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Zoe gets rewarded too much for missing her E

undesirable team··56 votes·2,080 views

This ability is single-handedly one of the strongest cc's in the game on a basic ability. It's a long range high speed nuke that easily follows up to a one shot. On top of this, she gets cooldown reduced every time she puts an enemy to sleep, which results in it being very spammable. In addition to this she can miss it, and have a trap that lasts 4 fucking seconds. To relate to this, Camille ult lasts 4 seconds when at level 16. My suggestion to this would be to nerf it (obviously). How?
-Nerfing the trap. Even though this thing gets popped by minions, it's still pretty bullshit to play around. -Taking away the cooldown reduction for hitting it. It has a low cooldown for such a strong ability anyway, why have it? -Base damage. 60 Damage (+40% AP) is kind of stupid at level 1. This makes your E-Q combo do 106% AP damage + 40% AP True damage + 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 E Base damage + 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 E Base True Damge + 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 Damage. Her damage can easily one shot an adc from a huge distance, even if she is behind. This creates a frustrating champion to play against, because even though you shut her down, she still manages to one shot you or do a massive chunk of your health and slow/cc you.

42 Comments

Vekkna7 votes

Umm...you have the damage on her Q way, way wrong. At max distance it's:

113 / 188 / 263 / 338 / 413 + (1.65 AP)

EQ actually does 205% AP + 40% AP true.

She literally has an ult for a Q.

Unreformed Shaco5 votes

{quoted}

Umm...you have the damage on her Q way, way wrong. At max distance it's:

113 / 188 / 263 / 338 / 413 + (1.65 AP)

EQ actually does 205% AP + 40% AP true.

She literally has an ult for a Q.

That's because her ult does 0 damage.

Name another midlaner who has a 0 damage ult.

Vekkna5 votes

Ok, so if we give a champ 3 utility spells and a 1-shot on Q, that's totally fair?

Why not put Cho's ult on his W and then give him a dash on his ult? See how fucking stupid that sounds?

Wimbledofy5 votes

Cho ult does true damage and is targeted.

Votable Jester1 votes

I mean Zoe's ult is almost just an inferior Leblanc W.

Also her E and Q (which will be telegraphed) can both be blocked by a champion, minion, or monster.

People basically just suck at playing against her right now. If someone blocks her Q early it deals far less damage and the time spent during her ult can be long enough to engage her when she returns from it.

Vekkna1 votes

Dude, I know what skill shots are. I know that they're blockable.

"But it's a skill shot" is not a justification for 814 + 2.45 AP every 9 seconds on EQ at 0% CDR.

I mean, the only skill comparable damage-wise to Zoe's Q is Evelynn's Q. Zoe's max Q damage is 414 + 1.65 AP for a single hit. Evelynn's Q is 330 + 1.95 AP split between 7 damage packets delivered over ~1.7 seconds after landing a skillshot and having your target be the closest enemy for the entire duration.

Meanwhile, Zoe just EQ insta-gibs you from the fog.

Votable Jester1 votes

So you're close enough for Zoe to reach with a QRQ, fail to dodge her E, can't/don't cleanse her E, don't dash/blink away, don't shield or heal, nobody body blocks for you, and you haven't built more than perhaps boots as resistance. Yeah you're dead.

I fail to see how that's less fair than Kha'zix for example coming out of stealth and bursting you. At least with Zoe you can dodge the stuff, cleanse it to get away, or use some utility during the drowsy state to get out of range.

Vekkna1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxEy5A7b,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-04T17:21:32.929+0000)

So you're close enough for Zoe to reach with a QRQ, fail to dodge her E, can't/don't cleanse her E, don't dash/blink away, don't shield or heal, nobody body blocks for you, and you haven't built more than perhaps boots as resistance. Yeah you're dead.

You just described "counterplay to a skillshot."

And yet, Vel'koz isn't getting 414 + 1.65 AP for landing a Q. Nobody does that except Zoe. I mean, ffs Anivia's Q (320 + .8) and E (300 + 1.0) at max damage doesn't even touch Zoe's EQ. Even that is mostly justified by her severe immobility and sky-high mana costs.

