No seriously. You removed the bruiser/tank Fizz problem by identifying how to keep the AP/assassin build the optimal way to go, and you didn't even have to break him with nerfs on nerfs.
Now if we could tackles these kinds of issues intelligently all the time (such as before with Sejuani and Sion) we could avoid some much unneeded distress at peoples' mains suddenly being borderline unusable unless they play everything perfect.
Matezoide4 votesAP Fizz QQ will restart soon.
Lugg2 votesNow if they would only increase the CD on his E.....
For Carthage2 votesYou really can't tell when you're just wrong, can ya.
Lugg2 votesWell considering that 95% of people agree with me, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
For Carthage2 votesConsidering that that 95% are of a vocal few who actually are about 5% of the total population, I would say you're incredibly wrong.
That's just me pulling the same trick as you. I don't know the actual number. A lot of people agree that Fizz is just frustrating to play against. Very few actually say, "My god Fizz is so goddamn OP I just can't deal I quit". In fact, more people hate Riven and Vayne than Fizz.
Lugg2 votesI can deal with a Riven or Vayne WAY easier than a Fizz. At least they have real counterplay. Fizz literally has no significant weakness once he hits level 3.
For Carthage2 votesOther than he's dropped in two seconds, has no survivability whatsoever, has only semi-reliable burst now, AND didn't just have the resistances against him nerfed into oblivion? Not to mention he's melee relying on a 130 mana cost E to escape anything at all while Riven has zero need to resource manage, can destroy entire teams, has the same exact counterplay, has multitudes more mobility and a fucking shield that scales with her build on top of sustain through itemization?
Oh yeah, he has zero weaknesses at all. You definitely know everything and are clearly the most level-headed and reasonable person here having all the evidence, numbers, and facts to back up your claims instead of just your own personal experience getting roflstomped by a champ known by and large to be one of the low-tier stomp champs in the game because he excels at single-target takedowns and not a ton else, meaning he's incredibly oppressive in tiers where teamfights are borderline non-existent.
Lugg1 votes[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEAHUQh1,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-29T08:11:09.276+0000)
has no survivability whatsoever, Oh yeah, he has zero weaknesses at all.
His E alone gives him some of the most survivability in the game. Add into that he has a dash and his passive reduces physical damage. So I have already proven you wrong.
I would like for you to name a legitimate weakness that Fizz has.
For Carthage1 votesHis passive reduces AA damage - and only AA damage - by about 20 at the max amount. His "dash" is targeted and puts him predictably on the opposite side of his opponent - it's also his most vulnerable moment as it's a full moment where he can't dodge. And his E doesn't doesn't offer a shield, healing, buffs, or anything else to himself other than a brief moment of damage mitigation that doesn't stop DoT's or a variety of tethers, and unless he's exclusively using it to run, you know precisely where he's going to land. He is predictable, in constant danger, and now that his most problematic build has been removed, he is going to be susceptible to burst.
Hell, here, let me help your little brain figure out a way to fight him: play Vayne, E him when he tries to do anything, Q to dodge his incredibly slow moving skillshot ult, and then proceed to kill him because there's nothing else he can do at that point. I didn't want to play this card, but you are goddamn Bronze/Silver - doesn't matter which. Know a low-tier stomp when you see one and realize that you literally just do not know how to play against those champs yet.
Lugg1 votes[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEAHUQh1,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-30T00:11:10.885+0000)
His passive reduces AA damage - and only AA damage - by about 20 at the max amount.
Yeah, it isn't a lot, but at early levels it pretty much cancels out the minion agro so it's easier for him to all in. Plus any damage mitigation is always better than none.
His "dash" is targeted and puts him predictably on the opposite side of his opponent - it's also his most vulnerable moment as it's a full moment where he can't dodge.
The most informative thing you have put in this thread.
I didn't want to play this card, but you are goddamn Bronze/Silver - doesn't matter which. Know a low-tier stomp when you see one and realize that you literally just do not know how to play against those champs yet.
Fizz dominates at all tier levels including pro. So you will have to excuse me if I don't believe that for a second.
On a brighter note. After doing some research into his nerfs on the PBE, it will definitely help keep him from being as toxic. Hopefully it makes it thru to live.
For Carthage1 votesWow, you didn't even look at the nerfs before speaking. What a genius
So just to wrap up the final stupidity of your points:
You know why he has that passive?
