I suggest is simple; change it entirely.
It's clear that the ult, regardless of what it gives, will be a problem just because of the nature of how it works. If Rengar is ahead, you can't stop him unless you are a one main CC chaining master. If he's behind, it does nothing to help him. So why not make it more interesting instead of "stealth and see everything"? Make it so that Rengar has to interact with his surroundings. Like Rengar can leap from bush to bush around the map (not globally of course), or make it so that Rengar can track his foes. Simply revealing and giving an indicator doesn't seem to be cutting it balance wise.
No, I'm not a Rengar main. I have played him in all his forms, and quite frankly, it's beginning to become overly obvious that Riot wants to avoid certain designs for Rengar, and players simply want a revert because of other reasons. Find a middle ground and work from there. His old kit won't cut it, but that doesn't mean you have to scrap everything.
the boss baby9 votesMy entire post was a concept on how to reach a compromise between the two. I didn't treat like a witch hunt, and all the comments are people asking for a response from riot.
Chembaron Yamada5 votesSorry, but I have to agree with his statement. It really feels like a witch hunt at this point, at least from my point of view as an uninvolved observer.
There is no way Riot, at least 1 employee, has not seen this.
Why have you gone silent Riot. We are your community and drive your game forward.
We can't drive League of Legends forward if you keep driving us back.
For example this part of this thread. You are putting alot of pressure out there. Not to mention the huge amount of threads about Rengar that is getting pumped out at this time and many of them are pretty aggressive towards Riot.
You said it yourself, Riot is probably aware of these threads. But it seems they have chosen to wait for the community to calm down. There is no point in further pressuring them, it will just increase the time to get a response from them.
WiccanBKaplan3 votesI agree with ChaosThief about how someone could perceive the immense response about reverting Rengar as a "Witch Hunt" because while the OG post and responses may have been meant well, when diving into the comments there is a lot of negativity and passive aggressive; if not just plain aggressive comments and calls for the revert/changes.
Reading it all made me upset because I understand seeing something you don't like and being vocal and passionate about a character you love (me with the state of Sol and his game-play/lack of skins) but you have to understand the workings within Riot to know how things work and are processed.
A reminder: You posted this and the OG post on the weekend where there is a lack of response from the main rioters because it is their time off (not including player help and assistance which is a 24/7 job). Not to mention that Riot may want to write a actual forum post / dev blog / nexus post about this and address the desire and uproar the Rengar player-base are making. Engaging with the people in a already riled up and aggressive post is bad news and I have seen Rioters struggle to get their points/plans/ideas across when the player base are super passionate and not willing to listen or understand; an example is when Riot Bioluminescence replied about maps and got bombarded with aggressive responses. They wouldn't listen to her or accept her responses, even calling her out of sentence structure and her manner of replying for no other reason that to be aggressive/rude and push for the answer they are looking for.
Similar to Rengar, Kog'maw was reworked in Preseason of Season 6 and wasn't reverted until near the end of the season in Patch 6.19. It took them that long to work out what they should do, but you being vocal can speed it up, just don't be douches about it and give them time to work it all out and make sure what they are going to do is gonna work for them, the game and for you. Be patient. [slayer-jinx-catface]
ChaosThief6 votesEven if you are not witch hunting, that's the current perception. There will be immediate negative comments and essentially attacking the Riot employees if they respond now.
Just give it time. Once the outrage dies down, you can get something done.
Hitman Reñgar9 votesI don't agree with it all. The old Q alone was not bad, it wasn't oneshotting anyone. The problem was when you'd load/prepare it all before ulting, resulting in a massive burst. If pretty much everything BUT the ult was reverted, with the exception that ult can't crit, Rengar would be pretty solid although his ult would still remain a zoning ult which is troubling.
Instead, make him lose ALL ferocity stacks when ulting. This will never let Rengar oneshot like he did in the old days. The burst would be delayed and guess what, that was the main intention of the rework!
ChaosThief4 votesYes, the old Q was not one shotting people. It was however, still inflicting a great amount of pain, and double Q usually could nearly kill a squishy, with his other spells it certainly did.
Hitman Reñgar5 votesYeah well it's the same for a Kha'Zix or a Talon really. Doesn't even have to be isolated.
