I think Ashe needs a slightly faster move speed.

Atuko·Mar 9, 2015·58 votes·3,193 views

She currently can't kite anything due to everything usually being faster than her or due to them just being able to dash onto her and kill her.

78 Comments

HamburgerJuniorMar 9, 20154 votes

Ashe is a dead champion and with the release of Kalista, always will be unless she gets a much needed rework. Her kit is old and terrible. While yeah, if somehow the oppositions botlane didn't kill you twice before second blue spawned for free without leaving bot lane you can potentially carry a game. But literally, Kalista does all the same things, but infinitely better in every regard than ashes kit.

Ark Angel HFBMar 9, 201525 votes

{quoted}

Ashe is a dead champion and with the release of Kalista, always will be unless she gets a much needed rework. Her kit is old and terrible. While yeah, if somehow the oppositions botlane didn't kill you twice before second blue spawned for free without leaving bot lane you can potentially carry a game. But literally, Kalista does all the same things, but infinitely better in every regard than ashes kit.

Her kit isn't bad... the newer kits are over loaded.

XtremeyMar 9, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Angel HFB,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAoFbxyj,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-09T02:00:12.380+0000)

Her kit isn't bad... the newer kits are over loaded.

the newer kits aren't overloaded.... the older kits are outdated

AnidanMar 9, 201513 votes

It's hard to look at some of the newer kits and not think "This champion could function perfectly fine by nipping a few buds here and there." The biggest offenders are usually CertainlyT champions, it seems. Usually, not always. Because Zyra is perfectly fine in that department, for example.

A lot of kits are outdated, yes, but a lot newer kits are definitely overloaded. Without a doubt. Ashe, for example, has 2 things she does well: kite, and initiate. Her steroid is extremely lackluster, she has no mobility, she has no survivability outside of her ult's stun and kiting, if the enemy can even be kited by her, she has no way to save teammates, short of, again, using the utility given to her, she can't shred tanks, and so on. Her vision spell is also pretty nice. She's overall, a good utility ADC.

Kalista has mobility in spades; can save a teammate with her ult, and her teammate could also then potentially go back in for a re-engage, or counter-engage and maybe die, but also potentially set up a kill, with the same ability no less; she has good lane control with her sentinels, making it harder to gank her without it being obvious (note: not impossible by any means), she has great kiting, a slow on her non-capped Rend, and %HP damage when she and her soulbound hit the same target.

When you compare someone like Ashe, who has a good kit for what her role is, to someone like Kalista who fulfills an unusually similar role, it becomes apparent that Kalista is packing a little more than is necessary to warrant saying that Kalista is a bit overloaded. Outdated kit or not, it's kind of bad.

However, Ashe does have the advantage of not needing to be conjoined to her soulbound like some sort of parasitic twin to get her full kit. Not that that seems to make Kalista much weaker when she's alone.

EedatMar 9, 20151 votes

What do?

http://i.imgur.com/9WfyWIu.jpg

LankPantsMar 9, 20155 votes

Try not looking at win rates in isolation as if they're the be-all and end-all.

Several champs who have been completely broken had win rates well bellow 50%. Remember when LB had her silence? She was completely broken by every metric sans win rate, with a win rate that hovered around 43-45%, I'm fairly sure her win rate has even (paradoxically) rose a little since her silence was removed.

Just the fact that a champ can be nerfed and have their win rate improve from it shows how unreliable win rate is as a measurement of power.

voidterror1Mar 9, 20152 votes

Not to mention that a "win" on a less-played champ means more than a "win" on a more popular champ. I think it's funny when people look at statistics in general as if they are impossible to bend in any direction.

Sona PingMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Usually, not always. Because Zyra is perfectly fine in that department, for example.

Yes, Zyra is fine. Also, Zyra wasn't made by CTD. Zyra was created by Skribbles.

AnidanMar 10, 20151 votes

She wasn't? Oh, my bad. If that is the case then I'm not sure where I got the information that he was the creator. Sorry about my false information in that case. I could swear CTD was involved somehow, though.

JustMyBassCannonMar 9, 20154 votes

For a "dead" champion, Ashe still consistently plays with a 50/50 win rate at all levels of play in League. Right now, she's at a 6.6% pick rate and over 51% win rate, actually.

VDc0zCqe0wMar 9, 20156 votes

{quoted}

For a "dead" champion, Ashe still consistently plays with a 50/50 win rate at all levels of play in League. Right now, she's at a 6.6% pick rate and over 51% win rate, actually.

the day people will understand winrates don't matter a fuck, we will all have a way more balanced game

where are my nerfs to Heimerdinger? that bastard with 57% winrate

JustMyBassCannonMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

the day people will understand winrates don't matter a fuck, we will all have a way more balanced game

Win rates don't dictate balance, but they do matter. So does pick rate and ban rate. These are factors that can help gauge balance.

