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Let's Solve AD itemization problems: shiny new item and reworks

Ale non è male··3 votes·1,437 views

Quick Premise Actual AD itemization fails to accurately differentiate the items that are purposely designed to assassinate enemy squishies for AD assassins and the items that are purposedly designed to face bruisers/tanks, and also they don't take into account the difference between AD assassins that rely on AAs and AD assassins that rely on spells damage

Let's try to find solution for every class

But, first, we have to rework an intermediate item

item 3144 (REWORK) Bilgewater Cutlass = Long Sword + Long Sword + 500g = 1200g Life Steal 10% => REMOVED

P.S. As result of the change a Vampiric Scepter is added to item 3146 recipe without change in cost

Ok, now we can REALLY go

Assassin item for AD champs that rely on AAs

item 3142 (REWORK)

Youmuu's Ghostbalde = Bilgewater Cutlass (see above) + Serrated Dirk + Dagger + Dagger + 500g = 3400g

AD 65 -> 50 Cooldown Reduction +10% -> REMOVED AS + 25% -> ADDED Passive Unique: + 20 armor penetration Passive (NEW) Unique: Gain + 20% AS and + 15% MS upon inflicting physical damage to an enemy below 40% health for 3 seconds (15 seconds cooldown) Active Unique: Deals 10% of target champion's maximum Health (min 100) as physical damage, heals for the same amount, and steals 25% of the target's Movement Speed for 3 seconds. (550 range and 90 second cooldown)

Comment: The new stats fit more with what an AD assassin based on AA need. AS added as base stat and burst of damage on active, plus a stat boost when targeting a squishy, while losing some redundant stat that don't fit as much the bill like CDR

Assassin item for AD champs that rely on Spell damage

NEW New Assassin Dagger (temporary name)

New Assassin Dagger = item 3133 + item 3134 + 1000g = 3200g

AD 65 Cooldown reduction + 10% Passive Unique: + 20 armor penetration Passive Unique: Inflict 10% additional phisical spell damage to an enemy below 40% health (15 seconds cooldown) Active POWER UNIT (Unique) : Gain 100% extra bonus AD for calculating spell damage purpose only for 2,5 seconds (75 seconds cooldown). RECHARGE: After Power Unit effect ends, the champ bonus AD is halved for any purpose for 5 seconds

Comment: The power budget of the item is all focused on increase physical spell damage, and the active is a super powerful high risk/High reward choice, because once you activate it, you have to delete champs very fast before you are left in a harmless status for quite some time ** Anti-tank item for AD champs**

item 3153 (REWORK)

Blade of the Ruined King = Recurve Bow + Kircheis Shard + 1050g = 2800g

AS 45% Lifesteal 5%

Passive Life steal applies to damage dealt by this item's passive. Unique: Basic attacks deal 1,5% of the target's max health + 3% of the target's current health (min 10) in bonus on-hit physical damage (max 60 overall damage vs. minions and monsters). Active BLOOD DEBT (Unique): Basic attacks deal additional 0,4% + (0,4% per 1000HP) of the target's max health for 3 seconds in form of **BLOOD DEBT ** (75 seconds cooldown). The target will not suffer damage immediately, but instead will try to repay the debt for the subsequent 6 seconds through healing and draining all the sources of extra health regen except the base one. After this time, if the blood debt is not repaid, the target will suffer all the damage not repaid + 10% additional damage

Comment: This is a pure anti-tank item, meant to work at his fullest degree against those high HP tanks with super high health regen that are very obnoxious to take down when super fed, while not being very much efficient vs all the other kind of champs. A thing to note is that this item doesn't solve the issue vs tanks alone, but the players that get it have to build other lifesteal items to sustain themselves, and should add to the build a Grevious Wound item to make best use of the active

TL; DR The purpose of these items is to clearly separate the niches of AD assassins relying on AAs, AD assassins relying on spell damage, and the anti-tank niche item. I think these suggested items could pretty well achieve this purpose better than the current itemization

If you have any concern or suggestion, feel free to contribute

Hope you appreciate the work put in

39 Comments

Critmaster Garen5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-12-19T15:33:17.706+0000)

Youmuu's Ghostbalde = Bilgewater Cutlass (see above) + Serrated Dirk + Dagger + Dagger + 500g = 3400g

AD 65 -> 50 Cooldown Reduction +10% -> REMOVED AS + 25% -> ADDED Passive Unique: + 20 armor penetration Passive (NEW) Unique: Gain + 20% AS and + 15% MS upon inflicting physical damage to an enemy below 40% health for 3 seconds (15 seconds cooldown) Active Unique: Deals 10% of target champion's maximum Health (min 100) as physical damage, heals for the same amount, and steals 25% of the target's Movement Speed for 3 seconds. (550 range and 90 second cooldown)

no

which assassin makes more use of attack speed than ghostblade provides anyways?

riot is already working on a new assasin item by the way. it looked pretty good.

for some reason you worked a lot of max health % damage into bork. assassins arent supposed to take out bruisers and tanks from full health. theyre designed to jump into the back line of the enemy team, take out a squishy and run.

Ale non è male1 votes

The new assassin item is not good, it is far too powerful, and also help more the AA based Ad assassins than the spells based AD assassins, and AA assassins can yet count on actual boTRK to boost their damage since the passive is applied through an AA

Assassins that rely on AA make use of AS, how add it without putting it on an acctive would not be beneficial for them?

