Mana-Less Sustain Champions...

Shiznyte··5 votes·2,035 views

Does anyone else feel like this concept is a bit odd? Champions like Aatrox Akali Vladimir seem extremely hard to balance appropriately. Does anyone remember early Aatrox? His base stats were entirely to high for his Kit so they nerfed his base stats multiple times until he was quite frankly... to weak to even lane. He had a few reworks since then, but it's lookin like he maybe getting more changes in the future. When you have a "Carry" level of damage in a kit that is entirely built around sustain some extremely silly things can happen especially if they snowball, but mainly late game these champions at full build are pretty godly (look at you Vlad). So Riot in the future could we avoid Mana-less (or just resource-less champs like Vlad) with high level sustains kits? Give them a reason to have to go back to base, give them a reason to consider not spamming spells, give them some Mana to gate their power/lane pressure!

25 Comments

Teridax682 votes

I think the issue with these champions has less to do with the fact that their sustain is manaless, and more to do with the fact that their sustain is just poorly gated, period. At the end of the day, sustain is the negation of damage, which in lane means it is usually also the negation of plays made by one's opponent: because of this, in-lane sustain should represent the product of an equal or better play, namely by landing a difficult ability, putting oneself at risk, etc. Under no circumstances should healing just come out of thin air, and the absolute worst form of sustain one can have is to be able to just hang back and press a button at no meaningful cost or cooldown (which is unfortunately all too common on quite a few support kits still). With champions like Aatrox, Akali, or Vlad, the issue has mostly been that their healing comes from either just autoattacking at melee range or using short-ranged spells: while this could be more justified in a lane heavy with ranged harass or poke, such as mid or bot, it is much less so in top lane, where everyone is short-ranged, but not everyone is manaless (most top laners have healing, shielding or both, however). As a result, their sustain tends to feel unfair.

What bugs me about requests to tack mana onto manaless champions, however, is that mana is only a means to an end, not an end in itself: ultimately, the only purpose to mana is to act as a resource gate over an extended period of time, mainly so that champions in lane are forced to back if their kits are a) too safe, or b) abusive in lane. Issue A doesn't apply here, or at least shouldn't, because these champions are expected to expose themselves to attacks (and if they don't, that's an issue that needs to be resolved), and issue B shouldn't apply because abusive kits should be answered at their source, rather than with band-aids. Effectively, the bottom line is that if manaless champions don't offer enough counterplay in lane, then chances are that their problems come from dysfunction in their kits or individual abilities, rather than their resource system.

One thing I also think is responsible for making sustain champions feel unhealthy is how their sustain interacts with scaling: when a champion has too much static health, there are generally at least ways to play around that via poke, but when a champion has too much sustain (and typically those same champions are fairly durable as well), the only way to counter that is through burst. Because burst tends to be all-or-nothing, and is itself heavily dependent upon scaling, this means that if you don't have access to good burst, and you're dealing with an overly fed sustain champion, you're screwed. Beyond just champions with innate sustain, this is also a problem with marksmen whenever they have life steal or any kind of persistent healing or shielding, because it puts bursty champions on a razor's edge of balance where even slightly insufficient burst can be severely mitigated in very short order. Excessive stat differences tend to mess balance up anyways, but it's particularly bad when it comes to power with low downtime, as is the case for most kinds of self-healing.

Shiznyte2 votes

You are spot on dude! However one sustain kit does have that A) problem (too safe) IMO and that is Vlad. The scaling on Sustain is the most frustrating part I 100% agree with that... I hope riot can work some magic with these champions... I'm pretty annoyed when i have one in my game on my team or the other one.

Teridax681 votes

I agree with this, the problem with Vladimir in particular is that he has more base safety than a lot of top laners already by being ranged, but on top of that, even after his rework, he can still play really safe and just Q sustain from minions, or even by poking from a safer distance.