Ranged harass 
Ranged harass 
Ranged harass
Ranged harass 
Ranged harass.
Look at any other midlane, any one of them, and you'll find that every one of them has a form of ranged harass to get an enemy low enough to go all-in. Fizz requires that passive because he can only go all-in - he doesn't get another form of harass, he doesn't get "poke", he doesn't get a shield or sustain or anything else - he gets a bunch of abilities that require him to bury his face in the other laner or do nothing. If he didn't have that passive for his laning phase, he'd be garbage.
And he doesn't "dominate" all tier levels - he does moderately well most of the times with some moments where he finds himself doing well. Why? Probably because before this upcoming patch he was able to build whatever he needed to to fit his team rather than fill his designated role. Welcome to logic. Now he's fixed. Next time look shit up and think before you spout off.
Lugg1 votesI did know about the nerf before speaking, but like I said, it hasn't gone live yet, so IT DOESN'T MATTER TILL THEN.
Fizz doesn't really need the poke, he can all-in anytime once he hits level 3 and 100-0 the enemy. That's what his entire kit is build around.
And then there is this: "before this upcoming patch he was able to build whatever he needed to to fit his team rather than fill his designated role." Your words not mine, saying that he is, indeed, OP and in need of nerfs.
Game over. I win.
For Carthage1 votesThat doesn't mean OP. That means versatile. Which is the same thing that Lee Sin has done and the same thing that Ekko gets trashed on for and the same thing that Vi does and the same thing that Nid does - the difference is that Fizz just built different, and so did Nid. Lee has it all in his kit, so does Ekko, and so does Vi. You can't just remove any aspect from those guys' kits to make them more specialized, but it was easy to do on Fizz and Nid - just reduce some AD ratios, buff up the AP ratios, and make the other builds unviable.
Of course, Nid was a different story with 250% AD scaling.
And I'm just going to conclude this now. Because you've probably produced either an aneurysm or a brain tumor by now with how braindead your logic is.
Malix Farwin1 votesI can deal with a Riven or Vayne WAY easier than a Fizz. At least they have real counterplay. Fizz literally has no significant weakness once he hits level 3.
ROFL what!?, riven has a manaless escape that she doesnt need to survive, hard cc, and a shield. Vayne will dance circle around you with a stun and stealth as well as hp% damage that is out of this world and you think 48% WR fizz is a problem. If you argument is that he is annoying to you then you can make that argument feasibly however if you are saying AP Fizz is OP then you need to re-evaluate this game. Fizz has a ton of counterplay and i am getting mixed signals from you. First you say, late game he is unkillable because of his E and then you say level 3 he isn't. Seriously play Fizz.
Lugg1 votesYeah, Riven and Vayne are in need of rework/nerfs in this meta, but Fizz has ALWAYS been OP since release. I'm not saying he needs nerfs because I have problems with him, he needs nerfs because everyone has problems with him.
Sniper 01 votesSejuani is honestly in a really bad state right now. I think that was your point though. xd Riot never intended for him to be built with ad in mind. He's supposed to be an ap assassin. Which I think a lot of people don't understand. His troll poll is a lot less obnoxious when he's not bulky. I mean yah, the iframe is annoying but it's not hard to deal with.
moomoomilkUwU1 votesTrue, but now that he has higher scalings, he will be even stronger late game :(
For Carthage2 votes... You mean the .1 total increased scaling from AP? Which at 500 AP (your start of late-game) would leave him with 50 bonus damage?
And half of that is on a one-time hit Q, meaning the other 25 damage is on W, where they shaved off 20 damage at max W level up until you get that scaling? So 5 increased damage on his W's strike?
Let's not forget that his attack damage will no longer apply the bonus 20% damage on hit. So every hit will do 20 less damage approximately come his level 18 given that he has around 100 AD for an extra 5 magic damage from this effect each time.
Oh yeah. It's going to be such a nightmare.
Lugg1 votesThe Fizz changes aren't going to do anything to fix what is wrong with Fizz. If anything, it will make them worse.
For Carthage2 votesYou mean the E untargetability that lategame is his only survival tool and the fact that unlike other assassins Fizz actually has a defensive passive that does next to nothing late-game versus the damage steroid helping other assassin champs to dish out the damage needed to burst? Or is it the skillshot ult that has such a wide berth that come teamfighting the chances of you landing it on the enemy tank and fucking your entire burst is massive?
