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Maw of Mathmortius

MisterHealYoGirl··128 votes·5,589 views

Let's say that, by some miracle, a Veigar catches a Kalista in his stun. What would it take for that to kill her? Kalista has 1929 base health at level 18. If she's built Sterak's Gage, her actual health pool goes up to 2329. Maw of Malmortius' shield contributes another 350 (assuming that she has no other MR items) and Sterak's Gage contributes another 699. Once the dust settles, Kalista has 3378 HP of health and shields. She has 85 MR (again, assuming she has no other MR items, runes, or masteries); if Veigar has Sorcerer's Shoes, a Liandry's Torment, an Abyssal Scepter, and a Void Staff, this gets reduced to 5. Once this factors in, Kalista has 3546 effective health against magic damage. Veigar's full combo deals 1030 (+260% AP) magic damage: in order for this to be lethal to Kalista, he needs (2516/2.6): 967 AP.

If Veigar has a Rabadon's, a Zhonya's, and a blue Elixir, plus the four items we assumed he had above, his build gives him 675 ability power once you factor in the Deathcap. This means that he needs to farm the remaining 292, although the Deathcap means that he only actually needs to get 217 AP from the ability itself.

Think about this for a second. A six-item Veigar with an Elixir and every magic pen item in League can't reliably kill a two-item Kalista unless he's also farmed more than two hundred ability power. Is this not problematic to anyone else?

235 Comments

masterdragon48157 votes

Stereks needs to be melee only; it has no business being used on the squishy champions that are suppose to rely on positioning to survive. They do that, they fix 90% of the problems.

Critmaster Garen16 votes

{quoted}

Stereks needs to be melee only; it has no business being used on the squishy champions that are suppose to rely on positioning to survive. They do that, they fix 90% of the problems.

put a health threshold like warmorgs heart on it, and they can actually revert the nerf and give it its 100 health back. it would make it almost impossible to use properly on marksmen and assassins.

Spoofghoul2 votes

unless you also get item 3022

skyknyt4 votes

yes but that would delay the power of sterak's by 3000 gold

mike in the box2 votes

if this change requires people to build tanky items to take advantage of Stereks...... mission accomplished.

Wimbledofy3 votes

or they could make it so sterak's is only a shield against physical damage unless you have a certain amount of hp. This will make it so adc's don't survive so much burst from ap champs. Because the main problem is the combination of both maw and sterak's. It makes it so mages' burst is pretty weak. Ad champions normally have some dps anyways and they aren't getting countered as hard by the itemization of adc's as ap champs are.

Shonjl9 votes

Nah, it should shield against all damage, but you need x health. Make it 3k like Warmogs and it not only stops marksmen and assassins from using it, but basically forces you to get Warmogs with it, making it so you have to put 2 items into making it work.

Photos of Ghosts3 votes

Or 2700 rather than 3k, so as not to limit it to 4th item for bruisers too.

mike in the box3 votes

or just make the shield be 40% - 50% bonus hp instead of 30% max hp.

AsphodelNext16 votes

If you factor in runes and masteries, you get a lower result for the AP, since both Veigar and Kalista are likely taking offensive runes and masteries.

Runes: Kalista gets 5 MR post MPen and Veigar gets 15 AP. So she wins out by a bit there(about 100 effective health->you need 35 more AP).

However, masteries are where Veigar makes up the difference. -Thunderlord's is 180+10% AP damage on the burst -Precision is another 8.4 flat MPen. -Executioner is 5% more damage on every bit below 40%(which includes the Maw shield), and Sorcery is 2% increased ability damage; these are extremely effective since you're doing 100-0 burst damage where even a 2% multiplier is like 50-70 damage.

Was going to include Kalista's masteries, but what Kalista takes Resolve tree defensive masteries over Cunning's Executioner and Dangerous Game? So I didn't. Runic Armor's only like another 80 shield anyway.

