Can we make it so Ryze's snare cannot be chained onto you for 12 seconds.

Ñapoleoni·Jun 7, 2015·16 votes·46,553 views

I'm all for Ryze being viable, but when your getting all-inned at level 3 in your own minion wave, something has to change.

79 Comments

RiotMeddlerJun 7, 201516 votes

We're working on some Ryze changes at the moment, aimed particularly at reducing his ability to chain root. Odds are that'll involve adjustments to CDs and damage numbers on his passive and basic spells, though we're still talking through the exact details.

atomicwitJun 7, 201511 votes

I just hope Riot keeps in mind that damage is almost all Ryze has. He doesn't have the inherent tankiness of a Mundo, the amazing CC/peel and utility of a Mao, the wonderful TP ganks of a Hecarim, the infinite sustain and pushing power of a Vlad etc. He has windows of extremely high damage (that people aren't used to) and needs time to scale too - as well as a lot of mana.

DengedenJun 7, 20154 votes

Er, you couldn't be more wrong. His core build turns him into a tanky AP bruiser. His TPs are sub-par, true but his flexibility in terms of itemization makes him great late game.

Casual GarbageJun 7, 20158 votes

how does he need time to scale when you can all in lvl 3 on a minion wave? lmao

atomicwitJun 7, 20156 votes

That's cheese vs clueless opponents not actual power. Are you going to say Tryndamere is good early too because he can all-in level 2 with full Fury?

Kivvi BirdJul 6, 20151 votes

Tryndamer is a early game high dmg melee champ. Ryze is a late game scaling high dmg ranged perma rooting champ.

atomicwitJul 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kivvi Bird,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nTgKP4EU,comment-id=00040001000100010000,timestamp=2015-07-06T19:49:16.332+0000)

Tryndamer is a early game high dmg melee champ. Ryze is a late game scaling high dmg ranged perma rooting champ.

That's false on so many levels. He can cheese early but he isn't strong at that point except very conditionally like with full fury. He really shines late-game as a split-pushing monster which can't be dueled.

YourSh4dowJun 7, 20159 votes

easy solution ... insert debuff target cant be rooted again for X seconds after using rune prison. dmg from it can be still be applied problem solved bye bye.

KittieprydeJun 7, 20152 votes

Easier solution, root has a CD that changes with rank (14 --> 22/20/18/16/14), now increases to 6-5 spell casts from 3 spell casts to recast root at early levels.

VarkreyJun 7, 20151 votes

Easy fix^

Can still do it at lvl 9 when usually your lane has been decided and you're moving on to teamfights.

KittieprydeJun 7, 20151 votes

True, your damage would just be lower, leveling prison first and only 2 ranks in q. But a level 9 power spike is so much manageable than a level 3 power spike.

SiytherJun 7, 20153 votes

but then he would be useless again

GoBardInThePaintJun 7, 20152 votes

Or just add diminishing returns to his W.

Ace Access Jun 7, 20155 votes

don't go overboard with his nerfs

RisenDarkKnightJun 7, 20151 votes

Please remember how awful he was in terms of winrate before this patch. Don't nerf him across the board. Just lowering root duration and/or cooldown should be enough to return him to a more balanced state.

magzillasJun 7, 20153 votes

I'm sorry, but I'm really curious: was there not one person at Riot who realized the chain-rooting potential with his passive? Or was it known, but for some reason thought that keeping someone rooted for basically 6 seconds on a targeted basis wouldn't cause any problems?

WubetJun 7, 20151 votes

Why not give him the Kennen treatment? Make it so roots after the first last a lot less.

Arctic WolfJun 7, 20151 votes

2 quick suggestions:

Diminishing returns on rooting the same enemy (others have suggested like Kennen's stun, but it might need to be more severe) reasoning: you know why
Reduce the size/duration of the shield he gets from his passive reasoning: The shield is very underrated as it isn't nearly as annoying as his ability to perma-stun, but honestly it is just as big of a problem as if he didn't survive as long as he can (because of that shield) he couldn't perma-stun as long.

CypherousAug 23, 20151 votes

Any update to this middler?

Just had a game with ryze chain rooting, are you actually going to fix this or are you literally just all talk?

