Minor Garen Buffs Possible? @Riot Reportoir

MarineRevenge··99 votes·18,147 views

Hey dudes, It's been almost a year since the Juggernaut update has released. I think enough time has passed without Garen getting any patches to his kit to see where he sits in the game these days.

Since Garen's initial update, here's what has changed that has directly affected him.

item 3742 item 3156 item 3068 item 3053 These items have all been nerfed in either stats or cost efficiency. (Sunfire cape was buffed significantly initially, but made more expensive after the fact).

item 3071 Cleaver was modified slightly to give less damage but also cost less. I think this change was overall neutral, it made it easier to get cleaver more quickly but reduced 6 item total power slightly. Not really a big swing in either direction in my opinion, the extra AD was worth the delayed build completion I think in most cases since Armor values are greater later on which makes the shred more impactful the further in the game you are, but getting the finished item faster has it's merits too like getting the Rage passive faster.

item 3142 A great snowballing damage item and one that is strictly better than cleaver when the opponents are building little or no armor. Offering anti-kite via the active like cleaver, and higher AD + greater upfront penetration (and better penetration overall vs low armor targets). The AD was reduced by 5, not really super significant change similar to cleaver but it does reduce Garen's potential 6 item total power.

item 3031 Infinity Edge gained 5 attack damage which is a small buff to Critical Strike Garen (remember his Q and E both critically strike, and he scales incredibly hard with these stats). Building IE alongside other snowball items (like ghostblade) make his total power net-neutral in a 6 slot build, but on the whole Infinity Edge is more effective on him now than when he was first released.

item 3078 With the removal of Critical Strike Chance and the emphasis on attack speed Triforce is not really an attractive option on Garen anymore, where pre-change it had some situational usage as a snowball item. I'm sure most players would laugh at the idea of TF on Garen, but his high base AD makes the sheen passive more powerful on him than most, the movespeed was good anti-kite, and the health and attack damage are both good stats on him. Granted its too hard to justify building it today. Overall not a significant change to Garen but it reduces his build flexability some.

item 3083 Warmogs actually became very attractive to me on Garen with the addition of the 10% CDR onto its build path. I don't build it every match but its worth mentioning that this item is actually quite good on Garen right now with how his W works. I think this buffed Garen's tankier builds at least somewhat. Its easy to get 40% cdr now with Cleaver + Warmogs + Visage.

summoner 6 The only significant summoner spell change has been to Ghost which makes it a very attractive option for long-term antikite now. I think if you can give up the ability to Flash onto a high priority target (such as an ADC villian or such) Ghost has a place on Garen now. I like to use it sometimes and it really shores up his kitability weakness in some cases. Depends on the enemy team comp mostly though, flash is better vs displacements/etc. Ghost is better vs higher mobility teams with less hard crowd control I feel.

Garen specific changes to his kit post-update. Garen's Q movespeed was reduced from 35% to 30%, and Garen's base movespeed was reduced from 345 to 340. Both of these changes make him easier to kite. There were also changes to Villiany, both bug fixes (% true damage based on Garen's hp bug and not the enemy) and some slight mechanics change (Garen's deaths don't count towards villiany) but I don't think either Villian change can really be debated. Both looked appropriate but they did make him slightly weaker on the whole which makes it worth mentioning in my opinion.

Where does he stand now?

Platinum+ Garen's winrate has been consistently below 50% for a few patches in a row. According to some sites like champion.gg Garen's winrate in bronze is currently below 50%, and right at or just above 50% in silver and gold. In Diamond+ Garen's winrate seems to drop the most it does at any point and sits in the mid 40s to upper 40s (usually a range of 44% to 48% overall, varies day to day). I think its worth mentioning that Garen's playrate in upper tiers drops significantly because he is not a meta champion or considered to be very strong at a high level of play overall, thus you might be able to indicate that his mid 40's winrate in the diamond+ tier comes from mostly Garen players, and not player's who simply choose Garen because they think he will be the winning pick. Garen players should by nature be more proficient at him than non-garen players, so his mid 40's winrate in diamond+ could be alarming to his true state of balance right now. Average at best in a skilled Garen's hands, weak or well below average in a less experienced players hands.

summoner 4 So what's the point of all this? / TL;DR summoner 4

I think Garen could use a minor buff to his kit to keep him competitive. Without reworking the fundamental mechanics of any of his skills I think there is one change that could boost Garen where he needs it most - his early game. I think right now Garen's biggest problem is that he is unable to lane effectively against ranged champions in top lane due to the nature of his kit, while he also falls behind in melee matchups too because he simply isn't strong enough to brawl against most other melees early on in the game.

