ADC's: Why you should nerf Vayne and leave the rest pretty untouched

For Carthage··68 votes·4,469 views

So Riot's said this a couple of times:

"Vayne rose to prominence because we nerfed all other ADC's to be less viable while Vayne was untouched, putting her at the top."

So what Riot's been thinking is that they need to rebuff ADC's.

They don't. And I can explain precisely why.

Currently we're in the teamfight meta - the reason ADC's were nerfed was because they became so aggressively strong that they were basically 1v1'ing everyone and winning. But why suddenly, out of nowhere, would they just start roflstomping their way through entire teams? Only a few had received buffs or changes within that time frame, so what gives?

Well, let's take a look at where they were coming fresh out of with zero changes - the assassin meta, the time period where being an ADC was probably the worst thing to ever be because one wrong move and you popped like a balloon in a tack factory. ADC's had to be a bit stronger in this meta because if they weren't, they were going to be useless, which would translate to weeeeeeeeeeee assassins in every lane yeah woohoo. And good god is that just a nightmare (I've played against that team - while eventually they could be beaten, the game was so unenjoyable we just didn't).

Well, jump forward to season 5 and find the teamfight meta where all assassins suddenly receive a massive nerf - suddenly, ADC's are exploding. Why? Because they weren't touched during that time period. So all the nerfs since then have basically been fixing that rise in strength because once it started becoming about the teamplay rather than blowing up the enemy carries as quickly as possible, the power all shifted to ADC's as teams desperately build to peel for them and put all their faith and damage in them. And boy could they dish it out.

ADC's don't need buffs by and large because they're starting to function as they really should - they shouldn't be able to 1v1 their way out of situations, but with teamwork they wind up pumping out the most damage. No, Jinx should not be able to sit there with her minigun and kill a J4 point-blank who has unleashed his whole combo and has itemized correctly. No, Vayne should not be able to 1v1 literally everyone in the game and come out victorious. It's like having a catapult in Civilization - it's the only way you're going to do major damage to a city, but there's no way that the enemy shouldn't be able to destroy it if you leave it just sitting there by itself in the open.

So that's why you don't need to buff the other ADC's to match Vayne or Jinx - because they're working as intended late-game. They're high-damage but have an equal vulnerability, and that's how it's meant to be. Granted, a couple (like Miss Fortune) may need some buffs to their later game, and a couple (like Twitch) may need their laning phase tweaked up a bit to be able to even make it to their late-game ever. But other than that, all you have to do is bring Vayne down from her damn pedestal and probably take a look at Jinx as well. Stop dancing around the issue as if ADC's are shit and realize that the only reason most of them are bad is because two or three are so heavily dominant in their laning phase that it's impossible to see the others' potential since they just can't match up.

129 Comments

ABlueQuaker15 votes

Correction. AD Carries should be able to 1v1 provided they can maintain their Range Advantage. AD Carries are effective because they have 500+ Range. Once that gap is closed, or if Range isn't a factor (i.e. other Ranged Champions), they become incredibly vulnerable. They don't have the defence mechanisms that Melee Carries have. If they can't maintain the gap between Ranged and Melee, then they're always going to be in trouble.

There are few AD Carries who could use some love, but that's mainly to their Early and Mid games. The likes of Ezreal, Graves and Lucian are all AD Carries who have, historically, been able to punish Vayne's Early-to-Mid game.

Rew7113 votes

Urgot I'll stay at a safe 425 range away from any and all other ranged champs. Luckily, if they get close, I can E up to 2 of them. :'D

xxxMadLionxxx4 votes

Up-voting to hear what people think.

I'm not sure where riot stands on Vayne, but she has insane defense. Reason is, in team fights, when she gets focused, she enters stealth, forcing the enemy to engage someone else, or do nothing while waiting for her to re-appear.

My problem is Lucian compared to Vayne. Yes Lucian has poke, but it is only good in lane. Outside of lane Lucian falls off really badly. Now riot nerfed his range to 500 and seem to intend to keep it that way. Simply because he has a dash that should keep him safe. The thing is, even when I dash away, I still die as ppl like Yi are too fast and stick on me. Ppl like Elise have targeted dash and stick on me where as Vayne has much better disengage tools.

Now I'm not saying give Lucian stealth, but if riot wants him that close to combat, then a short range dash/ speed buff from his W is not enough.

