Please, give Fizz the Nidalee treatment

MakerOfFools·Nov 30, 2015·134 votes·7,060 views

Make his E unaffected by cooldown reduction and he will be balanced. No TL;DR needed, no wall of text. This is obvious.

118 Comments

SorryBoysImLesNov 30, 201545 votes

They can just make it a directional skillshot. Remove the "activate it again to dash in X direction," then it will actually take some forethought on how the Fizz is going to use it.

Going to use it for damage and engage? Aim it towards enemy. So forth. This way a Fizz can't just hop up on his pole, negate a ton of damage, then use that time as a free pass for decision making "Well I was going to use this to back off since he was gonna kill me, but since he just wasted all his CDs I'll just click towards him and kill him."

Then it comes down to: The Fizz has to know his and his enemy champ well enough to know if using to engage/do damage is going to benefit him, or whether he has to use it to back off. None of the "let me decide after I see which skills my opponent blows on my invulnerability."

I constantly see Fizz's panic and use her their E because someone baited it, realizing so once they're in the invulnerability, then use that fact to turn on their opponent. A Fizz should not get potentially awarded because his opponent out-played him into blowing a cooldown all because once he used it, he's still allowed to choose which direction he wants his AOE nuke gap-closer to go in.

It's the equivalent of having a skillshot you can actively change the direction of once it's in flight.

BetaDude40Nov 30, 201511 votes

{quoted}

It's the equivalent of having a skillshot you can actively change the direction of once it's in flight.

I... actually think that is a pretty cool idea. It would require a lot of heavy balancing, but that would be kinda cool to see

Eternal KageNov 30, 20153 votes

Umm. Vel'koz?

Nunya BezwacksNov 30, 20153 votes

Vel'koz can only split his Plasma Fission he cant make it come back t'words him if he missed entirely.

Chuck CharlesNov 30, 201525 votes

well now, I hate to say this because I absolutely hate Assassins, and I hate Fizz. But Fizz's troll pole is exactly who he is. thematically Fizz is this slippery fish. And his Q and E both allow him to easily outplay you. He was kind of already nerfed to where he can't just blow you up with E and Q anymore and now relies on his ultimate a lot more to 100 to 0. Fizz's kit is frustrating to play against, a bit cancer...well heavily cancer...but it is who he is. he's an assassin. Assasin's in general are very cancer. at least with Fizz you can play around his abilities. He can also play around you a lot which is frustrating...but he's not cheese on the level of an Akali, Katarina, or Talon. I mean. Think about those other champs. they mostly just point and click on you and in the blink of an eye you are gone if they have enough dmg. If they don't they die themselves. Assassins as a class are pretty cancerous, but Ekko, Fizz, Zed, all have ways you can play around them. I'm more concerned with Akali, Kat, and Talon than I am with Fizz.

ADepressedLeonaNov 30, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Lux Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-11-30T11:47:54.539+0000)

well now, I hate to say this because I absolutely hate Assassins, and I hate Fizz. But Fizz's troll pole is exactly who he is. thematically Fizz is this slippery fish. And his Q and E both allow him to easily outplay you. He was kind of already nerfed to where he can't just blow you up with E and Q anymore and now relies on his ultimate a lot more to 100 to 0. Fizz's kit is frustrating to play against, a bit cancer...well heavily cancer...but it is who he is. he's an assassin. Assasin's in general are very cancer. at least with Fizz you can play around his abilities. He can also play around you a lot which is frustrating...but he's not cheese on the level of an Akali, Katarina, or Talon. I mean. Think about those other champs. they mostly just point and click on you and in the blink of an eye you are gone if they have enough dmg. If they don't they die themselves. Assassins as a class are pretty cancerous, but Ekko, Fizz, Zed, all have ways you can play around them. I'm more concerned with Akali, Kat, and Talon than I am with Fizz.

Akali Kat And Talon

You mean the champions that are far easier to lock down and stop their damage than Ekko, Fizz, or Zed?

https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=40595741

terkmcNov 30, 201510 votes

Talon actually has incredibly front loaded and one of the fastest burst combo in all of assassin, on par with Rengar

ADepressedLeonaNov 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Talon actually has incredibly front loaded and one of the fastest burst combo in all of assassin, on par with Rengar

Idk about you, but Talon never 100-0'd me in less than a second.

rmch99Nov 30, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowy Poro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-30T14:53:34.032+0000)

Idk about you, but Talon never 100-0'd me in less than a second.

