Sion's Passive

MisterHealYoGirl·Dec 25, 2015·128 votes·7,068 views

Do I love Sion's passive? Yes, absolutely. Do I find it frustrating that, as the game progresses, it becomes worse? Yes. And not just in the sense of 'less useful'; Sion's passive is one of the only abilities in the entire game to get numerically WORSE as you level up. At level 1, Sion's passive lasts 6.61 seconds, left on his own. At level 18, Sion's passive will last for 3.75 seconds. (Any health he's built will modify this duration, but so will the fed Jinx focusing him back down.) I love everything about Sion's passive, but I wish that this lategame tank scaled better.

48 Comments

Teridax68Dec 26, 201529 votes

I feel this is the sort of thing that should scale with base health, rather than run on a separate formula. If Sion were to lose, say, 1.5% of his base health per second, increasing by about the same amount per second, his passive's duration would be, at worst, identical at all levels, and in all other cases would allow him to extend it with his bonus health from W and itemization. The current passive looks built to account for some degree of Soul Furnace farming, but that somewhat defeats the point of amassing bonus health with it.

HayRossDec 26, 201519 votes

Maybe we could have death surge remove all CC like Remove Scurvy? Would make it so that he wasn't so damn slow and stopped by the smallest amount of crowd control

It Hertz When IPDec 26, 20152 votes

As a casually occasional player of Sion I like this, but like a previous poster said, his % max HP damage during it can deal scary damage to a tank, and CC is the only way to stop him during his passive. One balance would be to make it cleanse CC, but get rid of the MS boost; same overall effect, but now Lux's spammable root, etc. will no longer completely negate his passive.

HayRossDec 26, 20151 votes

It MIGHT be an improvement, but he would still be painfully slow, and even with a item 3800 and a item 3022 would still fail to be all that sticky. Plus, Tanks should have enough crowd control to just hit him with anything and just walk away laughing

TarynDec 26, 201513 votes

Lux's spammable root

I feel like we have different definitions of the term "spammable".

I Miss CannonDec 26, 20151 votes

Or you're just a biased Lux player.

It Hertz When IPDec 26, 20151 votes

Possibly. I wasn't using it in the same sense as Karthus' Q, more in the sense of her likelihood to have it off CD when Sion's passive triggers. Max CDR she can use it every what, 6 seconds?

TarynDec 27, 20151 votes

'tis 7 seconds maxed CDR (including taking the extra +5% mastery to make it 45%)

Not exactly long, but when it's not off cooldown you feel it that's for sure.

Slamurai JackDec 26, 201510 votes

I hate his passive because as a tank, I have to fucking bail whenever it activates or he'll kill me during it since it's %max health damage on hit.

doombotMECHADec 26, 20152 votes

I love it for the same reason. related: why i main Karthus

charcharmunroDec 26, 20155 votes

I mean it is still physical damage so if you have any decent amount of armor you should be fine.

KnoyleDec 26, 20151 votes

Except plenty of champs don't even bother with armor because they are supposed to be focusing on damage. So unless you are naturally tanky this thing is only not a problem as Jinx or Zed , basically any champ with a good method of escape. If you don't have one, hope you have flash and a wall to use it through.

RalanrDec 26, 20152 votes

Or walk away. Unless he's built a black cleaver or Frozen Mallet, you can just walk away since outside of his death surge he's really slow.

charcharmunroDec 26, 20152 votes

Preeeetty much any CC or mobility is enough to get away, so... Basically only Mordekaiser can't do much about it without Rylai's.

Slamurai JackDec 26, 20152 votes

You see, you would think that, but I've had so many games where I'm playing Mundo or Sejuani or something and the Sion passive kills me all by itself. It's pretty jarring to play Mundo and have Sions passive chunk over half your health in 3 seconds.

charcharmunroDec 26, 20155 votes

Mundo has a spammy slow, Sejuani has a dash AND a slow, really easy to get away from Sion after that. Think of Sion like Karthus. Kill him in a teamfight, you GTFO but try to stay around. Kill him alone, just walk away.