Currently Garen's E scales in the following way (BEFORE ISOLATION) Physical Damage Per Spin: 15 / 18.8 / 22.5 / 26.3 / 30 AD Ratio per spin : 34.5 / 35.3 / 36 / 36.8 / 37.5% AD

If Garen's flat damage on his spin was instead changed to Physical Damage Per Spin: 20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30

It might give him the buff he needs to establish himself early on in the game. Right now Garen's rank 1 spin is just flat out pitiful, it feels terrible to use because of how slow it applies, and the damage is incredibly weak. I often find myself maxing Q first because of the increased movespeed duration, and the flat 25 damage boost on Q per rank is about equal to the damage gain on each rank of spin, and the Q damage is upfront instead of overtime making it better for trades in almost every way. Right now garen's Q which is supposed to be his main utility spell, is usually his best damage spell early in the game. Putting some power back into his E at early ranks should make his E the more attractive skill to rank up again, and it would give him a bit of extra damage to establish himself and allow a skilled Garen player to win some of the melee matchups where as right now he loses almost all of them.

I think Garen has become overall weaker post-juggernaut update and I think he is relatively well balanced in most aspects, but his early game is in my opinion too weak despite his ability to scale. Compare his early game to other juggernauts Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi who have considerably stronger lane phases and scale equally well. More than that, Garen has none of the in-fight sustain these champions have which is fine as a contrasting difference, and Garen eventually makes up for it with tanky stats on W and the W damage reduction on activation, but again that is something that takes a lot of time to scale and in many cases Garen scales too slowly at a high level of play to become impactful quickly enough. He just needs a little boost in the early game.

Thanks for reading (or not) my wall of text. I hope you guys agree, I'd love to hear what any of you have to say and would love to hear from Riot Reportoir directly if he has a moment. Cheers dudes.

154 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir47 votes

Hi there! Thanks for the post!

I can't make any promises for change, but I'll pass the ideas here along to the balance crew and see what they think. Personally, I've always said if we ever got a chance to buff him, I'd like to give some more oomph back into his early game. Sounds like you agree. One thing I think probably also hurts him quite a bit that wasn't mentioned here is that Rylai's is such a more commonly purchased item now than it was a year ago, and he really struggles against it for obvious reasons.

So yeah, I'll bring it up next time I get a chance and see what their thoughts on him are.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Hi there! Thanks for the post!

I can't make any promises for change, but I'll pass the ideas here along to the balance crew and see what they think. Personally, I've always said if we ever got a chance to buff him, I'd like to give some more oomph back into his early game. Sounds like you agree. One thing I think probably also hurts him quite a bit that wasn't mentioned here is that Rylai's is such a more commonly purchased item now than it was a year ago, and he really struggles against it for obvious reasons.

So yeah, I'll bring it up next time I get a chance and see what their thoughts on him are.

well.

that and the nerf to swifties at the same time, and the nerfs to almost every one of his core items over time.

i guess its also a lot of cc heavy mages running around, but rylais is a problem in general. it should be a nieche item, and is bought on just too many champions for the stats and to create permaslows.

however, i have to say. wasnt rylais changed to what it is long before garens winrate plummeted with the mage update?

Sire Hippington1 votes

just that befor that mages and thus rylais weren't popular. But suince the mage-update, you have not only the mages which by them selfs are strong vs garen but also alot more rylais goin on which all piles up on the other indirect nerfs he recived And since the mage update, his winrate declines.

Also, ashe has increased in popularity while rocking a massive winrate, but nah, permaslow is only a problem if scarner has it...