Then you haven't fought a good Talon. I haven't either, but he has almost as fast a combo as Rengar.

ADepressedLeonaNov 30, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Then you haven't fought a good Talon. I haven't either, but he has almost as fast a combo as Rengar.

Shrugs

I've had far easier times shutting down Kat, Talon and Akali than trying to shut down Fizz, Ekko or Zed

In fact, I can't even remember the last time I've seen an Akali.

IntakiNineNov 30, 20155 votes

In fact, I can't even remember the last time I've seen an Akali.

She got gutted into non-viability because, like they do with every assassin, bads on the forums sang the Cancer Anthem.

AckelopeNov 30, 20152 votes

Akali jungle is fun to pull every now and then. Was before preseason 6 anyway, not sure how it is now. I'd go krugs > raptors > red for my first few clears since that gives you smite for krug buff, which helps clearing, and smite for red buff, and the health return is pretty nice. Does leave the opportunity to be counterjungled of your blue buff open to exploitation, though :/

Chuck CharlesDec 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowy Poro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-11-30T13:44:02.132+0000)

Akali Kat And Talon

You mean the champions that are far easier to lock down and stop their damage than Ekko, Fizz, or Zed?

https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=40595741

that was exactly my point. you can outplay zed...and zed can outplay you. Ekko can outplay you, but he can do the same. same with fizz. that is actually sadly...a healthy kit even if it is frustrating when you get outplayed by one of these champs. Zed has a ton of tools to outplay, ekko does, and fizz does as well.

Akali, Katarina, and Talon are both ticking time bombs and deadweights at the same time. if they are left untouched, able to farm and roam to get the gold they need there isn't much your team can do. as a good person these champs waits for CC cooldowns, blows someone up, jumps out. rinse. repeat. Talon and Katarina are particularly scary. Talon just jumps on you and instantly does his combo for your entire health bar in about 2 seconds. you either have to flash or have built defensively. Katarina is a ticking time bomb. the longer the game goes the scarier she is. If you do not lock her down and instantly delete her she will win the team fight with or without ultimate because even her regular combo is insanely easy to do, can one shot late game, and applies a reset to apply this same easy to do point and click combo.

Those are the three assassins in most need of a rework. Leblanc actually has two skill shots so I think she's semi safe even if also frustrating.

But if you are getting outplayed, then its you. you are not as good as your opponent. dont QQ over the fact you cant outplay an assassin. learn to outplay them. I beat bad Fizz's, Zed's, and Ekko's as Lux all the time because I understand how to play against them.

ADepressedLeonaDec 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Lux Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=000900000001,timestamp=2015-12-01T02:09:37.965+0000)

that was exactly my point. you can outplay zed...and zed can outplay you. Ekko can outplay you, but he can do the same. same with fizz. that is actually sadly...a healthy kit even if it is frustrating when you get outplayed by one of these champs. Zed has a ton of tools to outplay, ekko does, and fizz does as well.

Akali, Katarina, and Talon are both ticking time bombs and deadweights at the same time. if they are left untouched, able to farm and roam to get the gold they need there isn't much your team can do. as a good person these champs waits for CC cooldowns, blows someone up, jumps out. rinse. repeat. Talon and Katarina are particularly scary. Talon just jumps on you and instantly does his combo for your entire health bar in about 2 seconds. you either have to flash or have built defensively. Katarina is a ticking time bomb. the longer the game goes the scarier she is. If you do not lock her down and instantly delete her she will win the team fight with or without ultimate because even her regular combo is insanely easy to do, can one shot late game, and applies a reset to apply this same easy to do point and click combo.

Those are the three assassins in most need of a rework. Leblanc actually has two skill shots so I think she's semi safe even if also frustrating.

But if you are getting outplayed, then its you. you are not as good as your opponent. dont QQ over the fact you cant outplay an assassin. learn to outplay them. I beat bad Fizz's, Zed's, and Ekko's as Lux all the time because I understand how to play against them.

How can you outplay someone that can go untargetable every 4 seconds? Who can literally go E Zhonya and E right after?