It looks like you haven't read properly, the new proposed BoTRK isn't for AD assassins, is to differentitate the AD items for assassins (in my proposal reworked Yomuu and new assassins dagger) and the AD item for taking out tanks (reworked BoTRK) The design of Ad items in my proposal would help assassins to take down fast squishies, so what is supposed reason why my design shouldn't work?

Edge of Daybreak3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-20T21:29:00.823+0000)

The new assassin item is not good, it is far too powerful, and also help more the AA based Ad assassins than the spells based AD assassins, and AA assassins can yet count on actual boTRK to boost their damage since the passive is applied through an AA

Assassins that rely on AA make use of AS, how add it without putting it on an acctive would not be beneficial for them?

It looks like you haven't read properly, the new proposed BoTRK isn't for AD assassins, is to differentitate the AD items for assassins (in my proposal reworked Yomuu and new assassins dagger) and the AD item for taking out tanks (reworked BoTRK) The design of Ad items in my proposal would help assassins to take down fast squishies, so what is supposed reason why my design shouldn't work?

How would the item that doesn't exist yet be too powerful? After reading the thread on it its pretty fair you are probably just afraid of ad assassins for irrational reasons. Your version of it is also just straight up broken and idk why you thought any part of that was good. You didn't even say how the passive on it works you just said i deal bonus damage. With what spells, auto attacks? Does the passive just auto trigger when they hit 40%? That active is just...my god. double my bonus AD for my rotation. That negative doesn't even matter as once I've done my load im not gonna care. It would be a worse balance nightmare than DFG was.

Ale non è male1 votes

What kind of argumentation is that? I see the stats, I see the item passive, and I notice how it is far too strong, you don't need rocket science to see that

25% missing health as physical damage after hitting 1 AA on 60 sec CD, with CD becoming 0 if target dies in those 2 seconds before mark pop in what world is going to be balanced? The target hit lose every time, because he either dies before the mark pop and thus the enemy assassin can snowball worse than a fed kata having the Nightfall passive available again, or survive those 2 seconds but then suffer so much damage that he dies when mark pop, and if the target is a squishy like it should correctly be it mean anyway that the assassin has an easy chance to snowball upon the remaining enemies because they lack the damage to kill him

All of this while being a pretty overloaded item even as far as basic stats goes (very high amount of AD + ArPen and MS)

To me it looks more like you want the Riot suggested item to get through because it would favour your preferred champs, because you have not given explanations yet why the Riot suggested item would be balanced, and while the ones I suggested would not

You didn't even say how the passive on it works

Here the proof. You are bringing up irrelevant points to the discussion. Are you debating how Morello works? Because, if the passive required certain additional conditions to be applied, it would be specified, no?

That active is just...my god. double my bonus AD for my rotation. That negative doesn't even matter as once I've done my load im not gonna care.

Except that it has actual counterplay, unlike the item you are defending so hard, and the item has an anti-snowball mechanism on it Dodge spells damage or shield it or CC the enemy after he activated the item, he is neutralized for long time after the active effect finish The target die? At least the enemy assassin can't immediately push down towers so effectively and if your allies catch him on his Recharge period he has no damage to fight back against them, so he has to hit and run away as fast as he can like what a true assassin should do

With the Riot item, again, if you manage to proc the passive on the target, the target is in a losing situation in any case, if he die with mark pop good, if he dies before mark pop even better

But I guess you won't listen argumentations, no?

Edge of Daybreak3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-22T16:58:39.433+0000)

What kind of argumentation is that? I see the stats, I see the item passive, and I notice how it is far too strong, you don't need rocket science to see that

25% missing health as physical damage after hitting 1 AA on 60 sec CD, with CD becoming 0 if target dies in those 2 seconds before mark pop in what world is going to be balanced?

I have to deal 80% of your max hp in two seconds. and also not kill you. and if i ever auto you and dont actually go in i gotta wait a minute. Armor is a thing and since its missing hp not max the less damage i deal the less damage this deals.

The target hit lose every time, because he either dies before the mark pop and thus the enemy assassin can snowball worse than a fed kata having the Nightfall passive available again, or survive those 2 seconds but then suffer so much damage that he dies when mark pop, and if the target is a squishy like it should correctly be it mean anyway that the assassin has an easy chance to snowball upon the remaining enemies because they lack the damage to kill him

what? unless that team only has one damage dealer which it wouldn't they can definitely kill a damage building squishy. it doesnt take 2 seconds to apply cc to a target.

All of this while being a pretty overloaded item even as far as basic stats goes (very high amount of AD + ArPen and MS)

its also expensive I should get something for how much that cost.

To me it looks more like you want the Riot suggested item to get through because it would favour your preferred champs, because you have not given explanations yet why the Riot suggested item would be balanced, and while the ones I suggested would not

Your suggested item is even more busted is the problem. That's why I prefer the riot suggested one because its harder to use without some insanely busted active.

Here the proof. You are bringing up irrelevant points to the discussion. Are you debating how Morello works? Because, if the passive required certain additional conditions to be applied, it would be specified, no?

It is specified it says dealing magic damage when they are at 40% hp. Are you trollin or did you actually not read it before typing this what am I saying of course you didnt you just claimed that asking you how your item works isnt relevant in a discussion about your item...

im asking how you apply your items passive because that actually matters. If you tell me i have to hit 5 spells before i get the passive thats a hell of a lot different than telling me it applies on one spell cast. how do you not get that?

