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Teams + Kayle isn't a hypercarry anymore (buffsies as a side)

CreationFlaw··6 votes·2,012 views

So I just got out of a horrendous game. I lock in kayle after not playing her for a while, but she used to be my favorite go to champion. Anyway, I lock in and we get into the game, no issues, I score first blood on Rengar and then 2nd right after he comes into lane. So I'm snowballing, and then I look up, and in the gap there's been three deaths on my team. Okay, no worries, just a bad start, right? I continue pushing and destroying Rengar (7/1/0) and I look at the score to see that we're 8/19, and I'm like what? Little did I realize Yasuo was 0/9/1 and Annie was 1/7/1 and ashe has 3 deaths. I'm confused, but I just keep pushing and eventually got all three towers and then just grouped midlane to help my team and roam. Ended the game well, but Kayle's damage just isn't what she used to be after all the changes, she's actually subpar in my opinion, why do you think her playrate is 2% after all. Anyway, game ends, rengar goes 19/8/13 getting fed off my team, everybody on their team is fed, Annie and Yasuo have FORTY deaths combined. Bad day for me, so question of the day, have you guys had any horrid games like this? (Yasuo was a toxic piece of trash)

And the second part of this thread is to wonder what your opinions of Kayle's position in League at the moment? Is she too weak for the game right now, in a good spot, or possibly OP? I honestly think her damage has gone super subpar because of 1) how close she has to get in this meta, and 2) she's squishier then a lot of champions.

I'd ask for her old passive back, but then she might be a lil' tad OP.

46 Comments

FalconPawwwwnch4 votes

Make Kayle's Q a skillshot then she can get buffs

She doesn't deserve anything right now with how oppressive she is when she's good

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted} when she's good

Well yeah, most champions are when the player behind them is really good. But a bad Leblanc/Nidalee/Jayce/Tryndamere/Irelia/Jinx/Caitlyn/Katarina/ZED/etc are all oppressive and they don't need somebody good behind them to be like that :/. Kayle has short range on top of very iffy early game damage and stats overall, not to mention she's squishier then most and her heal is god awful expensive with only a small heal at lower levels. The only item that really super synergies with her now is Nashor's tooth. Guisinoo Isn't viable anymore, because she won't stay in long enough to proc more then four stacks.

Kilane2 votes

Funny, the only anti assassin get called for being oppressive.

Leblanc Katarina

ProfDrDeath1 votes

The oppressive thing about Kayle when she was good was not her anti-assassin capability.

Rather, it was the metric ton of unavoidable burst and sustained damage she got between her point&click Q (1.0 AP ratio, anyone?) and her E (had 0.4 AP back then on the on-hit damage), especially when she had Lich Bane too.

Old level 11 Kayle with just Nashor's and a big-ticket AP item could burst you for 260+120+45+240+2.8 AP in 1 Q and three autos (~2 seconds)

Bodkins Odds1 votes

This would be awesome. If they made her Q a skill shot then they could give her back some AP ratio on her E. :D

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

You made Ludens and Hurricane... why? Luchbane and Abyssal are better vs the enemy team - they have 3 AP casters and are 5/5 glasscannons. The problem is not in Kayle. You also have 1 assist only = great teamwork.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

You made Ludens and Hurricane... why? Luchbane and Abyssal are better vs the enemy team - they have 3 AP casters and are 5/5 glasscannons. The problem is not in Kayle. You also have 1 assist only = great teamwork.

Aye, Lichbane would've been nice. Except I need to keep the waves away from our base like I said previously. So I chose Hurricane for the two second waveclear. Abyssal would've been a good pick, had I not needed the health because of Assassin Rengar, Late game Ashe, and the cc combined with long range. Overall, Banshee's veil was indeed a better pick over Abyssal. So overall, no, Hurricane might not have been better for the fights, but it kept them off our base for ten minutes. Abyssal would've been wasted because I'd still have <2000 hp.

TotalJerk1 votes

Kayle is THE Runaan's champion. Lichbane doesn't give her the deeps.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Ludens feels weird, I haven't tried it personally, but I doubt it's worth taking over a Zhonya's or Lichbane (or Void but the other team is 100% squish).