Votable Jester1 votes

Anivia Q compared to Zoe E: 4-6 sec shorter cd. 2.4-1.8 shorter assuming Zoe E hits an enemy champion. Anivia Q can damage and stun multiple enemies. Anivia stun is not interupted by damage. Zoe E base damage 0-60(*2) higher than Anivia Q and second part does true damage rather than magic. Anivia E range is 275 more than Zoe's though Zoe's gets extended by a wall.

Anivia Q provides superior mid-combat cc and nearly equal damage (higher if Zoe E is procced by something weak). Zoe E provides better catch potential and single target burst.

Anivia E compared to Zoe Q: Cooldown 3.5-2.25 seconds shorter. Damage difference is difficult to tell for mid-fight (can't get full Zoe Q damage), but Zoe Q has much higher potential damage. Anivia E is targeted while Zoe Q is a skillshot. Anivia E has 150 lower range.

Zoe E has superior one-shot potential and hits a small area. Anivia's E is more reliable and can be cast most often in a fight.

Basically these are two different sets of abilities with Zoe's having superior catching capabilities and one-shots while Anivia's have superior mid-fight capability. Also Anivias absurd mana cost is mostly on her ult (her Q too, but that only gets expensive at higher ranks and she maxes that second).

Finally (hopefully you read this far), Zoe's E and Q have more counterplay than most skillshots. If you fail to proc the second part of her E, the damage is fairly low. Q also has to travel a significant distance to build up damage meaning you have to either predict where they will be at the end of that flight or have them cced for the duration.

Other poke abilities are generally fire and forget, like Vel'koz Q (that can fork off at any point, increasing the odds of landing) and Xerath Q. Consequently they do less damage (though they have their own advantages).

Vekkna1 votes

Look, I never said that Zoe's skills are literally identical, higher-damage versions of another champ's skills.

But I do play this game, and it's harder to land EQ on Vel'koz or QE on Anivia than it is to land EQ on Zoe. Vel's Q is more visible and easier to dodge. Anivia's are slower moving and/or closer range, and her early damage and CDR are heavily gated by mana.

Zoe's spells are generally less readable and much faster moving, but the damage and scaling are drastically higher. And yet, her early damage and CDR are not heavily delayed by Tear or Catalyst.

The end result is a champ who is rewarded more than other champs for landing skill shots with a similar (or lower) skill requirement.

Votable Jester1 votes

Actually Anivia's Q is pretty quick now (they nerfed damage and increased speed a while ago) and her E's speed doesn't really matter since it's targeted.

Both Anivia's and Vel'koz's cc hits an aoe and both of them have significantly more cc in their kits than Zoe.

I could see them adding more visibility to Zoe's E, but I think her Q at least is fine.

I've played all three of these champions a significant amount (though Anivia was a while ago), and they have their own strengths. Yes, Zoe is more rewarded for landing her skillshots, but the other two are able to completely destroy in teamfights thanks to their ults, massive aoe, and cc.

Vel'koz is also pretty low mana cost btw.

EkyonKun9 votes

TwistedFate Kayle Ryze Taliyah Zilean

Unreformed Shaco3 votes

{quoted}

TwistedFate Kayle Ryze Taliyah Zilean

Kayle isn't mid. Zilean isn't mid.

TF doesn't have a damaging ult, but his EQ auto will 100-0 most people, just like Zoe.

Ryze doesn't need it when his Q has no cd.

EkyonKun5 votes

23% of the time Kayle is in a game, she's mid 33% of the time Zilean is in a game, he's mid

You asked for mid laners with no damage on their ult, so I provided. I wasn't arguing whether or not they could 100-0 or if they have otherwise low cooldowns.

Unreformed Shaco3 votes

{quoted}

23% of the time Kayle is in a game, she's mid 33% of the time Zilean is in a game, he's mid

You asked for mid laners with no damage on their ult, so I provided. I wasn't arguing whether or not they could 100-0 or if they have otherwise low cooldowns.

23%, 33%?

So you're saying the vast majority of their playtime is not in mid. They are not mid laners.

You're right. There are midlaners who have no damage on their ult, and to make up for it, their other skills have high damage. That was my point.

EkyonKun3 votes

I guess secondary roles don't exist.

I hope you know both Riot and many tier list sites recognize them as not only viable, but often strong mid lane picks.

Anyway if we're really comparing them fairly:

TwistedFate needs to be late game vs a squishy to kill with his QWE auto alone. Otherwise he's a roaming stun bot with respectable damage.

