just an idea... (pantheon related)

My Name Dave·Jan 1, 2016·7 votes·1,484 views

What if pantheon had his passive reworked into some kind of skill that involved holding the button down to block? and replace his mana with a stamina bar or something that drained rapidly while used? then the rest of his cooldowns could be purely cooldown based, although a manaless pantheon sounds terrifying. I'm no pantheon main but his kit seems rather stale and i think it could add some uniqueness to the pool of champions out there as well as a bit more finesse to pantheon himself, you'd have to time to block certain blows like in any kind of RPG where the character wields a shield. just an idea but I'd love to have a discussion on ideas to make his kit a bit more dynamic or if you think its fine and should stay the way its always been I'd love to hear that too.

33 Comments

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20165 votes

pantheons MAIN problem is his non existant base-damage and that his only utility aside from the shitty ultimate is a 1 second stun (wow such cc)

he really doesnt have an identity because he is supposed to be a fighter/assassin but since he has really low base damage, he cant build bruisery to actually be a fighter but his combo pattern also doesnt really allow him to assassinate, ESPECIALLY since he has no combat ultimate.

so, there would be two ways fix that:

rework his entire kit and make him into some sort of cc-fighter with good base damage and less scaling who has more utility in his kit or
simply give him a real ultimate. his ult was cool years ago when there wasnt much mobility in the game but the more mobility there is, the easier it gets to avoid it. ALSO, champions now have tons of knockups and knockbacks which are pantheons absolutely biggest counter because they disrupt his combo. almost every recent champion has knocks. last but not least, all newer champs have much stronge rultimates. for example, rexai has about the same ult as pantheon but she gains like 60% passive attackspeed as bonus. tahmkench has about the same ult but he gains the BEST SCALING PASSIVE IN THE ENTIRE GAME ontop of that while pantheon has nothing on his ult and his ult isnt combat effective. he cant FIGHT because he doesnt have his strongest ability and he cant assassinate because he has no finisher or reliable engage.

this means, the most simple way to make pantheon a good champion would be to give him a new ultimate that gives him strong combat capabilities like lee sins kick or garens execute.

NoPaxtJan 1, 20161 votes

About your "2" his ult is okay, I would speed up the channeling of. Even Sion can cross it before it lands.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20161 votes

nah, its shit. but thanks for your valuable insight.

My Name DaveJan 1, 20162 votes

what if they incorporated something 300 related to his ultimate? He's basically a walking reference to that movie, what if he did the spartan kick for something? ;D

however I do agree with you that he is surely lacking where champions like wukong MonkeyKing and garen Garen surely are not

RalanrJan 1, 20163 votes

His ult is what makes him Pantheon. You can't just remove it.

I agree he needs some changes though.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20163 votes

nah, his ult isnt what makes him pantheon, his ult is what keeps him from being pantheon.

RalanrJan 1, 20161 votes

Care to explain?

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20162 votes

his ult was cool years ago when there wasnt much mobility in the game but the more mobility there is, the easier it gets to avoid it. ALSO, champions now have tons of knockups and knockbacks which are pantheons absolutely biggest counter because they disrupt his combo. almost every recent champion has knocks. last but not least, all newer champs have much stronger ultimates. for example, rexai has about the same ult as pantheon but she gains like 60% passive attackspeed as bonus. tahmkench has about the same ult but he gains the BEST SCALING PASSIVE IN THE ENTIRE GAME ontop of that while pantheon has nothing on his ult and his ult isnt combat effective. he cant FIGHT because he doesnt have his strongest ability and he cant assassinate because he has no finisher or reliable engage.

RalanrJan 1, 20161 votes

It's actually really good when used properly and it can be used to engage for your team.

His ult is honestly my favorite part about him. I can't see that being taken away.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20161 votes

it cant be used properly because you have little control over it. also, in any situation where he doesnt get a good engage with his ult, he basically has no ult. rexai and tahm have the same ultimate but they have extremely strong passives on it, tahm even has the strongest passive in the entire game on it.

i mean you could probably make it so that he gets 10/20/30% of his bonus AD as armor pen or so. like if he has 100 bonus ad and lvl 2 ultimate he gains +20 flat armor pen and so on. so if he has 300 bonus ad later on, he gains 90 flat armor pen. this would make his damage scale extremely good and probably overpowered ;D but it would match tahms passive.

RalanrJan 1, 20163 votes

Little control?