So if you throw those factors in, you get that you only need ~2100/2.7=780 AP, where you would only need to get like 105 AP from farming, a much more attainable goal. Number is extremely rough, so you might need a bit more(though probably <200), but the important thing is Thunderlord's does a boatload of damage, and percent multipliers and extra MPen scale with the amount of damage that you do, too much to ignore them when calculating 100-0 burst damage.

Deadly Mittens2 votes

Thank you for adding the additional details, just what I wanted to see :D

MisterHealYoGirl4 votes

A full Kalista-killer build would also replace the Zhonyas with a Luden's, for what it's worth. I tried to keep it to a real-game situation, though. I didn't do runes and masteries because as a Bronze 6 lifer who avoids playing ADC like the plague, I didn't know which tree ADCs go into.

AsphodelNext5 votes

ADC's typically go 18/12/0 with full up left side in Ferocity except for Feast and capstone Fervor, and minion damage, biscuits, Executioner, and Dangerous Game in Cunning.

My original post was actually going to replace the Zhonya's with the Luden's, but then I figured you sometimes just have to build the Zhonya's in certain matchups so I didn't. MR pen stacking build is a bit overkill though, most people go Luden's over Abyssal or Liandry's so they can 100-0 squishies BEFORE they pick up the Maw or Sterak's, since very few games actually go to 6 item builds these days.

Also, food for thought: if an ADC can't avoid getting one shot by building the items specifically tailored to counter being one shot i.e. short duration shields that only trigger on taking loads of damage, how good are those items really? Like, if Veigar will one shot me whether I build Maw or IE, I'd rather take IE, or maybe something like Mercurial to get out of the stun so I don't take the damage.

If I'm sacrificing damage potential for survivability against a specific type of attack(magic damage 100-0 burst), I expect to actually survive, especially so if I'm "giving up" 2 item slots doing so. (giving up in the sense I could have built a better damage item instead)

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

Not a very realistic scenario at all, especially thatt build and ap total for a level 18 six item viegar.

Also I don't get the point of your thread, you say Veigar can't reliably kill a kalista who has two items. No shit, he is a burst mage, and the item is specifically made to counter burst. I would hope he isn't reliably killing anyone after failing his burst cause then he is the balance problem. Also what you are describing at least for MAW which is in your title, isn't anything new. Hexdrinker has always cockblocked veigar.

Just seems like up vote farming honestly.

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

Well aren't we cynical. Anyway, my problem with the items isn't necessarily that they counter burst (although the degree to which they do so is a little comical; the gold lead that this Veigar has is equivalent to a 400 CS lead, or him being 218-0 over her). The problem is that they near gold-efficiency solely in terms of their offensive stats; if Gage and Maw offered no health, shields, or MR, they'd still be about 85% gold efficient on Kalista (it varies slightly depending on the champion's base AD) once all the little bonuses proc. Building anti-burst (your main counter as an ADC) should mean sacrificing a significant portion of your damage potential, and that's not what Maw and Gage are doing right now.

Goosetard11 votes

I was going to upvote just because of the title.

Turns out it was also a great post.

Niaphim9 votes

Now add item 3139. The effective health ramps up to ~5k (not sure about exact numbers), so any AD champion becomes virtually unkillable by AP since most of AD champs have some way to sustain and heal back, at least that lifesteal from scimitar.

BadmoonBC8 votes

Man can we like seriously sticky this post

I am so upset with this season because I'm an ap mid main (Leblanc and Diana) and steraks and maw completely nullify my job as an assassin. It's fucking bullshit.

XPL Turdong3 votes

that's the whole point of building defensive, are you asking for ad champions to not be able to counter build just so you can get your pretty little 1 shots?

LankPants21 votes

Building item 3156 , item 3053 and item 3139 isn't building defensive, those items combined give around 160 AD, 10% Life Steal, and 10 Armour pen as well as their defensive stats.