Kayle is DPS oriented and has no hard cc, needs to scale late game.

Ryze is very combo reliant and does very little damage when combo'd wrong.

Taliyah is very combo reliant and needs careful placement of her EW and proper aim of her Q to do anything.

Zilean Is the closest thing to Zoe really. One damaging ability that hurts like hell.

But that's not really a fair comparison either. Zilean's double bombs are his only form of damage. Zoe has her passive, Q, W, and E.

Zoe's EQ combo at level 9 does (512.5 + 205% AP) magic damage + (100 + 40% AP) true damage. Ignoring passive and W.

Zilean's QWQ combo at level 9 does 600 + 180% AP magic damage. This is all his magic damage in a single combo.

I know different champions have different kits and need to be treated differently, but I can understand when people talk about how much is packed into her EQ.

RottedApples4 votes

they've both been played mid professionally before (admittedly kayle has been a while) and they are occasionally played mid even in high soloQ i think.

As far as i'm concerned they can be mid laners and therefore they fit the bill.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Zilean is a mid laner... He's always been both mid and supp. Only recently his supp got some help to fit.

Not to mention he's always been one of the strongest mid laners in the game.

wildfox992 votes

Name another midlaner who has a 0 damage ult.

Taliyah TwistedFate Zilean (53%+ wr mid since 1 or 2 season,he's a mid laner) Ryze Kayle Veigar (ops,my bad) then ult which won't be used as damage (or their damage is low) Ahri (low damage,good for her mobility,after early game she can't hit all her ult damage if she don't want to die) Ekko (will mostly use his ult for escaping/preventing damage,you rarely make an use of its damage) Azir (good only for disengage/insec,using it as damage makes no sense since a soldier AA deals more damage and it have less cast time)

still is not like she doesn't have an ult,her ult doesn't give her damage but an insanely good "mobility",if she ults from a safe place she can't even get CC'd while she ult (she will get CC'd but her ult won't get stopped)

Psyrix1 votes

Lol, Taliyah, Ryze, Twisted Fate. Niche midlaners: Zilean, Kayle,

Falcon Of Death2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unreformed Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxEy5A7b,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-03T04:16:12.474+0000)

That's because her ult does 0 damage.

Name another midlaner who has a 0 damage ult.

Jayce Ryze TwistedFate Galio

Unreformed Shaco6 votes

I think she is very well rounded. Strong champ with very clear weaknesses.

However, her E duration should scale with distance.

Change it from 2 sec to 1 - 3.5.

Truly Prideful6 votes

After playing her a ton I've come up with a few changes I would make to her.

  • Leave her Q and R alone, they are fine as they are.
  • W needs a loot table tweak. Lock items like Gunblade behind a level barrier ( 7 or 9?). I've picked them up at level 3 several times and it's just brutal for the enemy laner. E could stand to have a few changes.
  • Traps duration on the ground should be cut in half, 4 seconds is entirely too long. If they want the duration to remain, the hitbox needs to shrink.
  • Refund on champion hit needs to go, it isn't really needed at all. We'll see what happens with the PBE change of the cooldown not starting until the target struck falls asleep, it may turn out to be a good change.
  • Fix the hitbox. ( They said they're doing this already so we'll see )

Overall I think hitting her damage is the wrong way to go about it. Hitting the rapid firing of her E is the correct way to go. Her Q itself isn't that hard to dodge, as the patch has gotten older people are sidestepping me quite a bit more. People are also coming up with some clever ways of denying angles before they fall asleep too. Just tune the E to be used more carefully ( And fix the square hitbox ) and she'll be alright.

KyojiTakajo1 votes

Just a slight correction, but I’m pretty sure her E gets the cooldown reduction upon an enemy falling asleep, not a champion hit. But I agree with most of these points. I’ve got played her a ton too even getting to level 7 mastery and I agree that her E cooldown is her biggest issue tbh.

Truly Prideful1 votes

Yeah it says that, but it feels a lot like the cooldown reduction is happening early. Once you have that E at rank 5 it feels like you're firing another one right after you wake someone up. Just hoping they don't kneecap her pointlessly, seems like they are going to take it slow though.

Unreformed Shaco6 votes

Her damage can easily one shot an adc from a huge distance, even if she is behind.

Wrong. She has to be within a certain distance of her paddle star's end. If Paddle Star is in range to hit you, it means you are in range to hit her.