You know that it's not in your best interest to actually hit people with his ult. Rather it's used as a major mobility tool that can't be seen when you land in a bush.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20161 votes

the green circle is still shown even if he uses it on a brush.

also, as i said, rexai and tahmkench have sick damage steroids on their ultimates and they are basically the same as pantheons AND they have massively lower cooldowns. also, it kinda fits their kits while pantheons kit has absolutely no synergy with his ultimate. it would PROBABLY be satisfying if they gave it a similarly strong passive, but a combat ult would just be better.

RalanrJan 1, 20162 votes

The green circle is shown to you and allies. The enemy doesn't see it.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20161 votes

well for them its a red circle or something but they can still see it when you jump on them.

RalanrJan 1, 20161 votes

Not when you're jumping into a bush.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20161 votes

im absolutely sure that it does show, even when jumping into a brush. if you believe it doesnt, show me some proof.

RalanrJan 1, 20161 votes

Should I link my rank 5 mastery?

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20161 votes

yes please. that will prove your point.

junglerboy16Jan 1, 20163 votes

I think the man-drop has to stay in some form, but it has too much false power loaded into it. Right now, if you land a bullseye it deals 1000 (+100% AP) magic damage. That is massive. However, nobody can actually land the damage realistically, so i would suggest that it instead cause his next few abilities to deal bonus damage, or something that allows him to transition his ut into an assassination focused pick tool.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20162 votes

well if you can reliably land it, it would be way too strong and if you cant reliably land it, it negates his power.

right now it has damage and it is a gapcloser. its damage cant really be dealt because you can avoid it and even if you dont avoid it, its pretty low damage and the scaling is completely wasted. the gapcloser is also kinda avoided because even if you can W right after your R, you still have to start your combo with your W which makes it impossible to land a full combo in the first place.

this means, his ultimate doesnt do what it is supposed to do and it alos doesnt fit the rest of his kit. he isnt a champion who wants to jump right into the middle, he wants to either peel for his carries/kill frontliners or assassinate squishies. his ultimate doesnt help with either of that.

he needs an ult that either deals damage or helps him set up his combo or both, like lee sins ultimate.

for example:pantheon channels for 1 second and then dashes to his target (1100 range) and slams it with his shield. this refreshes his passive and knocks his target back a distance of 300 over a duration of 1 second. the slam deals 180/300/420 (+220% bonus ad) damage and if the target collides with anything during its knockback, it gets stunned for 1 second.

AuroramancerJan 1, 20163 votes

non existent base-damage

I'll give you that, but his AD ratios are actually great.

he really doesn't have an identity because he is supposed to be a fighter/assassin but since he has really low base damage, he cant build bruisery to actually be a fighter

You don't need high base damage to build bruisery and be a fighter. The typical bruiser build consists of moderate offensive/defensive itemization. Pantheon is very successful at being a bruiser with item 3142 item 3053 item 3071 item 3156 + item 3143 / item 3102 / item 3074

but his combo pattern also doesnt really allow him to assassinate

What targets are you trying to assassinate by using him? His combo pattern is not the kind that shows up to the enemy bruiser's lane @20-30 minutes in and 1v1 them easy. If you find a lone Marksman, or even if they have their Support with them who has blown their peeling CC, a Spear Shot -> Aegis Stun -> Auto Attack -> Heartseeker Strike deals A LOT of damage to squishy Marksmen. Maybe not 100-0, but when your low cooldown damage spells are back up, it's usually enough to finish the job.

Pantheon is an early-mid game roamer and a late-game team fight disruption bruiser. You can EASILY assassinate Marksmen, either with a well-timed ult during a team fight and the like. A backline diver, if you will, requiring proficient use of his ultimate.

Pantheon may not have the same play pattern as say Irelia/Jax, when it comes to "burst fighter that can solo your marksman even when teammates are nearby", but Pantheon definitely fills the role of "fighter that disrupts team fights and exploits bad marksman positioning".

His kit is fine as is.

With this next point, I'm not flaunting my rank to show off a big boner or anything. Pantheon may not be Challenger/Master tier level champion, but he can perform well @ Diamond level play. I won my promo series to Diamond with him and is my go-to when I'm top lane in a ranked match @ Diamond level. He may not be an LCS power-level champion, but he's good enough to be played at the highest non-competitive/professional levels of play.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20162 votes