Yeah, geez what oppressive gameplay. Fuck Fizz hard.
Lugg1 votesROFL, I honestly have tears from laughing at this one. Complaining about Playful Trickster which is probably the most powerful ability in the game, ults included! Late game it has a CD of like 5 seconds, so he can use it 3 times in a teamfight. Then you try to compare him to other assassins who all fall off late game while Fizz actually gets stronger late game. And then you complain about his ult which will delete whoever it hits. If you can't get the positioning to hit the carry from his Q and E, you probably shouldn't be playing this game.
Oh, my side hurts from laughing so hard.
For Carthage2 votesIf you can't CC him in the amount of time it takes him to do all of that, you shouldn't be typing.
In fact, you shouldn't even be on a computer.
You should be in the hospital hooked up to a feeding tube because you're clearly a vegetable.
Unless you don't take any CC into a Fizz? In which case you're not a vegetable. I'm fairly certain you're a mythical creature who could never exist because you would have become extinct almost upon creation.
Lugg1 votesIf you try to CC him, he just hits E and kills you before your CC comes off CD. I am honestly beginning to wonder if you have ever faced a competent Fizz player.
For Carthage3 votesI've been to Plat 2. So yes.
I have been a competent Fizz player as well. So yes again.
I'm honestly beginning to wonder if you've ever played Fizz yourself to realize what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Lugg1 votesI have played him. Completely broken. I don't play him because there isn't any challenge. I actually like to work for my wins. It's not satisfying otherwise.
For Carthage2 votesAnd I'm assuming you don't play Kat either then because she's a super easy win as well, huh?
Lugg1 votesAs a matter of fact I don't, and for the same reason.
For Carthage2 votesWhat if I were to tell you that Kat isn't even used more than 4% of the time in Master+ rank because she's completely simple to shut down and unreliable on top of even struggling to get herself above 50% winrates anywhere and that the legitimate only reason she's overpowered to you is that she's mechanically simple?
And the only reason Fizz is used widely is because he's a good solo-queue champ? Or did that thought never cross your peabrain?
Lugg1 votesI realize that Kat is much more difficult at high ELO. When I get to that point I will probably start playing her.
Fizz is way more than just a solo q champ. He is picked in pro play all the time.
For Carthage2 votesHe's also beaten all the time in pro play.
Hey, Azir's seen in pro play all the time. And Jinx is, too. Hell, Tristana even sees pro play. Must all be toxically OP. Let's nerf the shit outta all of them.
Lugg1 votesFizz had a 60% win rate this split. I would hardly call that "beaten all the time".
Azir did get nerfed because he was too strong.
One of the biggest problems with Jinx and Tris is that if you back to get an item, you come back to lane and your tower is gone. Doesn't matter at all if you were winning your lane.
For Carthage2 votesOh, you mean the 50% winrates in EU LCS and 43% in NA LCS?
Where the fuck do you get your stats from?
Lugg1 votesFor Carthage2 votesCheck the same stats, retard.
Urgot and LeBlanc have the same winrates. If you're not also bitching about them on those grounds, then you're a hypocrite.
Lugg1 votesUrgot 55% and LB 54%. You're not very good at stats are you?
For Carthage1 votesI'm just going to back away from the troll now. Because either you are trolling and are a special child that gets off on that nonsense or you're legitimately stupid, and I can't feasibly believe that anybody has as low an IQ as what you're portraying.
Lugg1 votesYeah, resort to personal insults since you can't put up a legitimate argument.
RogueWill1 votesThe passive is far from useless. You get to move though units for free.
For Carthage1 votesSo does Kass and Hecarim and numerous other champs.
Here's a list.
jpguy9021 votesWhen did they change fizz? Do you mind posting me a link to the changes? Ive always preferred assassin fizz over bruiser anyway so this has me curious. :D
I went through the 5.16 patch notes again and checked out surrender at twenty but couldn't find anything.
For Carthage3 votesSA20 has his changes in balance for the upcoming 5.17 patch. It's a .05 AP increase to his Q and W each, 5 less base scaling with each rank in W, and the ult now specifies that it only amplifies magic damage.
Basically, you can still go an AP Bruiser Fizz, but AD Bruiser/AD tank is no longer a very viable option.