Flying Buntcake4 votes

That backhand Scarner shaming. lol [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Only Play Darius1 votes

Ashe's slow is very light, often unnoticeable until late game. And I think the issue with Skarner was that while Ashe was squishy and you could turn around and kill her if she wasn't letting you get away, that wasn't an option when dealing with Skarner. Same with Sejuani.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Ashe's slow gets quite noticeable in midgame already, with two items(IE+Runaan's) and ~lvl 12, it's about 40%(and with that higher than scarners was) Old ashe's slow had the same numbers as scarners, 15-35%.

while Ashe was squishy and you could turn around and kill her

That was the stated reason, yes. But now tell me, if you play a melee without gapcloser, how exactly do you turn around on her and kill her when beeing permaslowed? Also, what do you do if she can fight back when you turn around? Adc, especially in the lategame, don't magically die just because you turn around on them, they usually have more dps than any other champ pared with stupid amounts of lifesteal. There are plenty of champs that don't really have the tools to turn around and fight vs ranged permaslow, and any melee toplaner that had the displeasure of faceing a frozenmallet gnar will second this. However, running away is not much of an options because of the slow and range they have.

Permaslow on a ranged champion is just even more toxic than on a melee.

DuckRaptor17 votes

@RiotRepertoir, Patch 5.19 (Fixed a bug where Judgment was dealing damage to the Villain equal to 1% of Garen’s Health rather than the Villain’s) Garen R.I.P, Garen get harder and be buff plz...

RiotRiotRepertoir19 votes

Yeah, not my proudest bug :p

LegenDariusGaren8 votes

Speaking of bugs, you never checked back with an answer to the W stacking bug http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/ZINaExAr-riotrepertoir-major-bug-on-w-stacking-on-garen

BloodyTompon2 votes

That begs the question of what is your proudest bug :p

I Q6 votes

Khazix Is my proudest Bug

BloodyTompon3 votes

I deserved that.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, not my proudest bug :p

at least its not as bad as sion using his enemies ad value to calculate his ult damage. XD

AP Ezreal is OP4 votes

To be honest, the few buffs he could use are reverts of his previous nerfs (-5% MS on Q + 5 Base MS) and an early game E buff.

I mean, right now, his early game is terrible. Most melee champions he used ro wim against in lane are beating him now and they also scale a lot better than him Darius Irelia Yasuo Renekton for example). His rank 1 E is unnoticeable. Heck, I would prefer autoattacking for 3 seconds rather than use my E at level 3 and out a second point on my Q. This is lame, as Garen used ro be known as the god lane bully. While his rework gave him a lot more late game potential, it doesn't do much, as he is still bery kiteable, and straight forward, so players can play around him a lot.

And even if he hits his "late game", this is a meta filled with slows and CCs everywhere (red buff, item 3116 item 3025 Ashe etc. ) and it deeply hurts Garen, as even if he cleanses one slow with his Q, another one will come up and just stack on him.

He got movement speed nerfs after his rework, because items like item 3742 item 3009 were really strong back then, and Alacrity was also a thing. Now that literally all of those things have been either nerfed/removed, Garen could use the little oomph back to his early game.

MarineRevenge2 votes

Thanks a lot for the reply. That's awesome that we both feel similarly about what Garen would need. You're right about the rylai's, and I guess I also left out swiftness boots as a tool that was useful to him but has become less so. On a side note I'd like to just add out there the most popular Garen keystone is Grasp, but I prefer 12/18/0 masteries with the damage bonuses and stormraiders keystone which really comes in handy in the rylai's age. I'd recommend any other Garen players to give it a try.

ripGarenGod4 votes

{quoted}

Hi there! Thanks for the post!

I can't make any promises for change, but I'll pass the ideas here along to the balance crew and see what they think. Personally, I've always said if we ever got a chance to buff him, I'd like to give some more oomph back into his early game. Sounds like you agree. One thing I think probably also hurts him quite a bit that wasn't mentioned here is that Rylai's is such a more commonly purchased item now than it was a year ago, and he really struggles against it for obvious reasons.

So yeah, I'll bring it up next time I get a chance and see what their thoughts on him are.

Hi, RiotRepertoir, any update on possible garen buffs?