Except that it has actual counterplay, unlike the item you are defending so hard, and the item has an anti-snowball mechanism on it Dodge spells damage or shield it or CC the enemy after he activated the item, he is neutralized for long time after the active effect finish The target die? At least the enemy assassin can't immediately push down towers so effectively and if your allies catch him on his Recharge period he has no damage to fight back against them, so he has to hit and run away as fast as he can like what a true assassin should do

you do realize that your item has less counterplay right? giving me the bonus damage when i drop them to 40% means ive already dealt 60% of your hp aka you clearly arent stopping me. Giving it an active for no reason doesnt help either as you have 0 ways of forcing me to waste it. and no 5 seconds isnt anti snowball do you not know how ad assassins work? Once I burst you im not doing anything for those next few seconds. its irrelevant. 5 seconds is nothing in league especially when my target is dead because double my bonus ad. That active is just broken.

With the Riot item, again, if you manage to proc the passive on the target, the target is in a losing situation in any case, if he die with mark pop good, if he dies before mark pop even better

But I guess you won't listen argumentations, no?

Your arguments are ignorant to the point that it's hard to believe a human came up with them. Only a completely ignorant player could call an item broken then suggest a new item that is even stronger and say balanced...

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

I have to deal 80% of your max hp in two seconds. and also not kill you. and if i ever auto you and dont actually go in i gotta wait a minute. Armor is a thing and since its missing hp not max the less damage i deal the less damage this deals.

AHAHAHAHAH, you are defending the riot item that you don't even understand how does work If you apply the passive it means you are in AA range, which means for AD assassins that you yet are YET ON TOP of your enemy And you don't have to deal the damage alone. There is NO clause that say that. You are placing a ticking bomb on your target, that is going to suffer increasing damage depending on how much health he is missing If you kill the enemy BEFORE tha mark pop off, the Nightfall passive is refreshed and you can use it on another target immediately, if you don't, you deal tons of damage depending on how health you have chunked off your target The only choice the target have is leave if he can, because to fight in any reasonable scenario when the passive is applied means death in any case, if for any istance he is killing the assassin and remain with 30% hp, boom, he is dead anyway

what? unless that team only has one damage dealer which it wouldn't they can definitely kill a damage building squishy. it doesnt take 2 seconds to apply cc to a target.

So you are counting on assassins not being backed-up by team or going completely yolo to say that that item is balanced? Good lord... Also, the smartest thing for the assassin is to flank in and dive when he can kill the target, which means that Nightfall Cd becomes 0 again and he can place it on the other squishy

its also expensive I should get something for how much that cost.

Yes, but both the base stats and passive are extremely powerful in the state proposed The item is far too good and gold efficient with that passive and those base stats

Your suggested item is even more busted is the problem. That's why I prefer the riot suggested one because its harder to use without some insanely busted active.

Harder to use? It takes 1 AA to apply the passive in any circumstance with no other condition, how the hell is the Riot item supposedly be harder to use? That's literaly one of the most stupid thing I have ever heard

It is specified it says dealing magic damage when they are at 40% hp. Are you trollin or did you actually not read it before typing this what am I saying of course you didnt you just claimed that asking you how your item works isnt relevant in a discussion about your item...

im asking how you apply your items passive because that actually matters. If you tell me i have to hit 5 spells before i get the passive thats a hell of a lot different than telling me it applies on one spell cast. how do you not get that?

AHAHAHAHAH You can't be seriously debating now It is stated clearly how the passive are applied in the original post You keep focusing the attention on something that has yet been stated is only a diversion to avoid serious deebate Those descriptions are as much clear as Morello one, but you use them as an argument to say that the item is busted? And you are arguing that Riot item is harder to use?

you do realize that your item has less counterplay right? giving me the bonus damage when i drop them to 40% means ive already dealt 60% of your hp aka you clearly arent stopping me. Giving it an active for no reason doesnt help either as you have 0 ways of forcing me to waste it.** and no 5 seconds isnt anti snowball do you not know how ad assassins work? Once I burst you im not doing anything for those next few seconds.** its irrelevant. 5 seconds is nothing in league especially when my target is dead because double my bonus ad. That active is just broken.

That's COMPLETELY false This mean that the window for the assassin to act is much smaller, because you can't simply go in, and deal damage knowing that there is a Sword of Damocles on enemy head like with the Nightfall passive (assassin team catch-up while the assassin is fighting, even if assassin die they can deal enough damage to kill the enemy through the mark). You have to go in when the target is low, and if enemy is positioning well and the target is full health you can't do it And for the bolded part, are you freaking joking? Are you telling me that Yasuos after killing 1 enemy don't go for the next one if they can? Are you telling me that Zeds aren't doing that? Are you telling that Fioras and Yi stop after killing 1 enemy? LOL Assassins try to kill multiple enemies once the squishy is gone, this is how ANY assassin work And if you are forced to use the active you can't immediately snowball AFTER on my item because you lose stats, you can on Riot item because you don't lose stats and you can reapply 2 or 3 times the passive in a fight. But yeah, there is less counterplay on my item... Pathetic, really

Your arguments are ignorant to the point that it's hard to believe a human came up with them. Only a completely ignorant player could call an item broken then suggest a new item that is even stronger and say balanced...

The funniest part and you are not even argumenting starting from correct premises and you take yourself the right to call other argumentations pathetic instead of dismantling it through logic...this says much on your good faith here You are clearly supporting the Riot item to get through because it make AD assassin class OP, instead of tackling the question from a design point of view like a did in my post - but I doubt you have seen that - where I tried to do an attempt to differentiate the various class of assassins giving them the proper items

If you are in good faith in debating here, answer to this simple question : "Why from a design standpoint do you think the Riot suggested item is balanced and how does it enhance the different specific niches of the existing AD assassins"

DIRU2 votes

youre just nerfing AD items here.