These aren't defensive items, they're broken hybrid defence/offence monstrosities.

Photos of Ghosts3 votes

That's the issue, not the defenses in themselves

BadmoonBC1 votes

[{quoted}](name=cash in or tilt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jNEQX3qr,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-03-23T01:01:52.251+0000)

that's the whole point of building defensive, are you asking for ad champions to not be able to counter build just so you can get your pretty little 1 shots?

Ok if that's the case then give AP champs TWO items that pop shields so we can become tank like while outputting insane damage. Oh wait your going to say "lol zhonyas gg" Bullshit. Zhonyas not only is ridiculously over priced, but all it does is give us a 2 second delay on our death. Ads with streaks and maw can basically freaking pop two shields and life steal their way back up to full. You can't argue the facts, both items for an ad that actually ALSO give great stats actives/passages and they are somewhat cheap. is the entire reason we are having issues with it. Give zhonyas a mini zhonyas with armguard since maw gets hexdrinker, then maybe we have some type of argument here but even then it's shit

XPL Turdong3 votes

I understand that ap defensive itemization is slightly lacking, but you complain about items stopping your job which is what they are meant to do, i do believe ap needs more defensive options to compete with ad but lowering them both to sub par isnt the answer

Astôlfo2 votes

Uh, they don't just "stop" the job, they delete it out of existence by rendering it completely impossible to ever happen again. And it doesn't have to be subpar. It just has to be not bullshit.

SoMNia8 votes

"Can't delete in one combo" is not the same as "can't reliably kill". Someone with two anti-burst items SHOULD NOT simply be deleted, anyway.

Nuparu4 votes

someone with two anti-burst items shouldn't also deal absurd damage per second as well

look at how that's working out this season

remember when adcs built GA and Banshees if they needed survivability against mages and assassins?

SoMNia6 votes

They don't, unless you go ham on them when both Maw and Sterak's passives have gone off. People are seriously trying to just brute force their way through Maw shield, Gage shield, the damage increase, the attack speed increase, and the life steal. Maybe don't do that.

Nuparu2 votes

{quoted}

They don't, unless you go ham on them when both Maw and Sterak's passives have gone off. People are seriously trying to just brute force their way through Maw shield, Gage shield, the damage increase, the attack speed increase, and the life steal. Maybe don't do that.

ok so if they live anyways your team still loses regardless cause you spent a full burst combo into a shielding, survivable hard carry who just lifesteals all the damage back.

Astôlfo1 votes

Maybe they shouldn't give such a bullshit shield in the first place. Or, or! Maybe, squishies should never have been able to purchase those items in the first place, because it completely nullifies their only weakness. ;)

SoMNia2 votes

They're both situational and provide windows of power. Understand windows of power, and don't engage in the middle of them. That's how this game works. Expecting to be able to ignore that because you've got it into your head that people shouldn't be able to build to cover their weaknesses at all is only going to cause you grief.

If an ADC has a Gage, be aware that their damage is a lot lower than it would be if they weren't building bruiser items designed to work with other defensive items, in part because marksman base AD is pretty mediocre. This is true even while the passive is in effect, and it is especially true if you pop the passive and wait a few seconds for it to wear off. Shields are temporary. Don't go in hard on them unless you know you have the damage to get through them and secure the kill. Don't assume there's always a stark difference between squishy and not (there are different degrees), don't assume you always know who is which based solely on their class, and don't believe you're owed a kill just because you can see a "squishy" on your screen.

Wenderwall6 votes

I don't get how her max health increased to 3378. item 3156 - Passive will trigger if health falls below 30%., +25% AS, +10% lifesteal, so with health of 2329. It has to go to 698 for it be active. item 3053 - On losing 1800 gains AD + 698 Damage shield. so with health of 2329, she has to be at 529 for sterak fury to be active.

i.e. (assume) 629hp she gains 698 shield + 350 MR, even if I cound shield and MR as hp it is not 3378Hp, it is 1677. Being too generous. If Veigar played his combos right, she'll be dead even with LifeSteal+Fury activated.

kalista's first 2 items are not item 3156 , item 3053. They are her last 2 items. Her preferred items - item 3153 item 3006 item 3031 item 3085 .