Critmaster Garen33 votes

as far as garen goes, i would be fine with his weak early game, if he hyperscaled into lategame like nasus in return.

imo it would be worth thinking about putting a soft cap on his w passive (like threshs armor passive) and put infinite scaling on it. there would be technically no limit to how much resistances he can stack, but he would gain less resistances with each stack, the more he already has.

or they could give him extra resistance stacks for takdowns on villains. which would be another possibility. his w is currently the only ability that doesnt have interaction with the villain passive.

MarineRevenge14 votes

i think the soft cap on W is an interesting idea, but I think it wouldn't fix his biggest issue right now which is (In my opinion) not becoming a relevant character fast enough in many games because of his inability to really go toe-to-toe with most ranged AND melee opponents in top lane. As a character who is almost solely a damage threat, if he can't do that job he sort of just falls flat. I think he falls flat most of the time right now.

UnbeatablePlayer1 votes

Garen doesn't suffer at all late game. He can still one shot an adc with no fight back with his silence and e as long as he has a cleaver. Garen doesn't need any buffs..

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

He can still one shot an adc

no. full ad garen can kill an adc incredibly fast, but thats more of a fun build.

generally garen is about sustained damage, and he will need at least a full spin to get an adc in kill range, even if hes the villain.

and then there are some adc who can just straight up win by facetanking him even with the villain mark. Vayne Graves are the ones i remember doing this.

weeaboomer1 votes

Since when can vayne facetank a garen? Unless you're talking about "bruiser vayne" then sure.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobi Only Sways,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oaPHxfXz,comment-id=0004000200000000,timestamp=2016-07-17T02:13:43.994+0000)

Since when can vayne facetank a garen? Unless you're talking about "bruiser vayne" then sure.

no. a 6 item vayne can actually facetank garen through his spin with a bork active and burst him down with auto attacks before she gets into kill range.

you just dont deal enough damage through a phantom dancer to kill a vayne whos lifestealing off you and shredding your health as if you didnt build a single defensive item.

she doesnt even need her q or try to kite. just sit there, auto attack and use bork active.

QjTHqo3RTq2 votes

Thresh passive no longer has a softcap by the way. its a flat 0.75 armor and ap bonus until you reach the limit of 10,000 souls. If someone were to hit that that in an actual game, it's been hours, maybe even a couple days. The most amount of souls ive goteen was 230 souls in a 60-70 minute game.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Thresh passive no longer has a softcap by the way. its a flat 0.75 armor and ap bonus until you reach the limit of 10,000 souls. If someone were to hit that that in an actual game, it's been hours, maybe even a couple days. The most amount of souls ive goteen was 230 souls in a 60-70 minute game.

ok, well. if thresh still has the soft cap or not isnt quite important. you know what i mean :)

what they could do is increase the current stack rate to .4 for the first 10 points. down to .3 per stack for the next 10 points, down to .2 until 30 points and then .1 resitance stack per unit killed without limit.

this would give him a slight buff to his early game, especially against ranged champions, and a buff to super late game if he manages to farm 300 cs. (which would mean ~20 resistances more on his w at 40 min - 50 min)

de9z4f11 votes

demacia !!

Mutus10 votes

Meanwhile Nasus struggles @ 44% winrate and hasn't been significantly buffed in years and struggles even late-game because of zero armor penetration unless they fight in your E, has no ms buff skills, has an kit that relies on him getting farm time or he doesn't get to be even remotely strong, and is consistently easy to kite.

MarineRevenge66 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Nasus struggles @ 44% winrate and hasn't been significantly buffed in years and struggles even late-game because of zero armor penetration unless they fight in your E, has no ms buff skills, has an kit that relies on him getting farm time or he doesn't get to be even remotely strong, and is consistently easy to kite.

wanting a small buff for garen doesn't mean i think other champs don't deserve buffs more. They can both be buffed at the same time if the developers will it.

weeaboomer8 votes

Orrrrr, Susan can get a rework due to his unhealthy kit.

HighH18 votes

Keep the stacking mechanic the rest can change. Nasus isn't Nasus without stacks.

Jonxx2 votes

That's the "unhealthy" part tho. Still agreed, stacks should stay.