RiotRiotRepertoirJun 7, 201510 votes

I have changes going through testing that generally reduce the uptime and chain cast nature of Rune Prison, particularly in the early and mid game. The changes in testing (which should be announced soon) address the issue via a combination of tweaks to Rune Prison's duration when maxed, as well as the cadence at which it can be cast during the passive in the earlier parts of the game specifically. I'm pretty okay with him getting off two Rune Prison casts in the early part of the game during his passive, but the current 4-5 is just overkill at this point in the game. Additionally, by isolating any chain cast cases to later phases in the game, opponents should have more reasonable options against Ryze, whether that be grouping (getting help from allies), investing in tenacity, or just continuing to play around the windows his passive provides.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 7, 20152 votes

I'm going to assume this has something to do with Gamsu's one-on-one kill against Seraph earlier. Y'know, THIS.

Waifu ShinobuJun 7, 20152 votes

You linked it from the beginning. The instance being referred to is HERE

Lynbro SenpaiJun 7, 20155 votes

It was actually brought to light by FNC Huni's solo kill on ROC Steve's Maokai in Day 1 of the EU LCS, but ya, same issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNFM_-f5nGM

TurquoiseYoshiJun 7, 20152 votes

Except Gamsu's was better because he didn't have to use Flash. :D

Iota ThetaJun 8, 20151 votes

Don't forget Huni, playing as Cho'Gath, beat Gambit Gaming's Cabochard, who was playing as Ryze, the very next day.

Lynbro SenpaiJun 9, 20151 votes

Yup, Cho'Gath will always be the anti-caster counter champion. Doesn't make Ryze's chain-snaring any less disgusting to play against though :P

lordnoudaJun 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to assume this has something to do with Gamsu's one-on-one kill against Seraph earlier. Y'know, THIS.

or maybe that huni destroyed the sk out of top lane with him

Earl EulrichJun 8, 20151 votes

you could mention that fnatic actually beat a Ryze aswell...it´s not like the champ has no weaknesses. So far about every win for Ryze occured when he was matched vs maokai, as he can´t trade well vs ryze.

Ash927Jun 7, 20152 votes

Have you considered applying a brief period of time after his passive pops where he can't gain stacks, like Gnar's rage bar? As it is now I never feel like I can go in on him in lane because his passive is always seconds away if he wants it to be. Even right after it ends, if I'm a bruiser and I jump on him, he just needs to survive his q cooldown to pop his passive again and start pumping out damage. Most top laners in my experience can't apply enough damage to win that trade.

Captain AishiJun 7, 20152 votes

that is so true, right now if you dash on ryze the moment his passive drops, you have 3 seconds before his passive is up again and you're perma rooted and dead :(

iamleburkJun 7, 20153 votes

what if you chaged his passive from spell cast to spell hit? that would still give him the oppurtunity to do crazy combos but make it much harder to do

Buttigieg 2020Jun 7, 20151 votes

Will these changes be done this or next patch?

EnderForHegemonJun 7, 20151 votes

How do you expect us to take competitive league of legends as anything other than a total joke when a case this bad makes it on stage and isn't fixed for weeks? Will Riot be annulling the results of this week's games?

Fun FestJun 8, 20151 votes

How does his passive provide "windows?" He only needs 1 stack to begin his combo.

Earl EulrichJun 8, 20151 votes

maybe take a look at e´s dmg vs bigger groups while his ult is running...it still is a tad overwhelming.

TotalwanabeJun 8, 20151 votes

he's fine has he since he still has the same weakness can't stick to a target when prison break, so if you nerf prison in anyway either buff is movement speed or target range of prison global. that should give them a reason to qq.

Mjolnir802Jun 8, 20151 votes

Have you considered giving Ryze's root a similar treatment to Kennen's Passive? After the first root, subsequent roots on the same target have reduced duration for a limited time. This would prevent the perma-locking, but still allow for the same damage output.