Slamurai JackDec 26, 201511 votes

Of course you can get away from him as those champions. But this isn't a 1v1 game here. In a teamfight, you often can't just abandon your position just to try and avoid the sion passive since your teammates are counting on you to be right where you are. And that's where the power in Sion's passive lies: like Karthus, he forces the enemy team to move even after he's died with severe consequences if you do not do so. Yes, Sion's passive very often doesn't do much damage which leads people to complaining that it's worthless. But that's not the point. Merely the threat of his passives damage is enough to have a meaningful impact.

MisterHealYoGirlDec 26, 20151 votes

Presumably if it was made more reliable, it would lose some of its damage. What if he kept the lifesteal and attack speed and did a percentage of HIS current HP as bonus damage, instead of 10% of yours? Rewards him for building tanky, but also makes it less oppressive for those who've done the same.

chipndip1Dec 26, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pKxjErEq,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-26T01:33:34.834+0000)

I hate his passive because as a tank, I have to fucking bail whenever it activates or he'll kill me during it since it's %max health damage on hit.

Then it's working. The point of Sion's passive is to "Scatter the Weak", so to speak. Syndra [slayer-jinx-catface]

charcharmunroDec 26, 20158 votes

I've seen several suggestions for ways to improve his passive... One being that it works off a percentage off his base health instead of just a flat amount. Another being that he gets fully-healed/revived upon killing somebody with it. Or that Death Surge cleanses as well, because literally ANY CC means he can't do anything. Even Trundle's Q mini-slow.

CrettDec 25, 20156 votes

Agreed

theGreatZamboniDec 26, 20155 votes

The concept in its execution is a complete failure in my opinion. The idea is that even in death, his rage and power should be feared. The reality of his passive is it's just something to look at that makes respawning take longer. It chews through tanks, but most tanks have massive CC anyway. Combine that with surrounding teammates, getting any use out of your passive is often futile.

To me, I'd rather see a more complex take on the passive. Not in mechanics but in concept. The idea of being able to attack after death, just running around using basic attack takes no skill, there is no thoughtfulness. It should be a high moment for those playing Sion. A moment to redeem their death or extend their rampage. His passive becomes a joke if he is on the losing team, being 3 shotted by an ADC or Assassin then running around like a moron trying to make something happen. Sion's passive is effective if he has teammates around to slow enemies he is pursuing. Yet the current meta favoring early game champions with high AD burst, mobility and with most teams carrying 5 flashes - good luck.

The success of using your passive should not be automatic. Using Kog'Maw or Karthus, there is a skill required to get the most out of your passive. With Sion, there are too many variables that make his useless in most cases. Variables are not something Kog'Maw or Karthus deal with. They have a fixed amount of time with straight forward options. Those passives are high moments from defeat that when used correctly can drastically shift the momentum for their team.

Sion is a tank. He has high crowd control and his kit is built around initiations while maintaining his CC in a fight. The mechanics of his passive fail to extend and enhance the concept of Sion's intended design/fantasy. The concept itself is in line with that fantasy, but again the execution is flawed. The undead juggernaut, who even in death should be feared, isn't.

I think we have a case where numbers are not a fix. He needs to have gameplay/mechanical alterations to his passive. I'm sure we could all come up with ways to change it, but spit-balling isn't really constructive at this point. I doubt Riot would take any ideas to heart. There is too much feedback to wade through. To design your own solution would just be fuel for one's ego.

On a positive note, Sion's passive WAY better than Zyra's. That is one passive that just makes you feel worse about dying. It feels bad, does no damage, is too slow to use and fire. It just punctuates your failure.

YaskamasandwichDec 26, 20153 votes

As a major Sion rework fan, his passive needs to be nerfed early game and buffed late game. It can become too oppresive early game. To me it feels the same problem as Garen's pre-nerf villain passive. I've killed the Garen and get punished for it. In Sion's case when I'm playing him I either kill the person who killed me or kill quite a few minions to still be ahead of cs. I punish people in lane phase for killing me as Sion when at that moment they should be rewarded. When in late game they should be punished for killing me as the self-revival-threatening-tank at the wrong moment. Also Sion should be a late game champ not mid, which sadly right now he's a mid phase tank. Fixing his passive would help that.