Ale non è male1 votes

Reasoning for your statement?

DIRU2 votes

removing stats that all AD casters/AD assassins want. btw zed would need even more buffs if this was pushed through. core item nerfs are pretty big to everyone :-D

Ale non è male1 votes

Ok, so you read nothing but raw stats? Reread again the original post before commenting again, please

DIRU1 votes

first of all, assassin dagger. for 3200g i'd like more stats. it's way too snowbally. 100% more scaling on my abilites? burst everything or die. guess what happens if you're a bit behind. no ad caster/assassin wants AS on youmuu, no active nerfs most of them, once more too snowbally because of the MS passive for 20% hp. all that these changes will do is make mid a Mage vs Mage all the time, or smurfing shitfest in bronze with the SNOWBALLY items.

Ale non è male1 votes

Burst everything or die should EXACTLY what an assassin is meant to be AD casters assassins in this rework scenario shouldn't aim to get Yomuu but the Dagger, do you get that? The items for AA assassins and casters assassins are separated each others

And no, there is no snowball effect in the way the Cd are designed, not more than on Riot proposed item or the actual itemization, so I don't accept this kind of ignorant statement Show me WHERE there are the snowbally effects in the items I suggest

What kind of stats would you like for 3200g, though?

DIRU1 votes

no it's literally making it so you are worthless if you don't burst anything for 5 seconds. and AD assassins need better items btw, do you get that? and it's: burst one target, if you fail, escape/die. the chance of you escaping goes higher the lower your killing potential is. see: zed vs qss, zhonyas, exhaust. talon. rengar.

Ale non è male1 votes

If you can escape after failing the dive it means that you have done a good evaluation of when going in and the enemy has reacted well so you were forced to retreat but had the tools to do it so. Go in and kill a target or die is what happens when one of assassin's and team's target play well and the other don't ideally

Sasogwa2 votes

Huh? Youmuu's is on a super good spot right now. It's got exactly what it needs. Active for increase power/mobility when you need it, high AD, cdr, high flat arpen. Everything an assassin ever dreamt of. Your version is worse for assassins and is more of a sustained damage item and less of "power boost", making it not filling the niche it has. The unique.. uh, ok it's decent. Don't see why you would get a botrk active on this item with %max health on an item that's meant to be against squishies (??!). Somewhat lowers the counterplay with the slow. The MS gained when you bursted someone.. Uh, meh. You use the MS to get to the target right now, not to go away. That is not really what you want.

Your assassin dagger

I won't lie, this looks like an item that could be super OP on some assassins and garbage on others. Do auto-resets that proc lifesteal work with this spell amp? (Talon's/Rengar's Q for instance). 20 Flat arpen and 10% cdr are godly to assassinate, I suppose that item would be immediately nerfed as its synergizes with some champions would make them OP as f* (mostly the spell thing)

Your botrk

Kirchei's shard???? But it's got a passive that's completely designed around burst magic damage and it suddenly evaporates when you complete it, what the f But on the rest... Yeah I suppose it's ok. Best case scenario 1.5% max health + 3% current health + (1.6 * 1.1 if it explodes = 1.76) % max health so basically 3.26% max health + 3% current health? It IS cheaper, so that's a thing to consider. Passive is currently 6 % current health. It's better than I thought initially, yeah it's good. And fills the anti-tank niche better than it used to. OH WAIT.. It's an active for 3 seconds and 75sec cd? Oh no, that's gonna be kinda weak. The window is too short. A power window of 3 s is not an item you're looking for when dealing against tanks. I actually think you could make it work all the time and the item has no active.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

I won't lie, this looks like an item that could be super OP on some assassins and garbage on others.

I hope that's the feeling you got for all three those items, because that is what they were aimed for

The reason why i don't like riot's Assassin Dagger, it is because it is a too good of an item in any circumstance, and because it is an item that inherently favour more a class of assassin rather than having each class having his own item

That's the perspective people should look like at these reworks

Actual yomuu IS very good, but it falls in the same problems that I have mentioned above for Riot proposed dagger, imho Why I gave to rework Yomuu BoTRK passive? Because the idea is that the assassin should get in with correct decision making and proper use of their abilities. The actual Yomuu speed boost last too long and make too easy for assassins to reach their target instead and absolve too easily positional/decisional mistakes Have the damage slow on active and MS that activates when the enemy is low, give assasins the weapons to go out or chase other targets once they have gotten in and successfuly done their job, which should be assassins role, and to get that powerful of an active they have to pay with some raw stats, especially given that other stats were added to better suit the profile of the champ that should get the item (an assassin that deal damnage through AA and so could use base AA)

I can see if someone don't like it, but you have to look at the suggested items as a try to give each own their niche item, more than to produce the item that solves all the problems

My Assassin Dagger I can see that spell damage thing could not be that clear at first What i had in mind was something that should help spell based champs, not AA based champs, so it wouldn't make sense to make the item work with abilities that modify AAs or apply on hit-effects after all Using Talon as example, it shouldn't work on his Q, but it should boost W and ulti damage