Tbh, another main reason why I dislike Vlad's sustain is that he has three separate sources of self-healing (his Q, his W and his ult), yet none of them are really connected to each other, and most of them don't have the most compelling gameplay on a champion who's meant to be a master of vampiric blood magic. I feel Vlad needs to pay a health cost for all of his abilities, including his Q, and only be able to heal for significant amounts when he uses enough of his power against tough opponents. Thematically, I always imagined Vlad using his opponent as an extension of his own circulatory system: most of his abilities amount to him using his own blood as a weapon by ripping it out of his body and forcing it into his enemies, and then extracting his and his opponent's blood back to heal himself. Effectively, Vlad's entire combat cycle should feature a period where he damages himself to hurt his enemies, followed by a moment where he heals himself back and repeats the cycle again. This, I think, could potentially work as a unified system that would provide much more interesting gameplay than his stat-for-stats innate, and could also provide a better sliding scale of risk versus reward: if Vlad's healing were to scale in proportion to the amount of damage he inflicts to champions, but also had some sort of downtime, he might still have some basic measure of sustain in difficult lanes, but otherwise he'd have to put himself at real risk via lots of self-damage to get his self-healing engine running at peak efficiency.

Shiznyte2 votes

Yes,yes,yes! Make his healing scale off the target hes attackings Hp or level or something not based off his AP. This may encourage more tank vlads, so keeping a few AP scalings would be nice

Teridax682 votes

Indeed, having Vlad's healing scale with his target's power, rather than his own, could help avoid the issue of self-sustain scaling out of control, as here it would always be matched up against the strength of his opponent. Moreover, I also agree that Vlad should keep both health and AP scalings, and I think those have the potential to be implemented more creatively than his current passive: making his damage scale jointly with AP and health, and having his AP amplify his healing, for example, could establish a clearer separation between tank Vlad (lots of DPS and static health, lower sustain), AP Vlad (low health pool, but faster damage output and stronger sustain), and every build in-between.

Rester1 votes

That's kinda why they tend to stray away from new manaless champions. I think almost every one after Gnar has had mana for resources.

Shiznyte1 votes

I hope that trend continues! I remember a time when Gnar was released, Yasuo was a couple weeks prior, Aatrox before that, and Zac before that. You are correct though we haven't seen a resourceless champion in a while. I just have a bad feeling one is coming up soon...

xGunna16 votes

kled is manaless tho

Shiznyte1 votes

that true!

xGunna11 votes

to balance the game all champs need to have mana

only braindead people play champs that spam abilities like urf without any taking care of mana like yasuo kata zed akali vlad gnar kled ...

the majority of them always have balance problems

what is the point of a champ that his ability deals the same dmg as other champ but he is manaless ? it's not fair

at least manaless champs needs high cooldowns or low dmg for that compensation

yasuo Q deals dmg almost like galio q but has no mana so he spams that shit for no consequence

Shiznyte2 votes

I think Energy is Okay to an certain extent. Yasuo should have energy... that would change that champion to a point where only good plays will know what to do. let him keep his windwall and bullshit passives just give him energy to gate him! Energy with shit loads of sustain is where I do not agree anymore (akali)

completely resource-less champs like Garen and Shyvanna i agree should be changed... that is pretty lame that a champion can be so basic and so strong at the same time! The Mana-less Skills need to do way less damage or just need to cost something to make the players use their brains instead of mash shit when its up of CD.

xGunna11 votes

energy is fast to recover so it is basically no cost most of time

if they change yasuo to mana champ am sure his playrate and ban rate will significantly drop just like kata and zed and shyv

they just have a clear advantage without any consequences just because riot made them like this doesn't mean it is balanced

they need high cooldowns or low dmg if low cooldowns to compensate the difference

Shiznyte1 votes

I agree much longer CD's do need to be implemented on resourceless champs. Energy has its downsides for example like Shen if you miss your taunt (taunt is how he gains energy back aside from just time) you actually will go energy starved in a fight pretty quickly especially if you ulted in! Akali and Zed are like Energy at its worst... so much burst so much mobility and no reason to leave the lane early so you can slaughter a laneing phase. Shen and Kennan are good examples of energy done right, you need to land your Key points of your Kit in order to keep energy up in a fight. Zed's energy regan passive is a bit much... when a mimic'd ability hits a target he gains up to 50 energy per hit. You can get quite a bit of your bar back with 1 Q in a team fight but the downside is you give up your escape for a chance to regan energy so it has some bad aspects to it.