DunkinNoobs22 votesIn what universe is reverting Rengar "driving the game forward"? The only rework that's ever been reverted is Kog'maw and that's only because pre-rework Kog'maw, while somewhat bland, was at least inoffensive in design. No one can honestly say the same about pre-rework Rengar.
Basic PR 101: You never wade into a circlejerk and tell people no unless you absolutely have to. You have nothing to gain by opening your mouth when none of your answers will satisfy the mob, so keep silent. You don't need a response from Riot; the silence is your response.
Dreadlocks2 votes
oh and 
have all goten small reworks to try to address their underline problem (whether they succeeded or not is not really the point) Asking for a complete revert is agreeably not smart/ideal.
We Rengar mains simply want the champion to do what is was designed to do. Majority of us don't like this Fighter Rengar, He's a Hunter.. Not a a sword fighting cat.. It would be nice that Rengar at least got some attention to try and bring back the identity that Riot somehow managed to strip in the rework.
DunkinNoobs5 votes[{quoted}](name=Rengar Revert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:29:05.986+0000)
We Rengar mains simply want the champion to do what is was designed to do.
It's a shame that what he's designed to do is precisely the problem.
Dreadlocks3 votesI know what you're saying, but we have other Hunter-like champions in the game that manage.. We even have some that arn't hunters that can do precisely what he does to multiple people at once. Hopefully Riot can find a middle ground like i said for both the Hunter, and the Hunted.
420 grams7 votesWow, they haven't figured out a solution and figured out all the coding to implement it and communicate that plan to boards moderators since the weekend? LET'S FORM A MOB AND MARCH ON THEIR DOORSTEP
OyddAWqJ5r3 votesLmfao when you make a thread about Riot being silent and it gets hijacked tf out of by Riot
Maddéy2 votesRiot hasn't gone silent, they have never been vocal on this kind of stuff. I haven't played enough games on old and new rengar to tell whether he has gone for worse or better, but if majority of the players dedicated to him are saying that old was better - I believe that he indeed was. Im sure that Riot is going to adress Rengar sooner or later, but revert perspective is just not going to happen. When you look at Quinn, and maybe Malzahar and when you look at the feedback their respective players have given you will realise that Riot would rather bandaid some of the issues they have provoked rather than going back to the fundament and starting the work from the scratch. I dont know what has pushed them to revert Kog'Maw, but I wish I did know.
Blakiepug3 votes[{quoted}](name=Muck Mike,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9beyBe7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-12T18:06:13.289+0000)
Riot hasn't gone silent, they have never been vocal on this kind of stuff. I haven't played enough games on old and new rengar to tell whether he has gone for worse or better, but if majority of the players dedicated to him are saying that old was better - I believe that he indeed was. Im sure that Riot is going to adress Rengar sooner or later, but revert perspective is just not going to happen. When you look at Quinn, and maybe Malzahar and when you look at the feedback their respective players have given you will realise that Riot would rather bandaid some of the issues they have provoked rather than going back to the fundament and starting the work from the scratch. I dont know what has pushed them to revert Kog'Maw, but I wish I did know.
The issue is, while Riot has been better about communicating with the community lately, they often ignore discussing certain topics such as this. Champions and their playerbases go ignored for years while others are specifically catered to and given significant open dialogue from Riot themselves. For example, let's look at Jhin who fell out of the top tier ADC category for the first time in a full year about two months ago. Reds comment on Jhin threads that they are looking for ways to bring Jhin back up and now buffs are headed out for him this Wednesday. If we look at another champion such as Tahm Kench, many threads discussing Tahm have been ignored despite him being in the lowest tier for supports over a year now. We even see threads asking simple questions like 'why can't Tahm Kench eat blue/red buff?' hit the front page quite often and go ignored. As a result, Tahm players feel very left out in comparison to Jhin players due to a lack of communication.
The same has been happening with the majority of champion reworks for a long time now. Players question reworks such as Malzahar's and Rengar's and what isn't working about the post-rework kit, but these discussions are never given any dialogue. They just go ignored, as Riot proceeds to nerf these champions patch after patch like they are all Azir and pretend like everything is alright when really a viable, fun champion has just been taking and thrown into the dumpster, along with the voices of the players who enjoyed that champion before any of this happened.