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Why Doesn't Veigar Build Lich Bane?

MisterHealYoGirl··13 votes·7,100 views

With the amount of AP that Veigar racks up with his Q, AP ratios are much more valuable to him than straight-up AP. For someone like Lux, ever though her passive incentivizes Lich Bane, I can see why; her spell range is long enough that coming for autos represents a significant additional risk. But Veigar doesn't have that excuse: his ult range is only a Teemo longer than his auto range, meaning that he's already hanging around at the proper distance. It somewhat lengthens his combo, but if he's combo-ing you, you're stunned anyway, and an increase from zero seconds to .2 seconds is largely academic.

Veigar's basic combo with Lich Bane deals 1201 (+310% AP) damage; with Luden's, it's 1230 (+270% AP). Accounting for the fact that Luden's gives 20 more AP, once Veigar has at least 208 AP (a.k.a. once minions spawn), Lich Bane outperforms Luden's Echo. And this is only a one-to-one comparison: Luden's recharges at about once per fight, while Veigar can fire off Lich Bane procs every time his Q is up.

I used Veigar as an example here, but the same principle is true for many different champions. Annie, Brand, Kennen, and so on. Is there some secret downside that I'm not seeing here?

34 Comments

Ratbert12 votes

Bad auto range.

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

It's only marginally shorter than your ult range, though. If you plan on using your ult, you could also be using an auto.

YumaS2Astral4 votes

{quoted}

It's only marginally shorter than your ult range, though. If you plan on using your ult, you could also be using an auto.

I think the actual reason why people don't buy Lich Bane on Veigar is due to his mediocre auto-attack animation. Due to that and the fact that Veigar does not have an auto-attack modifier (like Fizz, or Twisted Fate) most people would rather just buy raw AP. You usually don't have time to auto-attack during a fight or combo, while those champions have: those are the same reasons to why people don't buy Lich Bane on champions like Vladimir or Ryze.

Krys Star1 votes

Veigar's ult casts fairly quickly too, though. It doesn't have a long wind-up time like his auto attack does (when compared to his ult), and when you ult you wanna gtfo before anyone jumps on you. You don't want to stick around to aa. You're better off not getting in aa range long enough.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

If you can use your ult on them you already killed them though lol

Riohclem1 votes

I do build Lichbane on Veigar, every time. Here is my build for my fellow veigar main. Seraph's Embrace+ Rod of Ages+ Lichbane+ Voidstaff+DeathCap + Boots of Lucidity. My runes are hybrid pen marks + Health per level seals + CD per level glyphs + CD per level Quints.

Because Veigar and mana regen was buffed simutaneiously few patches I forgo the ability power on my rune page for a could reasons. I literally save my q for just dbl stacking and not harass ( You have been told not do this because you fall behind in lane. Well I'm used to it.)

With this build it's all scaling. But even when you hit 6 as long as you bought a needless large rod and have ignite you can get your first kill with a full combo. Let me go through the critical points of the build of why I build Lichbane on Veigar.

I use Lichbane because of the CDR and the scaling off passive. I also have stormraider's surge. I top my cdr to 40% (20% rune page. 10 from lich 10 from lucidity and 5 from cunning mastery) A full 45% cdr veigar can stack ability power like no tommorow. I get seraphs and roa because then Veigar because tanky and can throw out all his spells. Seraphs+Roa+Lich all synergize with the amount of mana. His passive also synergized with the more mana pool you have.

You can spam q+lich auto every 2 seconds to trigger storm raiders. With Lich Bane at late game I do not need my ultimate to kill. I can just q and w and auto to kill some one 100-0 every 3 seconds. Now do you understand?

TL;DR: Please no one read this or Veigar will be nerfed.

  1. I stack mana and cd so I can endlessly spam and not run out of mana. I let my Q give me all the rest of the necessary ability power and always get deathcap too.
  2. Seraphs+Embrace+Lich+death cap all synergize incredibly well. Even if I get engaged on I'm tanky enough from Roa and seraphs embrace to disengage and not die( I do not build Zhonyas).
  3. Lichbane +Stormraider's Surge= Q or W + lichbane auto will trigger stormraider's surge. You can effectively combo Q+auto and then W+auto back to back to keep SS going. Once you have SS triggers run up and E their team.
  4. Q stacking makes Lichbane stronger. If you find yourself not killing some one from a full combo early game as veigar than your doing it wrong and get the bane.

TL;DR of the TL;DR: Get Lich bane on veigar, your stupid not to.