So for her to kill a squishy champ, she needs 2-3 seconds.

masterdragon48126 votes

I think OP did his math right; it isn't 3378 health up front; but veigar has to burst through an effective 3378 health. It doesn't really matter that Kalista's health needs to be low for these items to activate; the fact is that they will activate and therefore needs to be included in the total health Veigar is trying to burst through.

The OP explained the total burst damage Veigar has; even if he does "play his combo right" he still needs an additional 292 ability power.

Where did the OP go wrong?

I'd also like to point out that a mage that catches an adc should be able to burst them down in one rotation. The fact that he can't is actually a sign of an issue to me. But, despite the title of this thread, I don't think the problem is with Maw, it is with Stereks being allowed to be picked up on ranged champions.

Wenderwall1 votes

Yeah i think the same, Steraks is too good of an item for ADCs to abuse. Maw is more of a defensive stats + shield.

masterdragon4816 votes

Maw is fair and sorta (more or less) designed to do exactly what it does. Stereks is intended for bruisers and isn't suppose to make the obscene amount of life steal adc's have access to keep them alive when they shouldn't.

I'm an adc fan, I defended them in preseason when the itemization changes happened, and I continue to defend their right to decimate and destroy and entire team; and come out full health and mana after. But I supported this view point with the stance that adc's are only allowed to have this kind of damage output because of just how weak they are. An assassin or a mage is suppose to be able to deal with an adc all things equal (all sorts of what ifs we could get into here, lets not go there). Stereks is screwing up that thinking; its acting like a GA without the delay.

Voluug137 votes

Maw is too cost efficient. That is a proven fact, and for how restrictive is against AP champions, its not healthy. Its 100% cost effective without the shield or lifeline, and its like 150% (idr the exact number) when lifeline triggers.

Honestly the problem of Maw is that its too good of an item to rush while being too good against AP champions.

It doesnt help the shield is, in an AP mid vs AD mid, way superior to Zhonia's active, due to how it allows actions, while Statis wont save you 1v1 unless you are under your turret. Oh, and Zhonia's itself isnt good on all champions while being extremely hard to rush and cost inefficient.

Aazzlano2 votes

168% efficient when it procs

Zhonya's is 87% efficient

Lovelle1 votes

Zhonya's is good against everyone, not just AD champions. At least a Sterak's user can still be CC'd.

Voluug132 votes

Zhonia wont save you 1v1.

I mean, yeah, its ''good'' in teamfights or under turret.

But generally those you want to build Zhonia's against are AD, which have strong sustained damage anyways.

So, basically, Zhonia's is good when you are not alone, but otherwise they will simply wait until you come out of Stasis to kill you, or will simply run away while you probably have to go back, while they continue farming.

Yes, Maw is AP specific, but in a lane where 85% of its frequent laners are magic damage based, that is hardly a problem. That, on top of the fact those that build Maw are already pretty much already counters of many mages.

Maw also allows you to take actions while their spells are on cd. Zhonia is, 1v1, simply posponing your death by 2s.

MisterHealYoGirl30 votes

Sorry if that was unclear. 3378 isn't Kalista's max health, it's the amount of damage she can take before she dies. Kalista has 1929 HP base, and she gets 400 HP from Sterak's. Before shields, we're at 2329. Once she takes 1800 damage, Sterak's Gage activates, giving her a shield for 30% of her max HP: 699. When she hits 30% HP, Maw activates, giving her a magic shield for 350. For Veigar's full combo to kill her, it has to go through her health (2329), plus the Gage shield (699) plus the Maw shield (350), for a total of 3378.