I know you going to say, what about immobile ADCs. Ash has a stun/slow, Varus has snare/slow. Kog has good range/poke and possible access to zhonyas. MF, could use some help on her ult as it should work as a deterrent but does so little damage. I think Twich is fine as he can position himself well and has huge range from ult.

disregardable3 votes

Don't even have to read it. It's "because I main top lane or jungle".

I don't understand why top laners and jungles can't accept that ADCs should counter them.

Assassins and mages counter ADCs by bursting them. Tanks and bruisers counter assassins and mages by surviving their burst and CCing/DoTing them. ADCs counter tanks and bruisers with their sustained damage to get down their defenses and keep range.

It's not "I main tanky bruisers so I get to beat everyone!". It's rock-paper-scissors.

Expecting someone to be completely useless if their team doesn't pay attention to them isn't just stupid, it's unfun game design. If your team decides you're worthless and won't help you, you should still have a reason to not AFK. There should be more to this game than "Don't die, group, and your team will win for you." I completely agree that if you get in range of an early-game ADC, they should die. But when it's late game with their flash, LW, and BT, it's a different story.

TurquoiseYoshi26 votes

The number 1 thing that takes extreme credibility away from your argument is that you didn't read it. That's just dumb.

disregardable2 votes

I did read it after I typed and posted that. Everything applied, didn't need any editing. The people that ADCs counter are the only ones that say ADCs should be useless.

TurquoiseYoshi9 votes

When did he say ADCs should be useless? He only said that Vayne needs to be nerfed, and all other ADCs stay as-is.

disregardable3 votes

they shouldn't be able to 1v1

right there.

ADCs build straight damage. If they aren't able to 1v1 anyone, there'd be something extremely wrong with them.

TurquoiseYoshi8 votes

They build straight damage, making them extremely squishy. If they are able to 1v1 someone, it has to be in the moment while they still have a range advantage. If they get CC'd in a 1v1, they're dead.

disregardable3 votes

Sure, if it's by Vel'Koz. Buf if your warrior+item 3071 only damage items j4 is stupid enough to blow his whole combo to 1v1 a 5 item adc, he deserves to die. You can't expect to out DoT a full build marksman, and it's not like he's going to burst you with only 190 AD.*

*number edited

TurquoiseYoshi7 votes

He'll still do nearly True Damage with how little the ADC builds resistances.

disregardable1 votes

Did the math. His full combo does something like 1400-1500 damage before armor at 190 AD*. Jinx has 1900 base health level 18. Plus she's going to have either bork (+10% of your health for her) or the BT shield.

*numbers edited

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

That's at Level 18, an amazing time in the game for Jinx. In a midgame scenario, it's a lot closer to a kill.

disregardable1 votes

Remember that part where I said "5 item ADC"? Yeah. That implied late game.

For Carthage4 votes

I'm just going to point out what's wrong with your assertion:

Jarvan has a .75 duration knockup.

We're also factoring in that, if he's not building straight damage, he has a large amount of armor which can include both Thorn and/or Frozen Heart.

We can also factor in that BC will reduce cooldowns by 20%, so he can knock Jinx up again within a short amount of time.

We can also factor in that BC gives armor shredding and his E ups his AS. His Q also shreds armor.

In short, if a full-squish Jinx is just sitting there saying "Come at me" to a J4, then there's not a way in hell that she can 1v1 because he was meant to take out people like that. Again, it's a catapult - massive damage, extremely vulnerable.

I also don't particularly main a role, thanks. I jump around all the time. I'm speaking from playing MF and averaging 15/6/10 - I don't play her every single game, no. But I consistently did the most damage and had the most kill participation as what is hailed as the worst ADC in the game right now in nearly every game with her. And if she's the worst - if I'm dominating with the worst ADC in the game, then how can you call ADC's the "weakest and most impactful role"? There's a reason they're called the "Attack Damage Carry" role - because they carry their damage. But they're weak early game because having one role clearly dominant to every other role would mean that they'd just be the meta - they'd be in every role doing everything because they'd just be better. The reason people think they're weak is because they get destroyed by themselves and that's how it's supposed to be.

Look at it this way: You're playing Rome: Total War. You have nothing but an army of archers. Why are you getting pissed when the enemy cavalry mow you all down in seconds? You should have a spear unit - a frontline - to protect them so they can wreak havoc. Otherwise, basically anyone could kill them.

Biffolo1 votes

To be fair, catapults are really iffy in civ to begin with XD. You can just use composites for that stage of the game, or the battering ram of doom if you are the huns.