Vouloir Oublier1 votes

At least it's not as bad as kalista's 44.7% winrate(plat+). The site that i'm using says that in plat+ nasus's winrate is 47.7, which isn't that far behind garen's in the first place

warpenguin55515 votes

she still deserves that.

Critmaster Garen34 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Nasus struggles @ 44% winrate and hasn't been significantly buffed in years and struggles even late-game because of zero armor penetration unless they fight in your E, has no ms buff skills, has an kit that relies on him getting farm time or he doesn't get to be even remotely strong, and is consistently easy to kite.

nasus has a bit increase in play rate right now and still has his nieche as a strong splitpusher at the very least.

i agree, that he struggles aswell and some slight changes to his scaling could really help. imo he should get a mini rework that targets his passive, w, ult, and mainly his e scalings to be more in line with other juggernauts.

changing his e to physical damage to profit from cleaver, and putting some % health scalings into his kit to give him an incentive to stack health could be good.

the only thing that doesnt need changes at all is probably his q.

Shaaolin9 votes

Mordekaiser He is not so great early Base stats are awful.... Compared to garen and darius: Morde=525 - 1766 hp Armor=20 - 83 Doesnt have any kind of cc early on Garen=616 - 2049 hp Armor=27.5 - 78.5 Speed boost on q e silence Darius=582 - 2282 hp Armor=29.9 - 97.9 Pull on e and slow 40% on w

Morde is way weaker early and u atract creep agro if u want to land third q noone will come near u with this on u (3!!!)

DuckRaptor14 votes

Morde and Darius 1v1 soloq champ both 1v1 never lose but Garen 1v1 lane all top lane champ lose useless passive teamfight useless no ct play etc...

MarineRevenge39 votes

{quoted}

Mordekaiser He is not so great early Base stats are awful.... Compared to garen and darius: Morde=525 - 1766 hp Armor=20 - 83 Doesnt have any kind of cc early on Garen=616 - 2049 hp Armor=27.5 - 78.5 Speed boost on q e silence Darius=582 - 2282 hp Armor=29.9 - 97.9 Pull on e and slow 40% on w

Morde is way weaker early and u atract creep agro if u want to land third q noone will come near u with this on u (3!!!)

I know some high level morde players who run top lane and don't struggle to snowball early. His base health and armor might be lower than Garen/Darius/Illaoi but morde has some significant infight sustain and a passive which is essentially more health. You mention Garen's speed boost on Q, but morde also has a speed boost on his W. I'm also not taking sides on whether or not mordekaiser is strong/weak/etc but I don't believe he is weaker than Garen early.

Raid Boss Morde5 votes

Do you really think Morde's W speed boost is comparable to an on-demand speed boost?

MarineRevenge25 votes

{quoted}

I agree my subject http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/8MUzEAhz-riot-very-important-about-garen

i checked out your thread but it was pretty short so I didnt have much to comment on.

Dr Poro4 votes

I think Garen is at a fine spot right now. He's a binary and easy to play champion, great for new players but he shouldn't be a strong competive pick for people who have a skill level far above his requirement. Sure, even easy champs are hard to master but Garen is really the prototype of easiness.

He's at 49.5% winrate right now at plat+ and I think that's a perfect spot. Plat+ is definitely above Garen's skill level but still below Yasuo's or Azir's so Garen should be rather average in here and right now he is. Items will change, other champions will change, let's wait until Garen becomes really off balance before touching him. Buffing him now might force a nerf later on if the meta shifts.

MarineRevenge9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oaPHxfXz,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-07-17T00:20:08.180+0000)

I think Garen is at a fine spot right now. He's a binary and easy to play champion, great for new players but he shouldn't be a strong competive pick for people who have a skill level far above his requirement. Sure, even easy champs are hard to master but Garen is really the prototype of easiness.

He's at 49.5% winrate right now at plat+ and I think that's a perfect spot. Plat+ is definitely above Garen's skill level but still below Yasuo's or Azir's so Garen should be rather average in here and right now he is. Items will change, other champions will change, let's wait until Garen becomes really off balance before touching him. Buffing him now might force a nerf later on if the meta shifts.

his platinum elo winrate isn't too bad most of the time, but his diamond+ winrate does take a dive. I don't think he needs to be LCS level but I think his early game is a bit weaker than it should be. His E is so unsatisfying before level 10, and its especially bad level 2-6. I really think he deserves a slightly better 2-8 which something like what I suggested would do without making his lategame any better than it is right now.