This creates a frustrating champion to play against, because even though you shut her down, she still manages to one shot you or do a massive chunk of your health and slow/cc you.

Reminds me of 90% of ADCs.

undesirable team3 votes

you cant hit her if youre asleep if she q backwars ult flash and the star hits you whilst you being asleep that will one shot you :)

atleast with adcs you can put behind so theyre useless

Unreformed Shaco3 votes

[{quoted}](name=very toxic xd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxEy5A7b,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-12-03T10:04:27.185+0000)

if she q backwars ult flash and the star hits you whilst you being asleep that will one shot you :)

atleast with adcs you can put behind so theyre useless

Same with Zoe.. She is literally a one shot bot, if she cannot do her combo and kill, she loses.

Meanwhile Draven, gets a BF and is unkillable.

undesirable team3 votes

or you kill him once in lane and hes fucked over for the rest of the game?

JMoormann3 votes
  • Draven
  • Unkillable

Choose one.

Draven deals a shitton of damage, but he is definitely killable

Unreformed Shaco1 votes

{quoted}

  • Draven
  • Unkillable

Choose one.

Draven deals a shitton of damage, but he is definitely killable

item 3812 item 3072 item 3139

Alkis91 votes

[{quoted}](name=very toxic xd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxEy5A7b,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-12-03T10:04:27.185+0000)

if she q backwars ult flash and the star hits you whilst you being asleep that will one shot you :)

atleast with adcs you can put behind so theyre useless

they;re useless for 5-10 mins. Then they will proceed to run your team over because you underestimated them. You think you got them behind but they just farm and laugh at you thinking you've won the game.

SanKakU4 votes

I think he means this is a PSA: Bottom players, stop walking into her traps and throwing the game or something like that rather than OMG Riot balance your game kind of post.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

She literally does not get rewarded for it. It's the exact same concept as a Karma R+Q. Just don't step in it.

If she was rewarded for missing it, she'd gain more damage or duration for it hitting the ground first. But she doesn't.

undesirable team5 votes

yes she does LUL -if she misses she gets a HUGE ZONE FOR 4 FUCKING SECONDS -if she misses and the trap hits one thing she gets 30% off her e cd (which is already short)

Psyrix1 votes

it's an 8.4 cd at max rank with 40% cdr. a longer cd than syndra's E, a bit shorter (like 1 sec) than morgana's q and lux's q. It being triggered gives the 30% cdr which makes it a 5.8 sec cd. If anything, I'd decrease the amt of cdr if it hits a minion rather than a champ (eg. if it hits a champion, e gains 25-30% cdr. If it hits a minion 15-20% cdr)

wildfox991 votes

{quoted}

She literally does not get rewarded for it. It's the exact same concept as a Karma R+Q. Just don't step in it.

If she was rewarded for missing it, she'd gain more damage or duration for it hitting the ground first. But she doesn't.

you know what does "zoning" mean?

Modl Ryden l3 votes

They need to add more clarity to the bubble's AoE. The fading animation gives the impression it will no longer be there. But the trap still lingers if you walk into JUST as it's about to leave. It's like 2 or 4 frames where the template or visual of the bubble is completely gone but the AoE still remains.

Even2 votes

I agree, its very frustrating because often times dodging the ability ends up with you being trapped, or getting hit by it the instant it turns into a bubble.

RottedApples2 votes

i actually faced a zoe who used the bubble, it hit the ground, i stepped into it by accident right when it expired, and she was able to throw another at me while i was under the affects of the first one. I didn't even know that was possible until now and now that I know i'm more annoyed with this spell than ever. I still traded with her because i managed to get my full combo off but it was annoying.

Extreme case though given she needed to have max cdr for this, but still annoying. I also dislike it's a special case with black shield, can't prevent the sleep if black shield is applied after the bubble hits but before the sleep, also you can't cleanse the drowsy debuff. Pretty dumb since fizz's ult knockup can be prevented from a black shield even if the fish is already attached. Makes this spell inconsistent with other spells like it.

Violet Fields1 votes

You can say the same with Evelynn, why is she allowed to taunt you when she MISSES her skillshot.

Cowseed1 votes

The strength is going through terrain, not missing and getting a trap. When she misses all you have to do is not be closest to the center and it's gone. Minions are your friend. Just hide behind them.

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