GhastlyGhoulMan11 votes

Because then I'd have to sell one of my 6 Rabadons Deathcaps. T_T

lolipopevelynn7 votes

why would u spend time AAing someone when you have already killed them with Q+R?

ViashinoWizard2 votes

Luden's gives more movement speed and AP, has a better build path, hits multiple people, and activates automatically rather than requiring you to stop moving and autoattack. Lich Bane just gives you more single-target burst which Veigar doesn't need, while Luden's gives him better poke and aoe damage. This is true for most mages that don't get Lich Bane: it doesn't offer any real utility, so unless your kit has synergy with the spellblade proc (TwistedFate Fizz Ziggs Viktor) it ends up being a mediocre mix of Luden's and Deathcap.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

Comming in to auto on glass cannon mages in this meta is bad... like ruuullllll real bad. To bursty, too many mobile champs, even if you combo delete someone with it, there could always be another enemy champ just waiting for you to move far enough out that you are TOO far out.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

I think it's just because you don't have space for it.

My build is typically item 3174 item 3158 item 3089 item 3135 item 3285 and item 3001 /item 3157 .

I run 15% cdr in my runes/masteries, topping me up to 45% cdr with boots and Athenes (which, coupled with my passive ensures I basically cannot run out of mana).

Deathcap is for the raw AP boost, Void for the Pen and Ludens for the extra oomph and ms. Abyssal or Zhonyas is for if I need to fear AP more, or AD.

Getting Lich would make me waste cdr and force me to auto as part of my rotation, where I can usually just land a E-QW and remove someone from a fight at full build anyway.

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

If you're worried about the CDR overcap, why not get pen boots instead of Sorc shoes? We're established that LB outdamages Luden's in most or all situations; why not do

item 3174 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3100 and item 3001 /item 3157 ? With the proliferation of hybrid MR/AD and anti-burst items (Maw, Gage, Scimitar) making burst more difficult, extra damage never hurts.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Eh, it's not a bad idea, but I don't think it suits me.

I really like the MS Luden's provides over LB, and the fact that CDR boots are cheaper than the CDR from Sheen as well as giving me precious movespeed helps me reach the 45% spike sooner.

That and I can't imagine autoattacking between casts. I'm sure the Lichbane inclusion is viable, but it's not for me personally.

Solidair32 votes

Auto attack range is the main reason. The other reason is that mages spend most of their time in a fight repositioning to more effectively use their spells.

Stopping once to attack can mean the difference between life and death.

DeloricVI1 votes

I personally like to build it on him, but only late game. It helps to apply your burst to objectives like towers and inhibs. His AS is pretty pathetic, so you can't really naturally work the lich bane proc into your combo... at least, unless you're a long ways away kiting a melee champion. But, other than that issue, there's no real reason not to, per se.

Unfortunate Game1 votes

Its usually because there are better items but I agree with you. Logically it makes sense to get it on some champions. Although you never see it on lux, you may see it on viktor, tf, etc.

IMO on veigar I feel like itd be good, but early game I personally think you need to get your core item (item 3165 item 3174 ) and you need to get item 3089 3rd item, you also may possibly need an early item 3135 . and depending on your match up item 3001 item 3157 .

So when you look at it, theres no time to get a lichbane and play around, unless you choose to get it late game. IMO since veigar is so squishy, but his q stacking bonus ap, I think he can get away with buying item 3102 item 3065 item 3026 , etc.

I know ur question was general and veigar was the example, but all this aside in short~ There are usually better options of items youd want to buy/prioritize.

item 3285 item 3135 item 3157 , so theres no time to play around with a lichbane really.

Myrmiron1 votes

Because Lich Bane isn't slot efficient. AP itemization over all is almost the same every game. There are a handful of items that are super slot efficient, building anything else is luxury.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i think lichbane is actually a good item on lux for a couple simple reasons.

mana, cdr, and ap are all stats she wants. shes pretty slow, so the movement speed helps. the lichbane proc helps with poking at turrets and taking other objectives.

and most important. you cant always avoid that enemies get into close range. that extra damage in auto attack range can be very useful to nuke an assassin, or otherwise add some burst to your auto attacks on an enemy with your passve.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

if you Q->W->R someone. they are either dead. or too far away scared out of your aa range. not to mention hes a ranged mage that has horrible aa delay and animation. i'd rather get cdr but if u have enough cdr. idk. build a tank item. warmogs. since u dont need that much ap because of his stacking. and you only wanna pick veigar against an ap mid. so you should be able to one shot them mid game

Irelia Bot1 votes

I remember building it a few times when I was the only one doing any damage.