Biffolo1 votes

Idk, I also play with the no quitter set of rules the most, which is Pangaea, (with a slightly modified script to reduce chokes and being locked in by mountain ranges) also on quick with 6 people. Generally if you beeline education, you will only have composites and pikes, while they will have longswords, c-bows and trebuchets. They also probably went wide early if they are doing this, meaning it's pretty rare for you to keep up with it. Also, if others realize you are going the science route, then you are going 2 get multiple people attacking you.

LordGeovanni1 votes

its because they build straight damage they shouldn't be able to beat the guy who has both damage and defense

disregardable1 votes

yeah, that's why Fiora is doing so badly right now ;)

Biffolo1 votes

Her title is literally the grand duelist. She is designed to be able to kill you, tank or squishy.

disregardable2 votes

Vayne's title is "The Night Hunter". She's designed to pursue you, hunt you down, condemn you, and kill you. Tank or squishy.

Biffolo1 votes

Ok? Did I ever state otherwise? Vayne is an excellent duelist as well, I don't think anyone can dispute that. She compensates by having no real waveclear.

disregardable1 votes

Summary of the conversation:

The point of this thread is to saying to nerf vayne and make sure no ADCs can 1v1 anyone.

I said the fact that she builds damage means she should be able to 1v1 others.

Someone then said that no one that builds straight damage should be able to 1v1 anyone.

I then pointed to Fiora's success building straight damage.

You then said her kit design was intended for her to be able to 1v1 everyone.

I then pointed out that Vayne's kit design ALSO is intended to 1v1 everyone, so it would not make sense for her to be nerfed to not be able to 1v1 people (nor does it make sense for any other ADC).

Biffolo1 votes

And I never said it would be. I never stated my stance for or against vayne nerfs, I only discussed fiora.

disregardable1 votes

If you want to talk about Fiora, maybe go to a thread that is about Fiora, not one about Vayne/ADC health.

._.

Biffolo1 votes

Or I can go to the comment that is about fiora on the vayne thread, thus bringing it into relevancy.

IRicochet Runner1 votes

lol haters gonna hate

LordGeovanni1 votes

she shouldnt have that burst along with that sustained damage but riot doesnt like anything that doesnt make things feel flashy and makes abunch of guys go i want to try do that. like i said should riot inst really big on balance they want plays that they can feature and make you want to go i want to buy that champ now and if you have the rp you drop it on them

LordGeovanni1 votes

other unbalanced characters dont justify your unbalanced characters

BluePolarizer3 votes

My idea of ADC is like artillery.

An artillery cannon can kill anything that moves on the ground at a distance, basically. But it doesn't do shit against a special forces guy with a knife and sniper rifle if they can close the distance.

Now what we have in Vayne is someone with the mobility of a special forces soldier and firepower of artillery which is ridiculous.

Shosuko1 votes

That's a bad analogy though, adc have lower range than many dashes. If an adc could hit a person outside of their dash range and safely kite a player you'd be right, but every champ with a dash is going to close that range. Even champs without instant dashes like Udyr can buy botrk to enhance their dash, and once they close the gap the job is done, adc dead.

BluePolarizer6 votes

Have you ever played with high elo ADCs? Have you played when Caitlyn was the go-to ADC bot lane? That's exactly what you did: stay far back and unload damage. The counterplay was also exactly that: get in her face. If you could reach Caitlyn with Udyr, she's dead, but you'll never reach her without flash unless she was a mindless potato. That's exactly how Jinx and Kog play right now which is why despite their win rates, nobody says anything about them. The counterplay is clear: get in their face. But you can't get in Vayne's face. She can literally stand there and auto you to death if she felt like it (but won't since she has tumble so she can take 0 damage instead).

Shosuko1 votes

Except Caitlyn can do that because she is supposed to be the sniper. This is not a common trait among ADC's. Plus while Cait could do that, she could only do that because she is unique in having multiple stuns and a dash + slow. Every ADC isn't Caitlyn, nor should every ADC be her.

BluePolarizer2 votes

lolwut... you can easily do the same with Jinx, Ashe, Kog, Varus, Ezreal or any other long range ADC. The only ADCs where you have to dive in are Lucian and Corki, but they have burst so if you survive their burst, they're just as vulnerable as other ADCs. Meanwhile Vayne has the highest sustained damage in the game (equal to Master Yi) while being ranged and having self peel. If Master Yi was ranged he'd be OP. Well Vayne is basically ranged Master Yi.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Udyr has to find a way to get through the team protecting her.

