All hail Leviathan, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Botrk

Vesarixx··8 votes·2,284 views

Greetings summoners,

Lately there have been quite a few threads about tanks and whether or not they are underpowered. I'm not here to argue one way or another, I'm just here to suggest an itemization change that might help tanks vs the current shredding options. I've heard a few arguments for a "tank deathcap" but most of them seem to focus on the spirit of the elder lizard that appeared at the end of season 4 and added 25% to bonus health. This item wouldn,t really solve any issues since Botrk would be doing extra damage to you if you bought it, aside from this it has the potential to make health stackers or champions that scale with health into nightmares to deal with. Here is my solution, bring back a modified version of the old item Leviathan. For those unfamiliar with the item, leviathan was an item that was a stacking item similar to Sword of the occult and majais soulstealer, but for tanks, which was removed in V1.0.0.152. It used to cost 1275 gold and granted the following stats:

180 health Unique: Your champion gains 32 health per stack, receiving 2 stacks for a kill and 1 stack for an assist. This effect can stack 20 times; you lose a third of your stacks if you die. At 20 stacks, your champion takes 15% less damage.

The reason for the item being removed was in part because the stacking mechanic didn't make sense for tanks, and caused players to act in counterproductive ways. Seeming to favor bruisers more than tanks. My suggestion for the reworked version of the item is as follows:

Builds from: item 3801 + item 1006 + item 3114 + 800 gold

+200 Health +100% health regen +50% mana regen -10% cool down redux

Unique - Tenacity: The duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds, polymorphs, and immobilizes are reduced by 35%. Unique passive: 5% damage redution after resistances from all sources excluding true damage, 1% additional damage reduction, and 25 health per stack, gain 1 stack per minute up to a max of 10 stacks.(+10% additional damage reduction and 300 additional health)

Compared to 100 AR/MR, this 15% might not seem like a lot, but the damage reduction has a few advantages that AR and MR lack.

  1. Does not suffer from the same diminishing returns that AR/MR, e.g. 100 AR/MR = 50% redux, while 200 AR/MR = 67% redux, while the % from this item is constant regardless of other resistances.
  2. Is not affected by penetration or resistance shred. LW, VS, abyssal, BC, wits end, and champion abilities will all have no effect on the % amount reduced by this item, however the more armor that is bypassed the more damage will be blocked by the item.
  3. Defense against mixed damage. The damage reduction vs all sources will provide some protection vs champions who have the potential to deal substantial magic and physical damage e.x. Kog'Maw.

On top of this the passive acts like a health multiplier without the need to balance for scaling, effectively giving 575 health on its own when fully stacked, but only 500 for abilities that scale off of health. The 10% cool down reduction and mana regen help tanks use damage mitigation and cc spells more often. The health and health regen allow for staying in combat longer. The tenacity offers tanks more itemization options in lane, to buy either Ninja Tabi for additional damage mitigation, boots of swiftness for help sticking on enemies, Mobility boots for roaming potential, or sorc/zerkers/lucidity to help win trades.

The stacking over time nature of this item and the fact that it scales better with base defense stats make it a good tank item, but an unattractive item for bruiser builds, since buying this on a bruiser would mean sacrificing early damage in order to allow it time to stack. Not an issue for many tanks who rely on high base damage rather than scaling to trade effectively in lane. Enemies who buy BotrK will still have part of the damage from it, but the % reduction would bring the damage down on the item even after penetration items.

Edit: turns out ninja tabi does not reduce on hit effects, updated to reflect this

16 Comments

ZeroQuest963 votes

I believe a more fitting build path for this item would be a Kindlegem + Null magic mantle + Chain Vest + (balancing amout of gold here) with stats that reflect this, however, this is just my personal opinion. I mostly just can't get behind the philosophy of lots of regen on tanks.

Vesarixx1 votes

{quoted}

I believe a more fitting build path for this item would be a Kindlegem + Null magic mantle + Chain Vest + (balancing amout of gold here) with stats that reflect this, however, this is just my personal opinion. I mostly just can't get behind the philosophy of lots of regen on tanks.

The problem there is that you go from 40 armor and 25 MR to 0 from the item, because if it gave resists as well as the passive it might be too much to deal with early, kindlegem could potentially replace bracer, but the CDR would need to increase. The regen isn't really that high, it's in line with a lot of other tank items of the same tier, actually Raptors cloak already matches it for health regen. The mana is more to try to help mana gated tanks vs resourceless top laners.

ZeroQuest961 votes

Ah. I see your point here. I wasn't exactly sure what you were saying with your original post. This explains it in a way I can understand. Thank you for the clarification.

Champion Skin1 votes

ARMOR and MR does NOT have diminishing returns... If you have 3000 hp each 100 armor/mr will increase the damage you can take by 3000 so if you have 3000 hp and 200 armor you can take 9000 physical damage (not taking armor penetration into account) If you have 3000 hp and 50 mr you can take 4500 magic damage it really isn't that complicated and there are no diminishing returns

(Though yes armor/mr does lose some of it's value if your opponents get Last Whisper/Void staff however as you can see above the more health you have more effective armor/mr is so even with last whisper/void staff armor/mr will be more effective if you just have enough health)

Tin Tarantino1 votes

The formula for determining resistances is x/(x+100) where x=the amount of resistance, 100 will reduce damage by 50%, however an additional 100(200 total) will not reduce the damage by another 50%, instead of bringing the resistance level to 75% it brings it to 67%, this is where the diminishing returns come in. You gain less reduction for the same amount of resistances the more you stack them.