BoTRK Yeah, I had to put Kirchei because I needed an AS item in the recipe with an effect that could have somewhat make sense to translate into active, and I didn't want to invent an intermediate AS item specifically for BoTRK only, so I admit is a bit weird but I guess it could work I think you lost at some point during item description First, the active additional damage stacks because is extra damage added to the passive damage so at every autoattack you deal passive damage + the extra active damage in the form of blood debt, so hitting 4 autoattacks in 3 seconds on a 4000 HP tank would mean deal him 8% max health in blood debt form Secondarily, the main strength of the active is not the damage, but to make the hp/health regen tanks less unkillable because they would lost the extra health regen they get through their tank builds. The power window is far longer than 3 seconds, because basically all the healing and regen that a tank could get during a long fight goes to repay blood debt and make it easier to take tanks down if you together with your team can deal enough damage to him That's why the item has lower raw stats and the passive has not been buffed to pre-nerfs state, it does not have to be strong in any situation, it has to be used to take down hp/health regen tanks

Sasogwa2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-12-26T12:18:13.345+0000)

I hope that's the feeling you got for all three those items, because that is what they were aimed for

The reason why i don't like riot's Assassin Dagger, it is because it is a too good of an item in any circumstance, and because it is an item that inherently favour more a class of assassin rather than having each class having his own item

That's the perspective people should look like at these reworks

Actual yomuu IS very good, but it falls in the same problems that I have mentioned above for Riot proposed dagger, imho Why I gave to rework Yomuu BoTRK passive? Because the idea is that the assassin should get in with correct decision making and proper use of their abilities. The actual Yomuu speed boost last too long and make too easy for assassins to reach their target instead and absolve too easily positional/decisional mistakes Have the damage slow on active and MS that activates when the enemy is low, give assasins the weapons to go out or chase other targets once they have gotten in and successfuly done their job, which should be assassins role, and to get that powerful of an active they have to pay with some raw stats, especially given that other stats were added to better suit the profile of the champ that should get the item (an assassin that deal damnage through AA and so could use base AA)

I can see if someone don't like it, but you have to look at the suggested items as a try to give each own their niche item, more than to produce the item that solves all the problems

My Assassin Dagger I can see that spell damage thing could not be that clear at first What i had in mind was something that should help spell based champs, not AA based champs, so it wouldn't make sense to make the item work with abilities that modify AAs or apply on hit-effects after all Using Talon as example, it shouldn't work on his Q, but it should boost W and ulti damage

BoTRK Yeah, I had to put Kirchei because I needed an AS item in the recipe with an effect that could have somewhat make sense to translate into active, and I didn't want to invent an intermediate AS item specifically for BoTRK only, so I admit is a bit weird but I guess it could work I think you lost at some point during item description First, the active additional damage stacks because is extra damage added to the passive damage so at every autoattack you deal passive damage + the extra active damage in the form of blood debt, so hitting 4 autoattacks in 3 seconds on a 4000 HP tank would mean deal him 8% max health in blood debt form Secondarily, the main strength of the active is not the damage, but to make the hp/health regen tanks less unkillable because they would lost the extra health regen they get through their tank builds. The power window is far longer than 3 seconds, because basically all the healing and regen that a tank could get during a long fight goes to repay blood debt and make it easier to take tanks down if you together with your team can deal enough damage to him That's why the item has lower raw stats and the passive has not been buffed to pre-nerfs state, it does not have to be strong in any situation, it has to be used to take down hp/health regen tanks

It's equivalent to damage if they can't regen the same value. And how did I lose anything? That's exactly how it worked in my mind 3k HP -> 1.6% max health per auto (in regen denial) increased by 10% if it's not denied (making it actually better against tanks who don't regen, LOL. It's not specified however if any autoattack resets the duration of 6 seconds before explosion or not) so my calculations were exact. I was talking about potential damage output equivalence, not "damage you deal right now", this item being obviously weak/garbage at bursting.

Unless this 'blood debt' ignores armor, in which case it's like %max HP delayed true damage. Oh we all love that mechanic, don't we?

About the Kirchei stuff, I don't see why you wouldn't keep longbow, kirchei's has literally nothing to do with the active.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

3k HP -> 1.6% max health per auto (in regen denial) increased by 10% if it's not denied (making it actually better against tanks who don't regen, LOL. It's not specified however if any autoattack resets the duration of 6 seconds before explosion or not) so my calculations were exact.

A tank with 3k HP health? Given how tanks have 2000+ hp as base health and if they go with just with Randuin/Dead Man+s Plate + Spirit Visage they surpass fairly easily that threesold, it is unrealistic except for some few exceptions (es. Rammus) or itemization where you won't pick up BoTRK to counter them, but rather ArPen It's more 3500 to 4000 hp at least

Yeah it is clear you got lost at some point, because active duration is 3 seconds. The effect of the auto is visible on the target for the subsequent 6 seconds, and there is no reason why AA should reset the duration, if anything this would only benefit the tank that would suffer later the eventual explosion damage, and if tank can stay alive for so long that you would really benefit of the extended duration of the blood debt something is really wrong because you are taking too much time to take him down

Potential damage you deal is a thing, but not THE thing here. THE thing is that give your team a window to take down tanks, since they can't regen/heal themselves, and allow you to take out enemy team meat shield

Blood debt is just damage dealt like the passive one stacked to be released in a second moment if the tank can't repay the debt, there is nowhere where it is stated a different thing

2 Recurve Bow, as well as adding a pair of daggers or such, would give too much AS to the item and the item would also end up being too cheap There wasn't really an option with the current itemization to give AS without either given too high stats elsewhere....for example if you add Vampiric Scepter you would have been forced to basically give BoTRK the actual base stats and the item would have been far more stronger than the actual one You had either to invent a new item that gave AS + lifesteal or pick up Kirchei, but as I have previously said I think it wasn't worth to add such an item for BoTRK build path only

ZephyrDrake2 votes

how to fail completely at everything!

thanks for showing me how to do that OP [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Ale non è male1 votes

reasoning for the statement?