Hurricane is pretty much part of Kayle's core ever since someone discovered how strong it was with her E.

Bodkins Odds1 votes

Luden's procs on her E splash damage. It feels amazing on her.

I like to suck D1 votes

I agree, Kayle's pretty weak right now. It's pretty sad how little play she gets with what wonderful things she brings to the table with that passive and ult.

CreationFlaw1 votes

[{quoted}](name=BKS Channi D,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p1ym1hpQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-31T05:19:29.261+0000)

I agree, Kayle's pretty weak right now. It's pretty sad how little play she gets with what wonderful things she brings to the table with that passive and ult.

Well, she not only lost her passive. She lost so many amazing items on her, as well as with the other hybrid champions. But now there's just too many champions and items that screw her over so well, that you just can't do much about. There's no reason to pick kayle over any other champion EXCEPT for her ultimate. And possibly her heal, but it's negligible considering gapclosers are all the rage.

Saruyan1 votes

I still dont understand why people bothered with hurricane on her.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

I still dont understand why people bothered with hurricane on her.

I bought it for farming and because I needed the aoe presence because my team wasn't doing enough damage to other champions. Not to mention 70% as, as I said, all her core AS items were removed from the game.

Saruyan1 votes

what core aspd items? ionic spark? malady?

go for a heavy ap damage build so you can take full advantage of her good ap ratio heal and slow.

max out cdr and get lichbane.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

what core aspd items? ionic spark? malady?

go for a heavy ap damage build so you can take full advantage of her good ap ratio heal and slow.

max out cdr and get lichbane.

I'd usually do that, but then I'd be blown up instantly. It's assassin Rengar man, as well as Leblanc, Lux, and Nidalee, with a side of 600 range late game ashe.

Kitae's Bloodrazor, Madred's Bloodrazor, Ionic, Malady, etc. Hybrid kayle used to be so viable it actually was top tier. Now it's rarely built because a) way too expensive and b) Just doesn't have the % anymore.

Reason why these' items can't come back in is because ADC's would become even more powerful.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

I'd usually do that, but then I'd be blown up instantly. It's assassin Rengar man, as well as Leblanc, Lux, and Nidalee, with a side of 600 range late game ashe.

Kitae's Bloodrazor, Madred's Bloodrazor, Ionic, Malady, etc. Hybrid kayle used to be so viable it actually was top tier. Now it's rarely built because a) way too expensive and b) Just doesn't have the % anymore.

Reason why these' items can't come back in is because ADC's would become even more powerful.

Man I have 89.5 % winrate with Kayle in ranked. My advice is : Never build Ludens and if you chose Nashors, don't take Runaan.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

Man I have 89.5 % winrate with Kayle in ranked. My advice is : Never build Ludens and if you chose Nashors, don't take Runaan.

From what I looked up, you're not playing hypercarry Kayle though, nor even damagey kayle, or am I wrong? You're playing Jungle/support, else you have god awful cs for a plat and really don't have a lot of kills for a carry, although that's not defining. This thread is about her play as a carry, and what she used to be vs what she is now. :o But I can agree with Nashor's only, but as I said, waveclear is why I bought it. Luden's was for the escape and additional ms and farm

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

From what I looked up, you're not playing hypercarry Kayle though, nor even damagey kayle, or am I wrong? You're playing Jungle/support, else you have god awful cs for a plat and really don't have a lot of kills for a carry, although that's not defining. This thread is about her play as a carry, and what she used to be vs what she is now. :o But I can agree with Nashor's only, but as I said, waveclear is why I bought it. Luden's was for the escape and additional ms and farm

I play her as support (in ranked - played her like 1 time top and 1 time jungle), because I can play her in any role and still carry my whole team with utility... You maybe want to play her DPS (carry?) - the only viable build for this now is AD or Devourer.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

I play her as support (in ranked - played her like 1 time top and 1 time jungle), because I can play her in any role and still carry my whole team with utility... You maybe want to play her DPS (carry?) - the only viable build for this now is AD or Devourer.

