@Stashu Please listen to us, please know I do not hate you

Hex the FenFen·Nov 29, 2014·20 votes·1,372 views

Stashu, listen. I appreciate what you are trying to do and I also know you are the designer and I am the player. But heed our words, Cass can not have a passive that punishes her damage and play style so much. The stacking passive as we have it now does not work, especially since the "late game" does not really exist much anymore since games can be won so easily so much faster now. Not only that but Cass is not mobile, or tanky. She can not switch targets, she has to stay on one person all the time. Her skills are much to hard to hit to keep switching targets and any intelligent player can avoid her spell rotation. Please hear me out, scrap the passive, focus on her DoT damage and not her E burst. Right now her poison is laughable and irrelevant.

29 Comments

FiraBurnNov 29, 20144 votes

Another Cass thread zzzzzz give him a break. Jeez Cass players are a bunch of baby's. you never seen so much skarner players making a lot of rage thread when he got that crappy rework. At least this guy trying to fix your "main" champ. Bet none of you didn't even play Cass pre rework just want to complain.

SaiannaNov 29, 20146 votes

If quality of a thread doesn't help, then maybe quantity?

And fyi, i've played alot as cass before rework and after.. Changes are huge. Unfortunately for worse..

ChargeItDownMidNov 29, 20142 votes

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SaiannaNov 29, 20143 votes

Dear HAAAAAAAALP, numbers aren't off. We do NOT want Cassupeiya revolving only on her E. We WANT something like pre-revamped DOT posion lady, where main focus on damage comes from Damage over time.

yellowbricksNov 29, 20145 votes

Another Cass thread zzzzzz give him a break. Jeez Cass players are a bunch of baby's. you never seen so much skarner players making a lot of rage thread when he got that crappy rework. At least this guy trying to fix your "main" champ. Bet none of you didn't even play Cass pre rework just want to complain.

You're free to just not read them. We aren't going to stop until her passive is not a shitty ball of stats that actively gates anything previously good about the champ. Also fuck off with your assumptions, you know nothing of the people posting, so don't try to act like it.

Neo CyrusNov 30, 20141 votes

I don't want to hear a sub-bronze tell me what I was and wasn't able to play.

Caustic CrusaderNov 30, 20143 votes

Agreed, let's stop actively discussing balance issues and how to fix a fucking massive mistake and go back to spamming threads filled with nothing but "ok".

Serpents EmbraceNov 29, 20144 votes

These are old complaints. He's either seen them and ignored them, or he's chosen not to read our feedback in the first place.

It's been long enough that I've begun to believe it's the latter.

I do hate him. He's a bad person, as evidenced by what communication we've gotten lately, on top of a bad designer, based on how awful the whole concept behind the Cassiopeia rework is.

Hyrum GraffNov 30, 20143 votes

as evidenced by what communication we've gotten lately,

Gosh, the way a designer talks to, like, 5 mains who haven't had a chance to play his PBE changes, when he's obviously working hard on this, makes him a bad person.

I want riot to communicate with us. Please stop discouraging it. Would you rather he not talk at all?

ChargeItDownMidNov 29, 20143 votes

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U4fyn2vZzWNov 30, 20144 votes

Yeah because it's so interesting to just buttonmash a single key that you spent 30-40 minutes stacking a passive for to make it worth a damn then being a dot mage that actually has to position and manage (Cassiopeia was never a generic burst mage fyi). She's basically an ADC that just happens to scale off of AP and needs to poison her targets before using autos that happen to cost mana and also happen to require her to farm 40 minutes.

Again, you have no ranked Cassiopeia games played (Idk about norms) so please leave all Cass related discussions. You have to be trolling because it's already been proven numerous times that numbers cannot fix this champion without her being overpowered or being even more underpowered, it's also been proven that this passive sololy exists to compensate for her butchered ratios except it limits her build options more requiring you to go completely glass cannon.

ChargeItDownMidNov 30, 20141 votes

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TonyTonyMordecaiNov 30, 20142 votes

I don't think we need another Urgot. Riot already fixed one ugly champ(Sion looks badass now), and they need to move on to make Urgot look more badass instead of an ugly crab-man. I never really played as Cassiopeia, but I feel like the positioning adds a lot more gameplay and skill than just button mashing. In ranked games, I'm sure there's more time given to farm, but at the moment her passive requires too much farming to get her passive to the point it needs to be, without being a glass cannon that can't really position herself properly without walking into a 1v1 she can't even win. While her passive was interesting when I first saw it, and made me think that Cassiopeia was changed to benefit in the late game, but hearing what most people are saying, the stacks don't really flow in fast enough to make that final form of her passive take effect before the game has reached 30 min, and by that time the enemy team probably surrendered because you were destroying, or the game ended because you destroyed the nexus, or the game is pretty even and it's literally one kill away from getting the game thrown. Cassiopeia sounds like she needs to be the DoT poisen snake lady, or rather "acid" is a better word, that she sort of started out to be, and she needs a passive/kit that revolves around understanding how to use her in order to be a good Cass player. If the algorithm is the reason Cass doesn't perform well, then so be it. Fix the math. But hearing these people playing as Cass(and I'm guessing they've been playing as her for quite a while) and saying there isn't enough power behind her key DoT characteristic that MADE her Cassiopeia, then Riot/Champion Update Team needs to look into what they can do to: A) improve her current passive to make it more relevant in a game that isn't going to last an hour B) change the passive to bring back her key characteristic from the old days C) make the passive something like Syndra's or Viktor's where it permits some sort of thought and can change how/where you play the champion. Support Viktor: augment W first, Viktor Mid: augment E first, ADC Viktor(don't try this): augment Q first. Except Syndra players, I've noticed, usually rank Q first anyway because of the added damage towards champions is beneficial to duals and teamfights.