I love the random shittalk without argumentation, really

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-12-26T16:02:51.477+0000)

reasoning for the statement?

I love the random shittalk without argumentation, really

i love how you think that assassins care more about AS than CDR, i love how you think anyone but auto attackers would care about that BotRK and even then it's quite a bit of a stretch since it's just a needlessly complicated item for no reason whatsoever. There is pretty much 0 appeal to ANY of these items and assassins current items beat the crap out of this ones by a mile to the point that they wouldn't even consider buying a single one of them... specially since 2 of them are worthless to them and the third is just marginally useful.

Please tell me what AD assassin care more about AS than CDR? what AD assassin would care enough to actually auto you more than once or twice?

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

i love how you think that assassins care more about AS than CDR,

I love how you fail to grasp the concept of the original post and goes for straight shit talking

CDR is kept as stat on an assassin item, it is just that I think different kind of assassins should have different items, and CDR was one stat that was cut on one item that was completely changed to fit a certain niche in his overall concept to make room for other powerful things

And ignore that the goal was not just to create OP items but to create items for different niches - you could give appreciable feedback if you explained why the items were too weak or didn't hit the point, but you didn't and shit talk, so you don't deserve a nicer response than this educated one -

But yeah, keep your narrow mind and go ahead...just don't commetn if you don't have anything insightful to say

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T16:33:38.304+0000)

I love how you fail to grasp the concept of the original post and goes for straight shit talking

CDR is kept as stat on an assassin item, it is just that I think different kind of assassins should have different items, and CDR was one stat that was cut on one item that was completely changed to fit a certain niche in his overall concept to make room for other powerful things

And ignore that the goal was not just to create OP items but to create items for different niches - you could give appreciable feedback if you explained why the items were too weak or didn't hit the point, but you didn't and shit talk, so you don't deserve a nicer response than this educated one -

But yeah, keep your narrow mind and go ahead...just don't commetn if you don't have anything insightful to say

what niche? there is no niche if there isn't a single champion to fill said niche. Like i said TELL ME WHAT AD ASSASSIN WOULD CARE MORE ABOUT AS THAN CDR! TELL ME WHAT AD ASSASSIN WOULD CARE TO USE MORE THAN 1 OR 2 AUTO ATTACKS IN BETWEEN THEIR COMBOS!

Ale non è male1 votes

Like I said, if you don't have anything insightful to say, don't comment again, please

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T16:52:46.946+0000)

Like I said, if you don't have anything insightful to say, don't comment again, please

and like i said TELL ME ONE AD ASSASSIN THAT CARES MORE ABOUT AS THAN CDR! it's so obvious you have no idea what assassins care for in terms of stats and when you are called out to it you come with "if i don't have anything insightful to say"? stop dodging my question and answer it! the only one who has NO insightful things to say is you sir. Answer the damn question instead of trying to cover yourself with words you have no idea what they mean

Ale non è male1 votes

I have yet answered to you but you openly refused to even listen my response and start writing with caps lock (which confirms you don't want to debate in internet netiquette)

So, no, I won't answer anymore because it is useless to answer to someone like you, that didn't even understood despite receiving explanations

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T17:00:13.150+0000)

I have yet answered to you but you openly refused to even listen my response and start writing with caps lock (which confirms you don't want to debate in internet netiquette)

So, no, I won't answer anymore because it is useless to answer to someone like you, that didn't even understood despite receiving explanations

good to know you have no actual argument. Tell me what explanations? you have said NOTHING at all other than "fill a niche" when there isn't one to begin with since there are no assassins that wants AS over CDR

Ale non è male1 votes

Tell me, why all kind of assassins should run the same item? Why ALL assassins, both AA based one and spell based one should not have different items withdifferent stats? Why AA based assassins wouldn't like AS? Why the actual AD itemization favor AA based assassins over spell based assassins? How would you help spell based AD assassins without giving to anyone of them the same overpowered item?

Good to know you didn't answer to any of these points when argumentating, but keep accusing others to have no argumentations

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T17:48:20.782+0000)

Tell me, why all kind of assassins should run the same item? Why ALL assassins, both AA based one and spell based one should not have different items withdifferent stats? Why AA based assassins wouldn't like AS? Why the actual AD itemization favor AA based assassins over spell based assassins? How would you help spell based AD assassins without giving to anyone of them the same overpowered item?

Good to know you didn't answer to any of these points when argumentating, but keep accusing others to have no argumentations

once again tell what what assassin is AA based? what assassin cares about AS more than CDR? you have not said a single thing. Please tell me what assassin actually cares uses their auto attacks more often than their abilities. How is the current AD itemization favoring AA assassins when they don't exist or do you think ADCs are assassins all of a sudden? There is nothing to comment since you have no told me a single AD assassin that actually cares about AS more than CDR. They do not exist and i love how you say stuff like " Why the actual AD itemization favor AA based assassins" yet you are making an item for those type of none-existing champions. There are no AD assassins who will bother auto attacking you more than once or twice after they use their combo

Ale non è male1 votes

Nice to see that you are basically saying screw you are basically to saying screw you to champs like Kha who don't have synergy with actual Assassin itemization Exactly what balance is meant for, right?

Please, you are the one that are using a cop-out and didn't even bother to answer when you have been called-out on that. You don't want to debate. Fine. Then don't debate

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-28T10:24:35.211+0000)

Nice to see that you are basically saying screw you are basically to saying screw you to champs like Kha who don't have synergy with actual Assassin itemization Exactly what balance is meant for, right?