Woook3rJun 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have changes going through testing that generally reduce the uptime and chain cast nature of Rune Prison, particularly in the early and mid game. The changes in testing (which should be announced soon) address the issue via a combination of tweaks to Rune Prison's duration when maxed, as well as the cadence at which it can be cast during the passive in the earlier parts of the game specifically. I'm pretty okay with him getting off two Rune Prison casts in the early part of the game during his passive, but the current 4-5 is just overkill at this point in the game. Additionally, by isolating any chain cast cases to later phases in the game, opponents should have more reasonable options against Ryze, whether that be grouping (getting help from allies), investing in tenacity, or just continuing to play around the windows his passive provides.

why dont you make a reduced effectiveness for chain casts. Sort of like udyrs stun, but instead of being non applicable it can be shorter duration if you have already been rooted. So his targets can sort of slip away like water iin your hands.

EDIT: You can ignore this comment. It was impulsive. Im sure you know better.

WheatloafJun 7, 20158 votes

A level 3 all-in from Ryze can and will eat his entire mana pool. Either play the sustain game or all-in him first.

ErockandrollJun 7, 20156 votes

His Runic Prison can't affect the same target for 6 seconds. This would not completely butcher the runic Prison, but would prevent the Perma root.

Lord DusteonJun 7, 201511 votes

{quoted}

His Runic Prison can't affect the same target for 6 seconds. This would not completely butcher the runic Prison, but would prevent the Perma root.

Can there not be a change that moves "permanent snare" too "you get one snare and then nothing"? That's basically gutting in a few ways as A) it removes one of his damage spells for 6 seconds on a target, and B) it removes his only way to keep someone there for his combo. I'm all for nerfing his W's duration and chaining, as being frozen in place for 6 seconds as you get magic slapped isn't fun. But the way to do it should not be completely gutting the ability and his entire damage.

ErockandrollJun 7, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nTgKP4EU,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-06-07T03:19:11.039+0000)

Can there not be a change that moves "permanent snare" too "you get one snare and then nothing"? That's basically gutting in a few ways as A) it removes one of his damage spells for 6 seconds on a target, and B) it removes his only way to keep someone there for his combo. I'm all for nerfing his W's duration and chaining, as being frozen in place for 6 seconds as you get magic slapped isn't fun. But the way to do it should not be completely gutting the ability and his entire damage.

How about this then.

The Duration of the root is reduced by 35% if it affects the same target within a few seconds.

The other though I had was Just make the Root duration fixed at all levels. (such as at 1.25 from .75/1/1.25/1.5/1.75) The only Reason to Max Prison right away is because of the perma root. Though I'm less sure about this idea.

DefensiveJun 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

His Runic Prison can't affect the same target for 6 seconds. This would not completely butcher the runic Prison, but would prevent the Perma root.

Then he can still just cast the root on five different people in teamfights still. A good change but not enough I think.

NarasimhaJun 7, 20156 votes

How the actual hell does he pull that off at level 3? He doesn't have the mana to pull that off.

NVDaxJun 7, 20153 votes

This rework was such a bust.

The WhamboozlerJun 8, 20151 votes

Nearly ALL of the reworks have been busts. The only decent one I remember in the last year is Sion and that was only because NO ONE played old Sion to care that he was changed so drastically.

But will they change Ryze drastically? Nope. He's gotta stay a point and click spammer because of reasons.

GodalorJun 7, 20152 votes

Just to put this out here... People who try to play a tanky Ryze will be disappointed in how little damage they will do even when permasnaring an enemy. In the Rework, Ryze's manaratios got a general nerf while his AP ratios got buffed. Simultaneously, he get's 30% CDR from his kit. People who still try to build Frozen Heart or Spirit Visage will find out that they've been wasting their Money for stats which aren't beneficial for Ryze. Why?

Tankyness: since Ryze has been nerfed to be reliant on his passive to provide him with a window to deal damage, you'll want to deal as much damage as you can. Since your sustained damage is really low after your passive times out the tankyness is worth nothing apart from maybe giving your other carries a bit more time to deal damage. It wont keep you alive for long enough to get your passive again.
CDR: Ryze's Kit gives him enough CDR, so wasted money here.
Mana: Probably the only beneficial stat together with the Spirit Visage passive, which can also still be of use for Ryze, but since the manascalings generally got nerfed and his AP ratios got buffed, building AP seems a lot more beneficial as an offensive stat for Ryze.

These are probably also the reasons for the pros not building tanky on Ryze and the winrate of Frozen Heart and Spirit Visage being average while the winrates of AP items like Luden's Echo and Rabadon's are going through the roof.