low base damage and high ratios require you to build alot of damage to deal alot of damage and thats fine as long as you have ways to consistently apply your damage like for example talon has. if he has alot of damage, chances are high he gets to deal it. same with rengar, khazix, zed and many other champions. pantheon has no reliable ways to deal damage because he has no combo-setup ability (ultimate) that allows him to get in range quickly and reliably.
this would be okay if he was a fighter but he has literally not a single fighter ability except his passive so he really isnt a fighter but an assassin. this also shows in his extremely weak dueling even early and midgame. his 1on1 potential isnt great pre 6 and it certainly doesnt get better.
if you get a bruiser build, there is literally not a single advantage pantheon has over real fighters. if you get a full damage build, at least he is a really good anti-assassin peeler. like if your enemy team has zed, rengar, khazix or even leblanc or fizz, he is really perfect at peeling them off his carries but for that, he kinda needs to be a bit ahead of them so his damage is significant enough (again because he has no ultimate).
he can absolutely never assassinate anyone because his combo takes some time and can be interrupted. basically all of his damage except his Q are extremely conditional and due to the long animations of all his abilities, his combo takes really long compared to other champions. the worst part however is that his combo mostly doesnt KILL his target instantly so if they get ANYTHING on him, he has no further followup damage since his gapcloser (W) is so long cooldown. khazix can jump and has double/triple R, rengar has R and really long duration snare aswell as much faster overall damage. zed has some sort of double triple blink and talon has an uncounterable blink and instant damage.

its really just that pantheon is a combo assassin who is missing an ultimate to assassinate people, thats really all there is about. i mean im diamond 2 and i have over 1000 pantheon games so i know what im talking about all right. and i know every champion can be played even in challenger. but thats not what this is about. this is about pantheon having no place in the game.

like, he isnt even a good laner so you could say "well blabla anything". its not like he can dominate anyone in lane and since he doesnt outscale anyone either, he has no advantage over any single champion in the game. last but not least, hes extremely easy to gank as he has to push the lane to trade but he has no escapes. his jungle clear is slow and doesnt get faster ever so jungling is out of the question too.

he only has 2 abilities that scale on AD and both of them only scale on BONUS AD (thats another reason his base is so low) so steraks gage doesnt do anything for him. and the worst, really the worst thing for him is that NOT A SINGLE ITEM IN THE ENTIRE GAME has only stats that he wants without wasting any stats. he wants armor pen, AD and CDR. there is no item that gives all that or at least 2 of it without wasting stats.

early season 5 was DECENT for him because he could get jungle enchant warriors which gave all three stats and then he could get brutalizer and 3 BF swords, lol. right now, i feel like the best build for him is serrated dirk into 4 BF swords. its actually not bad because it allows you to actually assassinate squishies with maximum damage.

what i would propose:

give W 30% ad scaling and make it reset on kills or assists. give him a new ult or give his current ult some really good armor penetration passive and remove the joker ap-scaling from it, even if it gets no scaling at all.

Rhap RhapJan 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oBZfrn4b,comment-id=000000040000,timestamp=2016-01-01T22:20:49.787+0000)

low base damage and high ratios require you to build alot of damage to deal alot of damage and thats fine as long as you have ways to consistently apply your damage like for example talon has. if he has alot of damage, chances are high he gets to deal it. same with rengar, khazix, zed and many other champions. pantheon has no reliable ways to deal damage because he has no combo-setup ability (ultimate) that allows him to get in range quickly and reliably.

this would be okay if he was a fighter but he has literally not a single fighter ability except his passive so he really isnt a fighter but an assassin. this also shows in his extremely weak dueling even early and midgame. his 1on1 potential isnt great pre 6 and it certainly doesnt get better.

if you get a bruiser build, there is literally not a single advantage pantheon has over real fighters. if you get a full damage build, at least he is a really good anti-assassin peeler. like if your enemy team has zed, rengar, khazix or even leblanc or fizz, he is really perfect at peeling them off his carries but for that, he kinda needs to be a bit ahead of them so his damage is significant enough (again because he has no ultimate).

he can absolutely never assassinate anyone because his combo takes some time and can be interrupted. basically all of his damage except his Q are extremely conditional and due to the long animations of all his abilities, his combo takes really long compared to other champions. the worst part however is that his combo mostly doesnt KILL his target instantly so if they get ANYTHING on him, he has no further followup damage since his gapcloser (W) is so long cooldown. khazix can jump and has double/triple R, rengar has R and really long duration snare aswell as much faster overall damage. zed has some sort of double triple blink and talon has an uncounterable blink and instant damage.

its really just that pantheon is a combo assassin who is missing an ultimate to assassinate people, thats really all there is about. i mean im diamond 2 and i have over 1000 pantheon games so i know what im talking about all right. and i know every champion can be played even in challenger. but thats not what this is about. this is about pantheon having no place in the game.

like, he isnt even a good laner so you could say "well blabla anything". its not like he can dominate anyone in lane and since he doesnt outscale anyone either, he has no advantage over any single champion in the game. last but not least, hes extremely easy to gank as he has to push the lane to trade but he has no escapes. his jungle clear is slow and doesnt get faster ever so jungling is out of the question too.