Please, you are the one that are using a cop-out and didn't even bother to answer when you have been called-out on that. You don't want to debate. Fine. Then don't debate

excuse me? Khazix does not give a damn about auto attacking, he jumps in uses his abilities and blows someone up with his abilities. He might at most use his autos if the enemy is that low after using his abilities. Please tell me how these items are going to help Khazix? What he needs is another flat armor pen item not some dumb item that gives him AS.

Second, why the hell are you even bothering to give damage on an item that is based of how much health the enemy has? assassins are not meant to deal with tanks they are meant to deal with squishies so why even bother? You are even stripping AD for some AS that 0 assassin wants. ADCs are not assassins! get that over your head! Tryndamere is not an assassin! Master Yi is not an assassin!

3rd, once again you have not told me a SINGLE AD assassin that uses their autos more than once or twice between their combos!

I have called you out on so many things but you are the one who keeps trying to evade every single thing!

thanks for showing me that you have 0 idea what you are talking about GREAT JOB on making an item for a sub set of characters that does not exist. Keep going maybe one day you will make an item that assassins actually care for [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

excuse me? Khazix does not give a damn about auto attacking, he jumps in uses his abilities and blows someone up with his abilities.

That's why instead of having one item that does it all that is simply OP for some assassins to be at least decent on every assassin or alternatively has to be nerfed to avoid freelo and remain completely useless on the champs that has less synergy on it and are generally more in trouble, I tried to take the question of some champs left behind by trying to create an item for the champs that deal damage basically only through abilities like Kha, and an item for champs that have in their kit synergies with AA damage like Talon or Zed (hence the AS put on one item)

If only you were eager to debate peacefully here without prejudices and yelling around you would have been able to notice that from the start, rather than going with the babbling you did in all the discussion instead of doing constructive critics and feedback

why the hell are you even bothering to give damage on an item that is based of how much health the enemy has? assassins are not meant to deal with tanks they are meant to deal with squishies so why even bother?

That's why I specified in the premise that I was separating items that are for the champs that has to fight squishies, the two assassin items being reworked Yomuu and proposed Dagger, from the items specifically meant to deal with tanks, the anti-tank item being reworked BoTRK In the past we have seen an item lie BoTRK being used to deal vs squishies, which was not his work, because it was just overtuned. Zed used to build BoTRK (hello, AS/AA damage interaction) before recent nerfs, which should have never happened at first, and if for any reason Riot reverts some of the nerfs that BoTRK receive, as the item is currently designed, BoTRK would become an option for Zed again...which should make no sense at all since BoTRK is also the main anti-tank item around

And again, you should have noticed that if you werent just babbling and yelling but trying to seriously debate

There are various champs that have AA enhancers in the combo and deal extra damage on AAs, AS is a stat that can be useful to them, and I have mentioned above some examples

As far as I have shown once AGAIN here, I have called you out on serious point while what you are calling "I have called you out on so many things" is just you not even reading and/or understanding original posts and my subsequent replies and refuse to debate entering the discussion with a narrow mind and not even taking a step back when you have been explaining what you did overlook at first glance

But yeah, I bet you will answer to this post saying that I am evading every thing again, right?

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nRFNpoR3,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-29T12:48:56.529+0000)

That's why instead of having one item that does it all that is simply OP for some assassins to be at least decent on every assassin or alternatively has to be nerfed to avoid freelo and remain completely useless on the champs that has less synergy on it and are generally more in trouble, I tried to take the question of some champs left behind by trying to create an item for the champs that deal damage basically only through abilities like Kha, and an item for champs that have in their kit synergies with AA damage like Talon or Zed (hence the AS put on one item)

If only you were eager to debate peacefully here without prejudices and yelling around you would have been able to notice that from the start, rather than going with the babbling you did in all the discussion instead of doing constructive critics and feedback

That's why I specified in the premise that I was separating items that are for the champs that has to fight squishies, the two assassin items being reworked Yomuu and proposed Dagger, from the items specifically meant to deal with tanks, the anti-tank item being reworked BoTRK In the past we have seen an item lie BoTRK being used to deal vs squishies, which was not his work, because it was just overtuned. Zed used to build BoTRK (hello, AS/AA damage interaction) before recent nerfs, which should have never happened at first, and if for any reason Riot reverts some of the nerfs that BoTRK receive, as the item is currently designed, BoTRK would become an option for Zed again...which should make no sense at all since BoTRK is also the main anti-tank item around

And again, you should have noticed that if you werent just babbling and yelling but trying to seriously debate

There are various champs that have AA enhancers in the combo and deal extra damage on AAs, AS is a stat that can be useful to them, and I have mentioned above some examples

As far as I have shown once AGAIN here, I have called you out on serious point while what you are calling "I have called you out on so many things" is just you not even reading and/or understanding original posts and my subsequent replies and refuse to debate entering the discussion with a narrow mind and not even taking a step back when you have been explaining what you did overlook at first glance

But yeah, I bet you will answer to this post saying that I am evading every thing again, right?

once again, what would be the point of assassins ever getting into auto attack range and just autoing you? their entire kits and their whole entire purpose pretty much tells them that is a terrible idea. Other than Diana who at least has an auto attack enhancer on her passive no other assassin really cares about going into melee range just to auto you. The only reason they will ever auto you is if they already used their combo and can get a few hits for free on you. No one picks BotRK on Zed because it has AS they pick it because of the way it's active and his ult synergize with each other. The only thing the change to Youmuu's would achieve is to have ADCs and fighters like Shyvana pick it up and be shunned by assassins since they do not care about hitting high health targets, they do not care about gaining extra MS since they use their skills to close in on a target and blow them up, they do not care one single bit about any of the effects it has. ADCs and fighters like Shyvana will love this item since it gives what they want.