I agree with champions like Kat she totally needs a resource or cut her damages in half... the shunpo nerf was nice, but she snowballs way to quickly and can pop off in any fight at any point in the game because of her kit.

paisy1 votes

Energy is good in lane but runs out pretty fast in team fights and skirmishes, and takes a while to come back if you don't proc it back with abilities

xGunna11 votes

maybe for zed cuz he has kinda high cooldowns but akali and shen has no energy problems akali get energy after using Q on target which is always gonna do anyway for more burst but zed need a bit of resource management due to high cooldowns

but still is not nearly comparable to mana energy is good all games mana is good in late game only and even though some champs in late game like anivia have mana problems meanwhile champs like zoe has low mana costs even in early game so it doesn't make any sense because of stupid balance team

Shiznyte1 votes

I think the big difference is that Zed's energy regen comes from a skill shot... Akali has never even heard of a skill shot or seen one in her life... it's much easier for her to keep energy high when its like 10 times easier to deploy her kit because the Champion is significantly easier to play!

KlydeFrog1 votes

We'll aatrox could solo drag as soon as it spawned so keep on thinking he was weak

Shiznyte1 votes

I never said he was weak haha! I said he got nerfed a bunch into a bad laner... Way back when with his old passive he was just busted. I agree hes pretty strong still

xGunna13 votes

his problem is in teamfights when he jumps on someone he get deleted

and tank items are not viable on him so he is squishy like an adc but needs to get in to do dmg

meanwhile akali that scales pretty well with ap and can delete an adc in a second and shroud for the next squishy target not to forget she heals 100+ hp from her passive for free

Shiznyte1 votes

certain tanky items can work (like Spirit Visage or Steraks) but I agree his biggest problem is when he goes in... its win or die. Akali has so much mobility that she can yolo in sit invis for like 5 seconds, and zip on outta there. Aatrox's "Outplay" potential is him dying and coming back... it's not very ideal IMO

xGunna11 votes

i played him as a tank several times he just get deleted like has no tank items

only lifesteal items are the best on him and trying to split push rater than teamfighting

Shiznyte1 votes

Ya tank is pretty crappy, I do a bruiser with 3 offensive / lifesteal items and two tanks items one MR like Visage and one Armor sometimes a GA or Randuins if i need it

Sona Ping1 votes

Back then every champion could solo dragon early. The ability to be able to wear through a target doesn't mean a lot, certainly not for a type of mechanic.

Sona Ping1 votes

Those champion's issues are kit design and tuning, just like other champions. A subset having something in common does not mean that is cause of something else. Sustain, in one form or another, is an necessary item in places Mana is something that is added on to abilities, a cost to allow them to be stronger than what they would be otherwise. And mana is not even an issue nowadays on most champions in the first place. The actual implementation of this suggestion and giving Vlad a token mana cost does not solve the problems that Vlad has nor would do anything for the massive list of problems that Aatrox has (nevermind that you are intending this as a nerf to Aatrox) and so on for all the other champions.

Shiznyte1 votes

Mana is a huge issue on some champions... especially mid lane. Syndra rushes the item 3802 for a reason in lane. Mana champions cannot spam this skills in lane to CS and harass they will go oom. So you have to choose, personally i use my mana to harass and farm under tower,and not really to cs minions unless i have too. Champions without mana like Vlad just sit in lane spam skills on minions and actually gain HP and resources for laning instead of your skills actually costing you something like Syndra would.

This post was never about "Fixing" these champions is was more about my concern that champions with similar design maybe released and i don't think their kits are healthy. I could list off changes to vlad that I personally feel would make him a more balanced champion if that's what you want? But lets just be honest he is a very strong champion, constantly in a pro scene... at one point could literally build Spirit Visage and get damage for it... if that doesn't sound toxic in the mid lane then IDK what does haha. My goal is to get the community on board about these champions kits and how unhealthy they are for the game actually.

We've all seen late game Vlad go 1v4 and sometimes he wins... but most times it takes like 4 minutes to kill him and you will probs lose 1-3 teammates in the process! Between his Low CDs, insane sustain, and frequent moments of "untarget-ability" most of the times he is built like a bruiser too with 2 maybe 3 defensive items, but he tanks like a Full build Sion who has been free farming all game haha

More from Gameplay

More by Shiznyte