Aye, and then you lose your decent heal and the Q damage in compensation cause the AD scaling really isn't that big. I mean, you can be a monster, but it takes forever to ramp up, and it just isn't worth it a lot of the time. And I knew you didn't play DPS kayle, heh. Oh well, whattya do. I don't want utility kayle, I want damage kayle.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

If you want damage, I'd just build sheer AP. Deathcap, Sorc Shoes, Zhonya's, Lichbane, Void Staff, Nashors gives you stupid burst . Kayle already has obscene waveclear with E. If you're talking DPS over burst then I dunno. I'd like to try a hybrid one day with Gunblade, Guinsoo's, Nashors, maybe BoRK.

Saruyan2 votes

your current build would make you get blown up just as hard, if not harder cause you have to si there trying to outtrade rengar with aspd.

if you wanted madreds, get bork. granted its physical damage and not magical so your magic pen does nothing, but eh.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

your current build would make you get blown up just as hard, if not harder cause you have to si there trying to outtrade rengar with aspd.

if you wanted madreds, get bork. granted its physical damage and not magical so your magic pen does nothing, but eh.

I suppose so, but yeah, you know my pain in a way. I suppose you're right, but my build was based off how I thought the game would progress.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

People build hurricane because it applies her passive to 3 people on the enemy team shredding 15% of their mr and armor. Which would work if the op's team wasn't ludicrously far behind.

Vlad is PMSing1 votes

I've tried her a few times and I don't see why I should play her.... I mean, it's cool but she's outstatted and less useful then say a Nidalee or any other hybrid champion. She doesn't do much either, you can wittle away, but you have to sacrifice damage to get attack speed to get more damage. it's a lose lose because without attack speed she doesn't do enough damage, but with the attack speed she doesn't have enough stats to benefit enough from it. It's sad and I realize why i never see her played.

#BuffTheKayleAndThenEatKale

Myrddin1 votes

I dont like her at the moment, which makes me sad. She is my favourite champion in the game to play, but i can't find a reason to play her. Everything Kayle does someone else does better. You can go 7-1 in lane and still lose to the 1-7 player straight up because of how they gutted her.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

I dont like her at the moment, which makes me sad. She is my favourite champion in the game to play, but i can't find a reason to play her. Everything Kayle does someone else does better. You can go 7-1 in lane and still lose to the 1-7 player straight up because of how they gutted her.

Eh, Aatrox is the definition of going 7/1 in lane then getting screwed 5 minutes later by the same person.

But yeah, she's outperformed, the only thing she has to bring that others can't is her ultimate, which is completely unique in itself. But yeah, Kayle just, doesn't perform amazingly, especially after they bopped her more with her ult cooldown nerf. It was needed though, I suppose.

Myrddin1 votes

{quoted}

Eh, Aatrox is the definition of going 7/1 in lane then getting screwed 5 minutes later by the same person.

But yeah, she's outperformed, the only thing she has to bring that others can't is her ultimate, which is completely unique in itself. But yeah, Kayle just, doesn't perform amazingly, especially after they bopped her more with her ult cooldown nerf. It was needed though, I suppose.

I love Aatrox too, honestly think he's in a slightly better spot than Kayle atm. That is just my opinion though, they both aren't very good.

Darth Pixy Misa1 votes

Reckoning should get it's 80% ap ratio back Righteous fury should have 25% ap + 25% ad ratios

Kilane2 votes

No, I want her Fury have 40% ap ratio back and 60% Ap Q.

That way she's more of a unique sustain dmg fighter rather then typical single target nuke.

MrBuffington1 votes

I think you had bad luck is all, it happens to everyone. Kayle is still strong, just probably can't put an entire team on her back like she used to (which is a sign of imbalance). One game doesn't not prove a trend, in fact Kayle's win rates are all above 50% iirc, and the fact you were able to do well with Kayle despite the enemy team snowballing super hard shows, imo, she's still strong.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

I think you had bad luck is all, it happens to everyone. Kayle is still strong, just probably can't put an entire team on her back like she used to (which is a sign of imbalance). One game doesn't not prove a trend, in fact Kayle's win rates are all above 50% iirc, and the fact you were able to do well with Kayle despite the enemy team snowballing super hard shows, imo, she's still strong.