So..... Given what I said, I think I summed up what most people are thinking of what needs to be changed about Cassiopeia to have her return to the spotlight as a viable champion who can hold her ground, and where people are worried that they have to toss her to the "underpowered, don't even try" bin with the rest of the champions who need to be fixed because there is either no key identity, or the kit is just dumb and leaves the champion in a spot where no one wants to use them because they stand no match against other newer champions(Taric is in the pool to get redone, and Sion just got redone to fit into the role of a tank who can go all in, and thrives in the EXACT MIDDLE of the fight, given the usefulness of his ultimate's engage)

Any Questions?

ChargeItDownMidNov 30, 20141 votes

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TonyTonyMordecaiNov 30, 20142 votes

I'm guessing you didn't fully read my paragraph of analyzing the complaints given about her passive...

Whatever, but her previous identity was that she could use her AOE to her advantage to put some DoT onto her foes if she laid down the noxious blast(or whatever the spreading circle of poison is called), then they are slowed, and they have to back off because they have seconds of AP slicing off their health, and they either have to coordinate someone looping around the long way to catch her, or just give up and say "when she gets back to lane, we need to team up on her, and block her off so she has no way of escaping", since her only form of defense past her noxious blast is her ultimate, which only slows if her chasers are running away from her. I feel like most of the "AOE mages" you mention, are those which have kits that give them the true identity that they needed, and it worked for them for the duration of them being on the live servers. Ziggs is mostly AOE, but his kit has upsides and downsides to it: his Q is great for poking when enemy is under tower, his E is great for when the enemy team is clustered together, because they'll all be slowed and damaged with each bomb they step on, his W gives him an escape or an engage to lead into another team member's combo, and his R is great for picking off people who might be low, and aren't really paying attention to the giant red circle that means almost certain death for them. What other AOE mages are you thinking of? Because I can only think of a few that really play almost the same way, but the point is: their kits all gave them some sort of identity that gives them variance from the rest of the large 123 champion roster. Cassiopeia(I just thought of this now, so bear with me) should have a passive that adds a stack of poison DoT that increases each second they have are damaged with one of her abilities that apply poison to them, and stops at a somewhat reasonable number(5, maybe) and the DoT is a certain percentage of the total AP per second(10%?) or a base amount with a percentage of total AP and then increases the percentage added to the poison damage based on the passive stacks given to the target, and also adds to the combo-based kit that she probably has now, and then offers some sort of skill cap to allow positioning and proper sequence of abilities, rather than just spamming E because the target is poisoned and now you get to use E again in a second(change E to deal base damage, but maybe just continue the duration of the poisoning by X seconds, and maybe at a certain point of the game, the ability(either when maxed or current passive reaches a certain amount of 100 stacks -_-) gives the poison damage to surrounding enemies if the target is already poisoned, increases the range, and does something else to benefit the other stats she has(X% increased AP, for example)

Any OTHER Questions?

P.S. What I said earlier isn't at all saying we should return the jungle items to the confusing and misguided ones we had earlier, which didn't really give any real guidance as to which kind of jungler works best with said jungle item. I'm saying Riot needs to add some better gameplay paths to Cass than just power farm the entire game and hopefully maybe come out to a good contribution to a team fight at 30+ minutes

ChargeItDownMidNov 30, 20141 votes

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TonyTonyMordecaiNov 30, 20142 votes

The targeted spell-spamming playstyle isn't what should be defining characteristic of Cassiopeia. The playstyle you are suggesting is about as thought out as old Sion's "stun-and-slap-you-with-my-axe" skill cap. If there was some sort of synergy across her abilities(similar to Brand) where the abilities have bonus effects if X factor is active, then I would agree with you. But the current thing with the Twin Fang thing is that you land Q then E the rest of the duel because there's like a .1 second cooldown because your target is poisoned.

But in all this...

I do feel like there needs to be a better flow with her power curve from being "farm 1,000 minions then you'll break the 10,000 AP record Veigar currently holds, and now you are stronger than an 18,000 stacked Nasus with 100% crit chance!"... To being more realistic that can be guaranteed in almost every game if the events happened the same way.