The % of reduction you get from armor/MR stacking gets reduced, but this item applies 15% reduction on top of your armor/MR regardless of how much you have

Champion Skin1 votes

First ting the formula is 100/(x+100) ( http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor )

You gain less % reduction but you gain just as much effective hp from each point of armor/mr

If you have 2000 hp each point of armor/mr will increase the damage you can take from physical/magical damage by 20 (every single point) If you have 2000 hp and you have 0 armor you can take 2000 damage if you have 2000 hp and 100 armor damage get reduced by 100/200=1/2 then the damage you can take then is doubled to 4000 hp if you have 2000 hp and 200 armor damage will get reduced by 100/300=1/3 then the damage you can take is tripled to 6000 hp If you have 2000 hp and 300 armor damage will get reduced by 100/400=1/4 then the damage you can take is quadrupled 8000 hp

TLDR/Summary If you have 2000 hp each 100 armor will allow you to take 2000 more damage no matter how much armor you have 2000hp 0 armor = 2000 effective hp 2000hp 100 armor = 4000 effective hp 2000hp 200 armor = 6000 effective hp

(the effective hp is the physical damage you can take without taking armor penetration into account)

Tin Tarantino1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p0bnA43G,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-08T19:04:00.836+0000)

First ting the formula is 100/(x+100) ( http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor )

That calculates the damage that goes though, x/(x+100) calculates the amount the damage gets reduced, yours gives 33% from 200 armor, the other gives 67% from 200 armor, just depends on which side you are calculating it from, What I'm talking about when I say diminishing returns is that the damage reduction increase from 100 armor to 200 armor is more than the damage reduction increase between 200 and 300 armor, sorry if that wasn't clear, just trying to illustrate the different effect from the items damage reduction.

Champion Skin1 votes

What difference does it do if it has a lower % when you in the end gain the same amount of durability? Well here is how it works 2000 hp in all cases X amount of resistance = X damage that is needed to kill you

0 resistance = 2000 100 resistance = 4000 200 resistance = 6000 300 resistance = 8000

Seems pretty linear and fine to me

Tin Tarantino1 votes

The difference is that you can hit a break even point where this item will benefit you more than an extra 100 resistance, thornmail gets you a different % of resistance increase depending on the armor you have when you buy it, this item does not, it's 15% accross the board

Champion Skin1 votes

Well of course a 15% increase in your durability will be better then a flat increase eventually

I am just so tired of everyone saying and meaning that you get less from armor the more you buy (though of course the more armor/mr you have the more effective it is to buy health and the other way around as they amplify each other)

KnivingDude1 votes

It's Unique Passive makes me think of the old Warmogs Passive.

Tin Tarantino1 votes

more like the old leviathan passive, but stacking in a way that makes sense for tanks

GundayMonday1 votes

I like this a lot. Seems REALLY REALLY strong though. Would be core on champs like Rammus Galio Malphite DrMundo and make them immortal. Probably needs a little tuning but the idea is great!

Vesarixx1 votes

{quoted}

I like this a lot. Seems REALLY REALLY strong though. Would be core on champs like Rammus Galio Malphite DrMundo and make them immortal. Probably needs a little tuning but the idea is great!

Actually the 15% damage reduction isn't that much, 100 armor gets you 50% reduction, the advantage of this though is that it always increases it by 15% regardless of other resistances, and provides some mitigation vs penetration items.

CLG Skrypt1 votes

LEviathan, one of the items i miss most from the old league. I think if it is ever to be re-introduced, it should still function mostly like its stacking counterparts item 3141 and item 3041 . But, as a ''pure tank'' item, i dont think the stacking should be mirrored... Here's my take on it :

LEVIATHAN : item 3801 + item 3067 + 400 gold

+300 hp +50% base health regen +10% cdr

Unique Passive : This item starts at 5 stacks. You gain (+15)hp and 1% damage reduction (after diminishing returns and armor / magic resistance) per stack (maximum 20 stacks). You gain 1 stack per takedown (champion kill / assist, tower participation (hitting within 5 seconds of it dying), and lose half of your stacks, up to a maximum of 6, upon death (basically, if youre under 12 stacks, you lose half, if over 12, you lose 6, ensuring one single death doesnt utterly destroy your tanking capability). The bonus health from Leviathan stacks does not stack with other health increasing effects (the stacks wont be affected by your cinderhulk or hp% runes, but the 300 base hp from the item itself will)

Vesarixx1 votes

I think part of the reason they removed it in the first place was because the stacking mechanic didn't really make sense for tanks, if you are getting kills/assists as a tank already without the items stacks then it pretty much becomes a "win more" type of item, but if not and you still get it early then you can fall behind extremely hard and not be able to function as a tank for your team. With a time based stacking mechanic the item can serve as a reliable late game purchase after normal health/resist items, without being too overbearing early.

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