How can you outplay someone who A) Has a skill that is 1) A slow field 2) A massive shield and 3) A massive AoE stun all in one spell, and B) who can blink out of a fight, or blink right to your team and deal huge AoE damage while having one of the biggest heals in the game

Zed's ult has tons of outplay potential, that's true. But as an assassin, he can very quickly shove his lane and roam far easier and safer than any other assassin in the game while being able to blink out of fights with his shadows.

I mean, that's like sending a solider out to fight with a rusty spoon as a weapon and then blaming him when he gets shot with a gun.

Also you can beat anyone with any champion if their bad.

Chuck CharlesDec 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowy Poro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=0009000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-01T04:26:36.310+0000)

How can you outplay someone that can go untargetable every 4 seconds? Who can literally go E Zhonya and E right after?

How can you out play someone who A) Has a skill that is 1) A slow field 2) A massive shield and 3) A massive AoE stun all in one spell, and B) who can blink out of a fight, or blink right to your team and deal huge AoE damage while having one of the biggest heals in the game

Zed's ult has tons of outplay potential, that's true. But as an assassin, he can very quickly shove his lane and roam far easier and safer than any other assassin in the game while being able to blink out of fights with his shadows.

I mean, that's like sending a solider out to fight with a rusty spoon as a weapon and then blaming him when he gets shot with a gun.

Also you can beat anyone with any champion if their bad.

how do you outplay anyone? you get them when they mis-use your abilities. you use your abilities and positioning to force their abilities. this applies to literally any matchup. Fizz may be untargetable every 4.5 seconds, and have zhonyas for 2.5. but zhonyas will not always be up number 1. number 2, you STILL have a 2 second window to get him after his zhonyas ends. If he is using his zhonyas first he is baiting you into using your abilities on him and is outplaying you because he knows he still has E once his zhonyas ends. keep track of when he uses things. Fizz is untargetable for a good chunk of time but you can still play around it.

all of the abilities you mentioned can and will be mis used unless they are by a god tier player and even then they can be mis used. You are telling me that Ekko uses his W perfectly every time. that a fizz player never ever jumps in when he shouldnt? please. i dont mean this to be offensive, but if you are getting outplayed by assassins, then you need to learn how to bait abilities and use your abilities to force theirs. Leblanc is a good example. if you can safely shove in her wave she has a choice...either try to last hit under tower as Leblanc which is straight up not happening and hit you, or she can use her W on the wave for wave clear. and that is when you punish her. If you can force fizz to use his troll pole to dodge one of your abilities you now have a window where you can generally harass him with autos or another ability even and zone him out. If Zed uses his W to harass you, that has a long cool down and you can punish him during this time. If ekko misses W , sure he can jump on you but he is also in harms fray.

I don't know what else to tell you. land your abilities, make them miss theirs. that simple. by contrast, katarina, akali, and talon literally cannot miss their abilities. talon technically can, but if he has point and clicked to you chances are he is not missing his abilities unless he is full derping it.

i didn't say its easy, but it is simple.

Elahrairah5Nov 30, 20156 votes

This guy is right. It is an identity. He becomes un targetable. He slips out of a tight spot. That is his identity. You guys have to deal with it because it's not likely to change :/ To balance Fizz and maintain his character and role identity you either have to A. Lower all cool downs so he can put out sustained damage and stay in the fight or B. Increase damage so he does not have to dance around so much. No one wants old Q+E=dead fizz back. He is really fine right now. You just don't like the mechanic. Vlad is really much worse because he can gain health, slow, and do damage. while being untargetable. Fizz just has that loaded onto the end when he is vulnerable again.

iamleburkDec 1, 20152 votes

Ehhh why dont they just make it a bigger punishment for getting hit by spells? So he can dodge stuff with his E but if he doesn't he gets punished harder (probably through lower base stats or something).

Silents429Nov 30, 20153 votes

I hate Fizz but he really isn't that unmanageable, just as annoying as any other snowballing assassin if he gets fed.

MLDzXnRRRNov 30, 201511 votes

Ekko and Diana are stronger AP assassins atm. Fizz is just annoying. Not strong - before the nerfs his E+Q could take like 80 % of the hp of any target (including tanks). Now you need the shark to do any dmg. AD Fizz was also hillarious, but RITO gutted him.