But the Twin Fang isn't an aimable skillshot; it's a targeted ability. And it isn't like old Heimerdinger's rockets where they automatically went out to nearby enemies, or Vladimir's E, where it does the same thing. So the only thing you need to do is make sure you are in range so that you can constantly land your E(Twin Fang) thanks to its .1(ish) second cooldown.

yellowbricksNov 30, 20141 votes

The problem isn't that about how well cass's kit works overall as an aoe mage, it is the fact that there are a lot of other aoe mages out there but absolutely 0 mages that act like twin fang. The fact that you keep bringing up the aoe mage is the problem. Cass does not need to be made into one, she is better built around twin fang.

I didn't talk much about the other parts of your post because I think those are points that everyone agrees on. There is no reason for me to re-affirm them. Her passive with their current numbers do not work because she requires way too much time to farm. However, the solution is to simply tune her power curve to be more reasonable while keeping the one unique thing about her playstyle, the twin fang, in the forefront.

How about you stop trying to steal our champ for your little AP Urgot fantasy? Beg riot for a new champ instead of asking them to fuck over people who spent money on Cass and her skins for her previous play style which is now ruined.

ChargeItDownMidNov 30, 20141 votes

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yellowbricksNov 30, 20142 votes

I'm not trying to steal your champion, I am asking for the current champion in the game to be keep the same premise she has and just adjust the numbers. It is OP who is asking for the champion to be switched back into a generic aoe mage which league already has plenty of.

You could build her as an AOE mage, or a single target fang spammer before. Now she's shoehorned into the spammer with no good AOE option. Gee thanks, keep the game so fresh with these champs that can absolutely do only one thing, yeah that's fun. What about the people who paid money for her previous gameplay? You're telling us to get fucked because YOU want some dumb pseudo ADC with no other option.

ChargeItDownMidDec 1, 20141 votes

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yellowbricksDec 1, 20141 votes

O-o you are just realizing this? Riot has been killing offbuilds for years now. There use to be a time where master yi, tryndamere, and corki all had viable ap builds. Sotd malphite and garen are both gone from the game. Ap kog'maw has been slowly killed off patch by patch. Ap hecerim was pretty much killed off when he lost the 1.2 ap ratios on his ult. If you want every champion to be viable with 2-3 different builds, then I would agree with you. However, that is a discussion for another time. Riot clearly wants to steer every champion into one main build and under those circumstances, it makes a lot more sense for cass to be a unique twin fang based champion than just another aoe mage.

Also, anyone who paid money for her previous gameplay already have it in the myrad of other aoe champions there are. If her previous playstyle was actually unique, don't you think more people would have played her and riot wouldn't have had to rework her in the first place? Don't you think the reaction to the rework when the concept came out wouldn't have been so ridiculously overwhelming positive as it was? I'm not going to pretend that the current cass isn't broken, her numbers need a lot of fixing. However, I'm not going to blindly dismiss every part of the rework as you apparently have simply because riot didn't get the numbers right and didn't have time afterwards to fix them because worlds/season 5.

I'm not blindly dismissing it, I did not pay for yet another damn stack based champ. It's not my play style, I hate Nasus, I hate Veigar. I liked Cassiopeia, but riot decided to randomly select her to get smacked with some arbitrary stack passive because "oppressiveness" or whatever their excuse was. If riot would give me a refund for this champ that I now have no interest in, fair enough, I would probably be less harsh, but they don't do that, which is downright despicable. I'm stuck with a champ I don't want to play, and out the money that I paid for her.

The passive is what really gets me. They took away her AP ratios to make you work your ass off to compensate for them with the stupid ball of stats stack system. If the passive wasn't utter shit, I might actually look at playing her seriously again and maybe I'd adapt. But like I said, stacks are not my style, I want my passive to not weigh me down until I've jumped through enough hoops. So until that is fixed, Cass will rot in my roster as a reminder of why I won't be buying any more RP.

Tapu FiniNov 29, 20142 votes

I don't hate him, but I also don't feel he's the right person to continue this rework. He has some good ideas, they're just not good for Cassiopeia.

Hex the FenFenNov 30, 20142 votes

I kind of agree with this, but I also feel as though he has great ideas and he just needs some time to sit down and really think about what he wants to do with her and come up with something out of the ordinary

Epilogue of LifeNov 30, 20142 votes

more like all poke based champions deserve to be nerfed to the ground for their pussy playstyle

Caustic CrusaderNov 30, 20141 votes

Getting close to someone doesn't mean you're playing a risky champ. LeBlanc had to get into basically melee range to hit her W in her combo, didn't mean she wasn't a safe champ. Likewise, Anivia has long range but no way to defend herself when they inevitably get close, given how poorly she can defend herself. LeBlanc's more a "pussy playstyle" champ than Anivia. Just because a champ has range doesn't make them a pansy safe pick. Cass has range but is flatly awful.

Epilogue of LifeDec 1, 20141 votes

But then there are also champs who goes balls deep to kill stuff with no reliable escape...and I totally agree with you on LB, she's way too safe.

WaaweeNov 30, 20142 votes

I feel like all of cass's damage being placed on her e makes her a discount azir. I mean azir's soldier autos are essentially cass's e spell but his are aoe and he can have up to 4 soldiers up at a time with enough cdr.