BotRK is bad on tanks because tanks already build a ton of armor and the damage is physical. The only way it would deal with tanks is if the item had some amount of %bonus armor pen so it wouldn't be as effective on squishies but more effective against tanks. The only way BotRK is good on tanks is if the tank is a moron and builds next to no armor items. Squishies due to them not building armor they suffer the consequences of the poor stats the item has to actually deal with tanks. You are the one babbling nonsense since for some reason you think that assassins care about auto attacking someone. But also if you were actually reading you would understand i have never mentioned BotRK in the slightest since that is not an item you are saying is for assassins and i have been talking about assassins all this time!

I also have no idea what is the point of having assassin items with "deal X damage to enemies below Y% health" they are going to blow you up so this effect is going to be just overkill half the time and only really useful when they just didn't quite managed to kill someone in which case just a basic combo would most likely be more than enough to kill the target making the effect be pointless. Assassins don't really care about something like this... unless they are going for tanks which they shouldn't be going for in the first place

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

once again, what would be the point of assassins ever getting into auto attack range and just autoing you?

...

Other than Diana who at least has an auto attack enhancer on her passive no other assassin really cares about going into melee range just to auto you.

NOPE Akali has extra autoattack damage on passive and can deal extra damage on her Q through AA by making the mark of assassin detonate (she's hybrid dmg) Fizz W has both on passive and active autoattack enhancer and he has no long range damage except for the ulti and for a while had successful ad builds (fizz scales with ap, though) Rengar...do I have ever to say? AA-Q-AA (and eventually if there are enough stacks of ferocity, you could even sneak an extra Q-AA)? Talon has AA enhancer on Q, his passive make his AA deal extra damage on CCed targets, and he has even a dash that lead him to go in melee range to do the above mentioned things Zed has tons of extra AA damage on the passive and he can go in melee range and AA since his shadow allow him to go out as well and that damage he can deal synergize with the ulti as well

This without counting champs that obviously relies relies on abilites to do damage but also have AA associated extra damage like Ekko, Kassadin have extra damage on autoattack on W passives, Nida cougar Q enhances AA, Riven has the enhacner on passive, and without counting bruisers either in the mix that could go for a more damage oriented build

BoTRK was picked on Zed pre nerfs not only because of active, but also because he could deal tons of damage through AAs since he could safely escape through the shadow after hitting some AAs and synergized with the passive

The key problem is that assassins won't get in "and just autoing you", but when they go in they also AA you since they have to go in anyway to deal you damage except few exceptions, and some are inclined to AA more because they base a good amount of damage on AAs and interactions with AAs

The question now is that how you want to solve assassin problem, if through straight buffs or if changing the approach of the itemization. Change approach of itemization means create items that are situational powerful on some champs in some situations, which was the thread goal

ADC would have generally no room for the item because neither of the AD or AS stats on the item is really so good to allow them to dump one of the other items to get it. The worry about bruisers like Shyvana possibly getting it is not unreasonable, I concede it to you, but imho the stats aren't anyway good enough to allow Shyvana to go for a tank build and deal tons of damage with the item alone or paired with only 1 another item There would be a lot of levergae on the item to adjust stats to avoid that to happen, anyway (make it melee only or just subtract some AS and give some Ad as compensation)

BoTRK being bad on tanks is laughable, BoTRK work against health, and tanks build health when they build armor barring exceptions (and Thornmail is even in a terrible spot right now) The problem is that BoTRK damage should be connected to max health in someway if you want it to not damage squishies more than tanks. The ADC have a subset of items with bonus armor pen, so you can combine BoTRK with those items to face tanks super effectively

I also have no idea what is the point of having assassin items with "deal X damage to enemies below Y% health" they are going to blow you up so this effect is going to be just overkill half the time

...

Assassins don't really care about something like this...

BUT, the Riot item that YOU defended, does this to an even worse extent with its passive, so where is your coherence? The Riot item deal with the mark X amount of damage based on % missing health of the enemy X being 25% of the target missing health),and it is not even restricted to some condition like having the enemy to be below a certain health to trigger it So, you bashed the mechanism mentioned in my items but in the same thread you praise an even worse designed display of the same mechanism? How does it make even sense? At least in my iteration the assassin extra power is gated by the conditions to met, and you have to yourself keep dealing damage to make use of the extra damage unlocked, the Riot designed item is far more snowbally design side and not even require you to deal the damage needed to unlock mark's damage but you defended it regardless

That's the step of the reasoning that contraddict itself the most in your own argumentations against my thread here, and make me doubt of the fact that you aren't complaining just because you are biased towards some assassin and just want an OP item to get through because it favour your preferred champs

Can you sincerely explain me why the Riot iteration of that mechanism is ok but the one included in my items does not?

IronwallJackson1 votes

MasterYi

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

MasterYi

with that logic i guess that Trynd is also an assassin and so is Kayle...

Ale non è male1 votes

Bump

Ale non è male1 votes

Christmas holidays bump

Pierce The Veal1 votes

I actually quite like his ideas. Sure Youmuu's according to his design gives more attack speed now, but it definitely fits well with the assassin's thematic with the movement speed and execute. And all of these items with a little touchups could be used well by not only assassins but also other AD champions.

I am however annoyed at the idea to remove AD and cdr from youmuu's.

But they are definitely CertainlyT level reworks of the items so of course they'll get downvoted.

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