MadManApocalypse2 votes

As much as I despise playing against that annoying champion, he does need a bit more strength to his E. (LATE GAME)

Or another way to change it is, to reduce the spin speed, increase it's damage and allow it to proc on hit effects. Think it would introduce some interesting counterplay while allowing the black cleaver to stack faster giving him a greater chance in game instead of having to AA for all of them.

MarineRevenge12 votes

cleaver procs on physical damage so his spin already applies it. But on-hit effects is something other people have mentioned in the past. I'm not sure how good that would be, trying to think of on-hit effects that would work nicely.. the only ones that come to mind seem like they would be way too strong. 10 procs on level 16 E, think about applying BOTRK passive or say Tiamat procs 10 times in a 3 second period, that would be insane. Master Yi level of proc's really. Might be too strong.

InstaPoppy1 votes

Atleast make his ult a skillshot if he gets a buff :|

DuckRaptor35 votes

I agree Garen Hardest champion So be it. and buff

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

Maybe if he required a brain he could get some love, but as he is now, no. No champion deserves a reward when no brain power is put into playing them.

Critmaster Garen10 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Pumpkin Kinq,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oaPHxfXz,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-07-17T01:02:20.866+0000)

Maybe if he required a brain he could get some love, but as he is now, no. No champion deserves a reward when no brain power is put into playing them.

he requires a lot of decision making.

hes actually not that easy to play. his ult is probably the ability that is the most difficult to utilize to full effect. since it scales with magic damage and missing health, it requires a large amount of games to figure out when you can ult which opponent without either wasting damage by ulting too late, or ulting too early and have your opponent escape with a sliver of health.

i already noticed a 1% - 3% damage change when i switched masteries and people kept living with 50 hp after my ult. it required a time to adjust.

Darkslayer854 votes

THIS IS WHAT I SAY EVERYTIME I PLAY GAREN. Glad someone agrees.

TheHurricaneGamr1 votes

I can see what you're getting at, but have you ever laned against a Garen as a strictly melee champion? The experience is so frustrating. He walks up to you, Q's you, and spins for some stupid good damage. Now is there anything wrong with champions that have a good early game? No, no there is not, as most juggernauts still do decent damage throughout the game, but have a hard time putting it out usually. Garen's frustration issues are somewhat similar to Teemo or TahmKench . He is able to trade with you but you can't trade with him. For me, that makes for a frustrating experience. I don't get a choice as to whether fight him or use my mobility to escape him. In addition, you have to be extremely careful when walking up for CS post six since you have to constantly be afraid of his ultimate and you have no idea how much that is going to chunk you for. If I had to change Garen, It would look something like this:

Q: Damage: 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 ----> 60/75/90/105/120 No longer Silences but slows for 90%

This allows for some champions like Shen to escape him and gives people an opportunity to fight Garen. He will still probably outdamage you, but a least you get a say when trading. In addition, it puts an ommph into the intial trade, but falls off more late game.

W: Same old damage reduction, nothing new here

E: Physical Damage Per Spin: 15 / 18.8 / 22.5 / 26.3 / 30 --->20/22/24/26/28 Solidifies his early game presence, although the numbers may be overtuned.

Overall, this solves some of the problems that i see with Garen as a champion by giving melee champions some opportunity to fight him and solidifying his early game presence.

MarineRevenge15 votes

i've played since season 1 so i've played against garen in every iteration many times, when someone picks Garen from me in solo queue i just play tryndamere, darius, jax, irelia, really any melee can beat him if you know what hes capable of in the early game and a garen that is behind is pretty useless mid-game/late.

i hear your concerns but i don't think the suggestion for E buff is too strong, and Q damage also isn't overtuned in my opinion and is fine as is. I think a heavy slow goes against the principle of juggernaut and would only serve to make him harder to kite which is at odds with the juggernaut ideology.

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