Ashe has been within 2% of a 50/50 win rate for four years, regardless of meta shifts, buffs and nerfs (both direct and indirect), from Bronze to Platinum. Diamond and above has more fluctuation due to a smaller pool. Her pick rate has been within the 2-10% range over that same period of time. I can't remember ever seeing Ashe go over a 1% ban rate, but it could have happened at one point.

These factors point to a champion being balanced without being overwhelming. While I and everyone else and all of their pets wish she had a less boring passive, Ashe really isn't in a bad place balance-wise. She's not as flashy or complex as newer champions, but simplicity =/= weakness.

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

You mean "that bastard" who sits at a turret spamming his own and being a total sissybitch?

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

Okay... item 3153 : gives Lifesteal, AS and AD item 3252 : More speed and AS item 3087 : AS, Crit Strike and move speed item 3031 : massive Critstrike and AD item 3072 : temp. shield and more AD/Lifesteal item 3085 : massive AS and more arrows per attack. So that's not an OP build?

HamburgerJuniorMar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Okay... : gives Lifesteal, AS and AD : More speed and AS : AS, Crit Strike and move speed : massive Critstrike and AD : temp. shield and more AD/Lifesteal : massive AS and more arrows per attack. So that's not an OP build?

Yeah, it's great. You know who that same exact build would be 3 times as potent on? Kallista.

RoyaiChaosMar 9, 20154 votes

It would be cool if she got a very very tine ms boost every time she crit.

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

dude... MASTERYS.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20152 votes

Isn't Frenzy an attack speed boost on crit? Or did they change it?

flibitydooMar 9, 20154 votes

If you really wanted to improve her kiting, you would reduce her attack point (when she fires her auto) to that of caitlyn's level.

Where you can right click and instantly fire an auto at the target rather than wait for a slow wind up animation before firing the shot.

That being said, Ashe's kiting is still pretty strong when her W is used, given how large a range her W has.

Kalista can kite, but the issue is that she needs a lot of attackspeed or shes going to get killed when she has to stand still for 1 second firing an auto attack (and building up too much attackspeed will mean no damage).

1st HanarSpectreMar 9, 20154 votes

I think it's funny that people complain about mobility all day, but then conveniently forget that Ashe is the reason that Riot started giving gap closer to everything in the first place.

KidSpectreMar 9, 20153 votes

item 3282 item 3046 item 3087 item 3078 item 3153 item 3142
Am I fast enough yet?

VDc0zCqe0wMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Am I fast enough yet?

boots of swiftness on adc lmao, bronze?

no LW no IE, stop trolling ty

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

item 3252 item 3046 item 3091 item 3085 item 3153 item 3031 Run faster than my AA, suckers.

WolfBVMar 9, 20153 votes

Maybe give her +5-10 more base MS?

blueberrypancakeMar 9, 20151 votes

KITING OVERLOAD

Maybe add a Lulu, Karma, and Kayle to the mix

JevelFaithfulMar 9, 20151 votes

BUt the sad thing is that it probably would only make her "competitive" considering everything in the game can ignore kiting on a cooldown (I'm talking gapcloser). And ashe actually has to avoid damage by kiting. You then have an adc whose main defense can be ignored by over half the cast.

Yuki AkumaMar 9, 20152 votes

They could make it so her slow also effects the range of dashes.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 201510 votes

They could make it so every slow affects the range of dashes.

DeusVultMar 9, 20151 votes

item 3070 LeeSin

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

Both of you are dumb. First off, that would need a IMMIDEAT recoding of every dash or rush (including Rek'Sais' ult), and would INTENTIONALY screw over MANY OTHER CHAMPS Lucian is nerfed and buffed to shit, but his dash is only about 2x the range of Flash, then Ahri would still kick ass, Malphite and Alistar would have issues, and goddamn Riven would lose all of her usefulness. Second, Slow is a stat effect, and is not unique to Ashe. Names are unique, not the effect (unless it's realy goddamn complex). Third, they have Slow stat effect where they want it. And everybody'll say "good thinking, bad idea." Finaly, the sheer amount of recoding needed for that MASSIVE change would take about 12-13 patches. You thought the new rift took a long time? Some champs have specialized slows as well. Oh, and Azir would be stupid OP, getting the same treatment to anyone else in ranked with goddamn ban rate; 100% on ANYONE WITH A SLOW, not to mention item 3022 has a slow. BAD FUCKING IDEA.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20152 votes

I'm aware of why they haven't done them yet, but that's not to say it would be impossible to do so. I don't even know if it is the best solution, but all I'm expressing is the same (commonly-seen on these boards) dislike of mobility creep. Something has to change.

I love playing immobile mages. Viktors, Malzahars, Anivias. But as Riot slowly phases out point-and-click CC (bye old Sion and Veigar, and Taric's not far behind in the rework department, I hear), dashes become more and more unhealthy. A champion who can dash doesn't have to worry about positioning as much as an immobile mage does. And why? What do they give up? Supposedly CC, though LeeSin Leblanc Kalista have some pretty hefty slows (or in Leblanc's case, a snare with a longer leash range than all of Brand's spells).