PennsDec 25, 20152 votes

I mean it can still be used to zone, or not? And if, like you said, "the fed Jinx focuses him down", then, well, the fed Jinx isnt hitting anything else

l Main RenektonDec 26, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I mean it can still be used to zone, or not? And if, like you said, "the fed Jinx focuses him down", then, well, the fed Jinx isnt hitting anything else

Her Rockets + a possible item 3085

Toru ItaiDec 26, 20152 votes

QQ... i just want old Sion back.

kaltenashesDec 27, 20152 votes

when i die, i make sure its close to turrets, so i dont waste time trying to get someone whos kiting me.... sometimes i can get a kill, but if no one is dying, i go for turrets, i'm dead already

RalanrDec 27, 20152 votes

I sometimes go for minions if kills are too much hassle.

Smart minds.

KennyDec 26, 20151 votes

Meanwhile Zyra ;-;

MunchCrunchLunchDec 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Zyra ;-;

lol imo zyras even worse. i feel like zyras should be like. anivia. born from plants. again

Nin10do0014Dec 26, 20151 votes

Would a % Damage reduction that scales with his levels help? I'm not sure about numbers, but how about 5/15/25% could help him stay alive a bit longer in the late game.

RyzeReworkDec 26, 20151 votes

It used to be a flat amount and it was broken as fuck its allot better this way

H 3Dec 26, 20151 votes

His passive is so funny in Aram with frozen mallet lol.

AL000Dec 26, 20151 votes

i agreed... karthus's and kog's passive are much better than sion's passive... it needs to be reworking or something...

Only Play DariusDec 26, 20151 votes

It literally doesn't get any worse than Kog's passive

The ADC shouldn't be dying in the first place

ZerglingOneDec 26, 20151 votes

The main problem is the activation time. I'd much rather it be instant upon death and have a cooldown than how it currently is.

The Yetii RiderDec 26, 20151 votes

Meddler said that Sion's power budget is largely focused into his Q and ultimate, so they are okay with his passive being bad.

rtbf206105905Dec 26, 20151 votes

Maybe the health should decrease slower and Death Surge should give a bit less movement speed?

InivtesPreezeDec 26, 20151 votes

In no way should dying become beneficial, and grow moreso as the game progresses.

Both Karthus' and Sion's passive are trash.

CasterGilgameshDec 26, 20151 votes

sion and karthus themes are all about death so of course they should get benefits from death just because they get benefits from death doesn't mean the bad parts of death don't apply.First they still give gold for their kills plus they have to die some time meaning that the team won't have them for the next fight unless that was the fight they were in but now they can't help the team push.

ARequestOfDeathDec 26, 20151 votes

only sion's passive is trash karthus' passive pretty much gives him a Garen teed ult that wont be canceled like they did with king of the hill

kaltenashesDec 27, 20151 votes

they have no passive bonus, unlike every other champ, so yeah, dying should benefit a bit

ZhireDec 26, 20151 votes

Sion's passive along with other champion's passive like Karthus or Kog'Maw are very situational. Even Anivia's passive can feel useless at times but again, the passives are very situational. I don't think you can simply define the passive as "less useful" as when the circumstances are right, you can still do tons of damage with Sion's passive.

LANWhaleDec 27, 20151 votes

When Sion dies I feel like he should have a shield burst. Ya know when you reactivate W the shield burst, ya that. It wouldn't make Sion passive super strong but hey when he dies it feels like there should be an explosion.

Olath QuortekDec 28, 20151 votes

Shrug... I think he scales fine into late game... The way I see it the fact that you get to stand up after death and continue to be a presence at all is good... Besides, buffing his passive would prolly mean he would need some compensation nerf.