he only has 2 abilities that scale on AD and both of them only scale on BONUS AD (thats another reason his base is so low) so steraks gage doesnt do anything for him. and the worst, really the worst thing for him is that NOT A SINGLE ITEM IN THE ENTIRE GAME has only stats that he wants without wasting any stats. he wants armor pen, AD and CDR. there is no item that gives all that or at least 2 of it without wasting stats.

early season 5 was DECENT for him because he could get jungle enchant warriors which gave all three stats and then he could get brutalizer and 3 BF swords, lol. right now, i feel like the best build for him is serrated dirk into 4 BF swords. its actually not bad because it allows you to actually assassinate squishies with maximum damage.

what i would propose:

give W 30% ad scaling and make it reset on kills or assists. give him a new ult or give his current ult some really good armor penetration passive and remove the joker ap-scaling from it, even if it gets no scaling at all.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 15, 20161 votes

what? ;o

AuroramancerJan 1, 20163 votes

I'm a Pantheon main and I think Pantheon is fine and should stay the way he is.

Turning him into a stamina champion (where this stamina is only used for one ability?) and making his other abilities manaless would require a gutting of his base damages (as if they weren't already low) and would be generally unfun to play as.

If you're bringing this idea up on the basis of "Pantheon runs out of mana too quickly", then he's being played wrong. In the top lane, spamming Spear Shot is the wrong way to go. Heartseeker Strike is significantly more "damage per mana point" efficient.

Pantheon already trades well with his passive and there is a high skill ceiling for his passive's use, in that you can tower dive someone by already having his passive ready, drawing aggro, and saving your stun for after the first tower shot so that you get the reset on it, and using your spells and auto attacks to get the 3rd proc of passive, effectively blocking THREE tower shots.

There's also the fact that you can store up "charges" toward his passive and then use his W to get the passive proc'd, lose the passive block, then gain it back almost instantly with your next spell or auto attack because you already stored up the "charges" beforehand.

Proficient use of his Heartseeker Strike (location, timing, etc.) as well as his ultimate, gives a lot of way for player skill with Pantheon.

I will say this though: Pantheon does punish his own player when they are inexperienced. But he's very rewarding to play when you've figured out how to best play and build him.

My Name DaveJan 1, 20161 votes

Thank you so much for your input!

I will admit, an experienced pantheon player can sometimes leave me in a daze. although then again when playing against him it feels like no effort is put into playing him as my health bar is slowly Q'd away all laning phase. ii wish his kit was a bit more dynamic, his Q is an on target damage spell, and honestly i dont see much wrong there other than maybe the fact it could use some utility, such as Gangplank Q giving bonus gold. While his E is an aoe damage spell when i personally think it isnt entirely necessary. I will reiterate, I am no pantheon main. However i do believe that the fact that he has an aoe dot doesnt help him much other than give him otherwise much needed waveclear (unless you built item 3074 ). that being because he spends most his time in a solo lane and even when he takes part in team fights he ends up using it on only one target anyways because its so narrow. i think his w is unique and definitely a solid and staple part of his kit. correct me on any points if you think im wrong, and again thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

AuroramancerJan 2, 20161 votes

Of all the things to change on his kit that aren't "necessary" to his play pattern, I think Spear Shot (Q) should be the first candidate to go away.

It's targeted, has very little interaction, is mana inefficient compared to Heartseeker Strike based on the damage dealt, and doesn't really add to Pantheon's thematic.

I don't know what I'd replace Spear Shot with, because that would have to be dependent on what role/thematic Pantheon would be pushed into.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 1, 20162 votes

I think blocking could be really cool, but it needs to be done right. Negating all damage from all sources is too strong. Maybe it just increases his armor and MR by an ungodly amount?

RalanrJan 1, 20161 votes

His passive is really unique, please don't suggest giving him something similar to Wukong or Poppy in which they increase resistances.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 1, 20161 votes

Well, I wouldn't want it to be passive. The OP is suggesting a block mechanic. Just brainstorming.

My Name DaveJan 1, 20161 votes

either that or he could store up a shield over time that absorbs damage until its depleted (whenever activated)and after being charged up to a quarter maybe? it will block the full damage of the next attack even if it would deplete the bar.

Mecha MaIphiteJan 1, 20162 votes

I would be interested if they made it so he could go into a phalanx stance that doubles his hitbox and resistances, but decreased his movespeed and damage significantly. Projectiles that normally pass through units would also stop at him. It fits with the idea of him being a Spartan-esque warrior, and would also let him be more useful to his team later on.

My Name DaveJan 1, 20161 votes

oooh that would be cool, and using abilities would stop it right?