Kalista is just the final nail in the coffin, really. As long as she has free mobility as her passive, that procs on every single auto-attack, she's going to be a huge bugbear for Riot's balance team.

jjookkeerrMar 9, 20152 votes

she needs damage

AnidanMar 9, 20159 votes

Don't give her damage. If her niche isn't damage, then don't try to fill it with such. She's a utility ADC, and because of that, adding damage can be very hazardous. Adding damage sounds good in theory, but it'd end poorly. Simply adding damage also does not solve her core issues. Besides, the only way you can really add damage to Ashe is by improving the passive. You can't really put it anywhere else.

What I'd like is to also see W's cone of arrows sped up a little, so you could poke in lane a little easier, which would slightly satisfy adding damage indirectly, and allow you to apply your slows more easily on targets farther away. Then maybe a small MS increase, like 5-10. I don't know what doing much more to her would do and I'm not a professional at balancing.

IcyPepperMar 9, 20155 votes

LeeSin what if her ult had 200% bonus ad scaling.

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

-_- no.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20151 votes

Or really ANY AD scaling on her ult.

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Don't give her damage. If her niche isn't damage, then don't try to fill it with such. She's a utility ADC, and because of that, adding damage can be very hazardous. Adding damage sounds good in theory, but it'd end poorly. Simply adding damage also does not solve her core issues. Besides, the only way you can really add damage to Ashe is by improving the passive. You can't really put it anywhere else.

THANKYOU FOR POINTING IT OUT! it's like saying Jinx needs more scale on her W's AD scaling.

ProfDrDeathMar 9, 20152 votes

Ashe consistently has a over 52% winrate over the last five patches, with a playrate of 3-4%. That's actually pretty decent.

Also, you don't want faster MS - almost none of the longer-ranged ADCs has over 325 (in fact, the only ones with over 550 range and more than 325 MS are Twitch and Varus). MS is one of the most deceptively powerful stats, especially on a long-ranged champion.

DivewingMar 9, 20152 votes

I agree with her not needing/wanting more MS. But 3-4% playrate is probs why shes 52% win rate, shes not completely useless and super underplayed, so often times she overlooked as a viable threat until it's too late, and is usually played solely by people who either main or play her often (or main adc at least)

VDc0zCqe0wMar 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Ashe consistently has a over 52% winrate over the last five patches, with a playrate of 3-4%. That's actually pretty decent.

Also, you don't want faster MS - almost none of the longer-ranged ADCs has over 325 (in fact, the only ones with over 550 range and more than 325 MS are Twitch and Varus). MS is one of the most deceptively powerful stats, especially on a long-ranged champion.

oh my fucking goddamn of true hell and fire

WINRATES DON'T MATTER A SHIT

BUFF Lee Sin, buff Zed, nerf Heimerdinger, nerf Karthus

am i doing it right?

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

Heh... Cait with goddamn starting 590 MS... and gets boots of mobility...

TourianMar 9, 20151 votes

Ashe is really strong right now actually, lol. After Lucian got hit and Corki her low mobility isn't as big of a risk. Rush Bloothirster. Leave Q on. ???? PROFIT!

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Leave Q on. ???? PROFIT!" No mana while you're being chased = Gibbed. Q costs 8 Mana a shot. Not much untill you have goddamn stupid-fast attacking.

TourianMar 9, 20151 votes

That's why I said rush the Bloothirster man. Restore mana with q perma on.

rampaging poetMar 10, 20151 votes

I assume you meant Essence Reaver?

TourianMar 10, 20151 votes

Fun fact: Search "Bloothirster" next time you're in the item menu in game :)

bluegolisanoMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She currently can't kite anything due to everything usually being faster than her or due to them just being able to dash onto her and kill her.

First off, item 3006 w/Furor Second, no. Third, no. Forth, WHY DO YOU THINK SHE HAS HER Q!?!

AtukoMar 9, 20153 votes

EVERYONE else has boots as well.
Even with her Q, she still can't kite due to mobility abilities completely nullifying her kiting, or everyone being faster than her.
Her AA animation takes a while, which is a huge freaking pain when trying to orb-walk, slowing her down as well.

Yiffed By VeigarMar 9, 20151 votes

I think what Ashe needs is a whole new kit, as an ADC she sucks, no mobility and only 2 damage based skills and only one of them escalates with AD, with a really useless pasive, as an adc why in the hell would you want not to attack only to get rewarded with a crtiticall hit, at least they must increase the critical damage passibly... Just maybe.

LarasoMar 10, 20151 votes

Let's get real here, if you're having trouble kiting, +5 or +10 movespeed isn't going to fix anything. It's a nice thought but if she can't even kite something with a 35% slow on every auto attack then her base movement speed isn't the problem.