Wenderwall2 votes

It makes sense now, What I found by tagging with viegar ( as ADC or jg) is that he can get most champs health down and then team has to do the rest. He isn't good at taking out a champ in one full burst unless he casts his prison after their lifelife/fury is activated and at this point it's a good penta kill. I have seen him do it once.

Trídent25 votes

He isn't good at taking out a champ in one full burst unless he casts his prison after their lifelife/fury is activated and at this point it's a good penta kill.

Wut.

His identity is supposed to be one-shotting carries

Wenderwall2 votes

{quoted}

Wut.

His identity is supposed to be one-shotting carries

Donno what he was supposed to be. I'm sharing what I saw.

Mama Soraka7 votes

Veigar is the grand daddy of burst. If the biggest, most blastin-est rootin-est tootin-est burst mage can't erase an ADC with so few items there is a problem, is what this thread is gettin at.

Spicy Rice1 votes

tldr 3378 is effective hp

MisterHealYoGirl10 votes

No, her effective HP factors in her MR and her opponent's MP. It's 3546 in this case, and 6080 against someone with no magic pen.

doombotMECHA11 votes

6080 JESUS F*CK

MEMEME67013 votes

Getting numbers as high as 10000 effective hp vs a 0 penetration enemy isn't actually very hard. Especially with armor, as you get more armor/level than mr (if you even get mr/level).

Vekkna6 votes

Let's see if Katarina can burst down this Kalista.

item 3089 item 3001 item 3285 item 3135 item 3020 item 3157 =

648 AP 35% pen, 35 flat pen

QEWR (full channel) is 1325 base damage with a 3.65 AP ratio. 1325 + 3.65(648) = 3690

Kalista (or Quinn or Graves or Gangplank, or whomever) has 3378 and 85 MR, reduced to 55 by Void Staff, further reduced to 20 after flat pen. With 20 MR, that leaves the AD with 4,054 EHP.

So sorry, Katarina! You're full build and got a full combo off on an idiot who stood in your ulti for fucking 2.5 seconds, but NO KILL FOR YOU, KATARINA!

Robbit Mang3 votes

It's veigar and she's an AD champion. Obviously a champion along the lines of veigar who's supposed to be good at bursting AP carries due to his enemy ap to damage scaling will struggle vs ad champions. Honestly as a veigar player I can say 1200 ap on veigar isn't even difficult to get. If you're actually using your brain and csing properly in a long game you can get 1500-1600 AP

Curling Veigar6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Robbit Mang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jNEQX3qr,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2016-03-23T07:30:59.885+0000)

It's veigar and she's an AD champion. Obviously a champion along the lines of veigar who's supposed to be good at bursting AP carries due to his enemy ap to damage scaling will struggle vs ad champions. Honestly as a veigar player I can say 1200 ap on veigar isn't even difficult to get. If you're actually using your brain and csing properly in a long game you can get 1500-1600 AP

I've had 1500 AP before and a graves survived my full combo.

This is why I stopped running thunderlords; it doesn't give Veigar enough penetration. I just go full offensive and take Deathfire touch. You get more Magic pen and bounty hunter increases your overall damage rather than just giving you a thunderbolt every now and then.

I also get Archangles now. By ~33 minutes, if I'm at least even with the enemy mid, I'd have about ~1100 AP with an item to go still. With all of the penetration Veigar has from the offensive tree, (mostly the one mastery that gives 7% pen) you can EASILY burst through 3000 points of damage.

Even if Kalista has a Mercurial Scimitar, late game with this build I can easily reach 1400 AP. There's absolutely no way she's surviving it even with an aegis passive near her. 1400 AP plus the obscene magic pen, I feel like it'd be more than enough damage.

Though, I've been on a hiatus in ranked recently and league in general. We assumed Veigar caught a KALISTA and under any normal circumstance in diamond elo there's absolutely no way that will happen lol.

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