Kayle's winrate isn't above 50% at all, in fact, they barely dip above 50% and she only has 2.5% playrate, that means that the people that play her have atleast a bare minimum of understanding her kit, I hope?

MrBuffington1 votes

Depends where you look; champion.gg has her mid, top, and jungle win rates at 51, 53, and 50%, respectively.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

Depends where you look; champion.gg has her mid, top, and jungle win rates at 51, 53, and 50%, respectively.

Champion.gg only measures Plat+. The majority of players aren't plat+, just saying.

MrBuffington1 votes

Right, Riot doesn't balance for the majority of players, they essentially balance for best case scenario. That's why difficult champions will probably never have high win rates (unless something went horribly wrong).

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

Right, Riot doesn't balance for the majority of players, they essentially balance for best case scenario. That's why difficult champions will probably never have high win rates (unless something went horribly wrong).

Well, although those winrates are decent, she still is one of the least played. So of the low majority 5%, you take 1% of that 5% and that's the kayle players.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea, I generally get the impression that Kayle is one of those champions that surges in popularity when she's OP; she's not an inherently popular champion (ie. Lee Sin, Thresh, Riven, Vayne). Most people probably just find her kit boring, she's more of a champion that just grinds the enemy down, not one to make huge plays necessarily (even clutch ults are pretty underappreciated imo).

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

Yea, I generally get the impression that Kayle is one of those champions that surges in popularity when she's OP; she's not an inherently popular champion (ie. Lee Sin, Thresh, Riven, Vayne). Most people probably just find her kit boring, she's more of a champion that just grinds the enemy down, not one to make huge plays necessarily (even clutch ults are pretty underappreciated imo).

I find people just don't notice it enough to make time of it. I ulted the yasuo and instead of escaping, which he could've, he just jumped back in like it was a Tryndamere ultimate ;-;. But as it is, even her burst isn't instant, and she just whittles you down, she's more of a duelist that can't destroy you instantly, that takes time. Whereas this meta doesn't appreciate duelist in the beginning, but she's screwed over more because she takes a bit more time then most ;o? Maybe I'm spewing nonsense, who knows

MrBuffington1 votes

LS (head coach of Team Gravity) once described Kayle as this train that the enemy team has to stop; she slowly gains momentum throughout the game and just becomes very, very difficult to deal with as the game gets longer (assuming she's played well, of course). You don't need to go for huge burst or risky plays since she just scales up and slowly grinds her way to the enemy nexus.

I've also heard Kayle might see a spike in popularity in top lane, since tanks are more popular now and Kayle shreds everything with her passive. She kind of melts through everything at a similar rate; tanks, squishies, towers, etc. Her ult also counters burst, and she doesn't usually need more than a few seconds to melt someone assuming you're building AS Kayle and you're not horribly behind, so once she gets going she should be able to duel most anyone, again, assuming she's played correctly.

TotalJerk1 votes

Fed champions have more health and resistances from their higher levels. That probably gave you the illusion that Kayle wasn't doing any damage.

Also, Luden's and Spectre's Cowl were bad buys. Void staff is core. You should also consider adding one of the following to your builds: item 3157 item 3100 item 3165 item 3116 item 3174

Solidair31 votes

Play her in the jungle with devourer, my friend. The carry is real.

CreationFlaw1 votes

To be honest, I find the winrate of a 2% playrate champion different then that of a 30% playrate like Zed or Thresh. People still play thresh and Zed even if they're bad, but people usually give up on Kayle or Eve unless they like the kit itself.

CreationFlaw1 votes

Here's Zed's Playrate/winrate, by the way, so you can have something to compare

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

You couldn't win that game either way, it sounds like.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

You couldn't win that game either way, it sounds like.

Yeah, I had no chance. I got an inhib but that's as far as i could go because outside of 1v1's, they were too fed to fight head on.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I feel like Kayle is in a weird place... She always will be, because she scales weird. But I wouldn't think she would be horribly underpowered... I mean, she's definitely not OP either.

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