This was also back when it had a 100% scaling.

Teridax681 votes

The issue with most of those champions is that their spell rotation usually involves back-to-back casting from ranges extending beyond that of their autoattacks. Since Lich Bane requires a) time commitment to land an autoattack, b) potentially risky positioning relative to the enemy, and presumes that your prime target (usually a squishy) won't die by the end of your normal spell rotation, which is truer now than before but still not 100% the case, investing an item slot for it when you aren't naturally incentivized to autoattack during your spell rotation will not usually be worth it.

Of the champions you mentioned, I'm surprised that Kennen doesn't build LB more often, since he does happen to have an autoattack steroid, though that's likely because his playstyle in teamfights tends to boil down to hard initiating with E + R (which disables his ability to autoattack) + W + Zhonya's, and cleaning up with Q and W thereafter. Annie might be an interesting choice, since she has an above-average AA range even after her nerfs, but she's also one of the burstiest mages around, and has pretty spammy basic abilities.

Mhihnj1 votes

i don't think he needs it. His scaling is so good, he can pop almost any squishy with his ult alone and his ult is just back up

morris11 votes

I typically take it if I can't land a Q or W to save my life (see: mobility creep) since using R and maybe E then running from teamfights is a pretty useless contribution.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Lichbane overall is an underated item, but the mainreason, atleast for me, is gamelength. There are just more important items to be built, so lichbane usually would be my 5th or 6th pick up, just that 90% of my games end befor i even finish the 4th item. Another reason like often stated is that AAs put you at alot risk, which is the main reason why nearly only champs that use AAs anyway in their combo use it. I think giving it 20%as, or a unique passive that speeds up your aa animation by 25% would help alot for that. even if you have spells on your aa range, thx to the usually slow attacks of mages, you have to stick in the dangerzone a fair bit longer if you use lichbane which makes you far more vulnerable to counter attacks. I also think it should get the 10%ms from ludens and ludens should only get 7%. Ludens overall is just much saver as it gives more ms and can be applied from a save distance, and it helps with waveclear.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

I wouldn't give it the AS bonus, as most of it's benefit comes from mages with low-CD abilities that can weave AA's in there, meaning your AS doesn't have to be that great to still get the procs off. The animation speed change, though.... that could be interesting.

Trylobyte1 votes

It comes down mainly to gameplay patterns.

  1. Veigar has a lot of stuff he wants to get first.
  2. Sheen is useless to him until it builds into Lich Bane.
  3. Veigar has a slow autoattack animation.
  4. The cooldown on Veigar's Q is very short late-game. In the time it takes him to stop moving and make an autoattack then resume chasing he can probably just throw another Q without ever having to stop chasing.
Catastrop1 votes

Because no one is brave enough to use Professor Milk's Veigar build.

DrCyanide1 votes

I think it's a matter of if you're ahead you don't need it (you'll delete people before the auto makes it) and if you're behind it won't save you.

Add to that you're not really waiting the 1.5 seconds between spells to get the most out of Lich Bane with Veigar.

I'm a fan of building whatever you want on Veigar (defense, movement speed, etc.) and farming with Q to get the difference. If you want a Lich Bane so you can push towers faster, that makes sense to me. If you want it to kill people, not so much.

Rühatka1 votes

You can definetly buy it after your core(CDR item->Void->Cap->Zhonya's-that only leaves you build 1 situational item) if opponent team is full of tanks.

1000angrybees1 votes

I build it on him. He's gonna be in close range anyway, it's not like it matters honestly. who doesn't want a nuke on their AA? Also, CDR and Mana.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

I build it in ARAM if I'm on a team that doesn't have a lot of tower-killing power. That's all I'd really get it on Veiger for TBH, objective control.

ltmetal1 votes

The downside is that if you are a combo mage, there are already numerous items that are more important to you with your skillset. Additionally, adding yet another offensive item prevents you from getting defensive items that you desperately need. The other consideration that isn't talked about is Luden's procs affect 4 targets in an AoE, meaning that just because Lich Bane procs every 1.5 seconds doesn't mean you can reliable hit more often with it.

TheOvermind1 votes

LOL lich Bane Last item on Veigar since season 4 bro

TotalJerk1 votes

Straight AP is still strong in him. A full rotation is 260% AP. The other problem is that having to weave autos decreases his effective range and slows down his burst rotation.

Honestly, though given how ungodly expensive a lot of AP items have gotten, I'm surpised more AP champions haven't resorted to buying Lich bane even with poor synergy because it's one of the few items with a decent build path left.

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