In a 1v1 no ADC should be able to kill, let alone survive, someone like Udyr. That's why Vayne is poor design.

ARequestOfDeath1 votes

i know a few that can do it but they are not ranged(adc is not ranged it is attack damage carry not ranged attack damage carry) Rengar Yasuo MasterYi Maokai Aatrox Tryndamere

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Maokai, what...

CubedJustice1 votes

I mean, he can definitely get back to the ADC. He won't do anything while there, but still.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

My issue is more with him being listed as an attack damage carry, just because he has the highest base AD in the game doesn't mean he's meant to be built like Yi.

CubedJustice1 votes

Yeah, that's pretty silly.

Learning moment2 votes

people are crying about adc's being weak.... and instead of buffing other adc's you want to nerf vayne....k.

LankPants11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Learning moment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nh5xoigg,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-09-13T13:55:00.302+0000)

people are crying about adc's being weak.... and instead of buffing other adc's you want to nerf vayne....k.

Why do you think ADCs are weak? They're the only class that's 100% needed when building a team.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think ADCs are weak? They're the only class that's 100% needed when building a team.

They are by far the least impactful role in the whole game and the most unfun for sure.

You need goalkeepers in football too, doesn't change the fact that, for most people, it's a shitty role, the most unforgiving, unfun and the one with least impact.

ADCs right now are tower-destroying bots, that's their whole impact on the whole game: destroying towers.

LankPants3 votes

You need goalkeepers in football too, doesn't change the fact that, for most people, it's a shitty role, the most unforgiving, unfun and the one with least impact.

Even you example is bad. The goalkeeper has the most impact on a game. Without a goalkeeper football games would turn into huge clusterfucks where both teams scored upwards of ten goals, you can remove any other player from the field and it has far less effect on the game.

What's more there's actually no binding rule that says you must have a goalkeeper, just as with ADC. People run it because the rules allow for it and it's the optimal strategy, just like with ADC.

If ADCs or goalkeepers were actually low impact to the game as you suggest people just wouldn't use them. If they're unfun is you're personal opinion and if you do find them unfun there's 4 other roles for you to learn.

VDc0zCqe0w3 votes

{quoted}

Even you example is bad. The goalkeeper has the most impact on a game. Without a goalkeeper football games would turn into huge clusterfucks where both teams scored upwards of ten goals, you can remove any other player from the field and it has far less effect on the game.

Goalkeepers don't score goals, that's the problem, you can be the most godlike goalkeeper ever but if your team is shit you will lose the game: this is the same thing that happens with ADCs

Funnily enough, this WAS the thing that happened with the support role in S2-S3, now they have a huge impact, way way more impact than ADCs

Partholonian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nh5xoigg,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-14T08:38:50.415+0000)

Goalkeepers don't score goals, that's the problem, you can be the most godlike goalkeeper ever but if your team is shit you will lose the game: this is the same thing that happens with ADCs

Goalkeepers don't score goals, they prevent goals. Which turns out to be really powerful, way more powerful than having another goal-scorer on the field.

I don't see how your example translates to LoL though, since the objective of LoL is to destroy buildings, which is the exact thing that ADCs, as a class, specialize in. Maybe you get distracted by the kill scores? Aside from the fact that ADCs can clean up fights and get plenty of kills (and I'm pretty sure are the most likely to get pentakills), kills don't win the game, objective taking does. Objective taking even snowballs teams harder than kills do.

Silents4292 votes

I actually don't think they are 100% needed honestly, New Mordekaiser, you know, issues aside sort of proves you don't need a ranged carry for winning.

I've also had crazy bot lanes like XinZhao and Pantheon

Or

Nautilus and Zyra

With great success.

I think it's mostly just "Well it's been this way for years, it must be needed"

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

I actually don't think they are 100% needed honestly, New Mordekaiser, you know, issues aside sort of proves you don't need a ranged carry for winning.

Only if people actually win with him, against skilled opposition. I'll be interested to see if that happens, but until then, it doesn't prove anything.

Silents4291 votes

But people have been winning with him, and other non ranged carries bot for years now.

Pale Pirate11 votes

Assassin meta: OMFG ADCS ARE USELESS THEY GET DELETED INSTANTLY Tank meta: WTF TANKS TAKE NO DAMAGE AND ALSO KILL ME BEFORE I CAN REACT New ap items: MAGES KILL ME IN 0.1 SECONDS WTF RIOT

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