MakerOfFoolsDec 7, 20151 votes

Fizz has been going thunderlord can getting back that missing e damage

ShonjlNov 30, 20158 votes

The issue would be Fizz would probably vanish entirely then. You seen what happened to Nidalee after all? She is like Urgot levels of vanish now. While I hate the fish bastard too, he would cease to exist if his pole was on a semi long cd, people would just cc him during his ult before he can even do anything.

If anything, just do what they did with Vlad, make it do little damage, kinda no point why his does an absurd amount of damage when Vlad being the only other kind of dodge like that does literally nothing.

JustMyBassCannonNov 30, 20156 votes

Unless you're just running away, Vlad's pool is actually capable of a lot of damage, too. Eventually, Fizz's can outscale Vlad's, and it's in a burst instead of over time, but considering that Vlad is a DPS mage instead of a burst assassin, that makes sense.

Lady HammerlockNov 30, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The issue would be Fizz would probably vanish entirely then. You seen what happened to Nidalee after all? She is like Urgot levels of vanish now. While I hate the fish bastard too, he would cease to exist if his pole was on a semi long cd, people would just cc him during his ult before he can even do anything.

If anything, just do what they did with Vlad, make it do little damage, kinda no point why his does an absurd amount of damage when Vlad being the only other kind of dodge like that does literally nothing.

1.vlad is resourceless(which adds to reason of no dmg) 2.fizz's E mana cost is quite high at max rank i hate the fish to id just move his ratio's to other place's like take 10% of his E's ap ratio and move it to W

Fun fact of the day:Fizz ult is a knock up

Sir YamazukiNov 30, 20154 votes

{quoted}

1.vlad is resourceless(which adds to reason of no dmg) 2.fizz's E mana cost is quite high at max rank i hate the fish to id just move his ratio's to other place's like take 10% of his E's ap ratio and move it to W

Fun fact of the day:Fizz ult is a knock up

He has health costs, which it sometimes costs more health to use than just being hit. He would actually kill himself early spamming his W/E, his W also has a very long cool down for most of the game.

morris1Nov 30, 201512 votes

If you're spamming W to clear waves as Vlad then I think that's what you deserve.

Sir YamazukiNov 30, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-30T11:17:11.499+0000)

If you're spamming W to clear waves as Vlad then I think that's what you deserve.

The point was, Health is his resource.... I don't see why reading is so difficult and people have to make up an irrelevant statement that has nothing to do with what is being said to pretend they are smart. Having no resource means you can spam with no punishment or cost other than cool downs, Vlad can not do that.

EndogenicDec 1, 20158 votes

http://i.imgur.com/7p20TYD.jpg[/img]

Chuck CharlesDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

http://i.imgur.com/7p20TYD.jpg[/img]

while I get the point you are trying to make here. I want to say that elo shouldn't exclude someones opinion at all. there are many reasons you can be stuck in bronze/silver, etc. I've met bronzies who understand game knowledge super well, but their mechanics and mentality are super bad. and I've met plat players who hold themselves back by thinking they know everything not realizing they are just quite good mechanically.

elo does not always equate to your knowledge and it shouldnt eliminate your right to an opinion either. I disagree with him, but it's not because he's silver, its because his particular stance on this issue I feel is wrong. And thats MY opinion.

EndogenicDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Lux Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=00290000,timestamp=2015-12-02T00:28:47.196+0000)

there are many reasons you can be stuck in bronze/silver, etc. I've met bronzies who understand game knowledge super well, but their mechanics and mentality are super bad.

It is perfectly possible to carry yourself to at least low gold on only things like game knowledge/map awareness.

It also also 100% possible to carry yourself to low gold on purely mechanics alone.

If you want to get to platinum or above, that's when you'll start to need a combination of both these important skills.

Also just because someone is a good talker doesn't mean they have good game knowledge. For all you know they're just repeating what they heard on some website. This is why I say if they truly did understand the game, they would have no problem at all getting to gold even if they have poor mechanics.

[{quoted}](name=TSM Lux Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=00290000,timestamp=2015-12-02T00:28:47.196+0000)

I want to say that elo shouldn't exclude someones opinion at all.

While that is true, they are still opinions backed by the players who have less skill and knowledge of the game compared to high elo players.

If the game was balanced around what bronze, silver, and gold players want, League's current state of balance would be even a bigger nightmare.

Chuck CharlesDec 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It is perfectly possible to carry yourself to at least low gold on only things like game knowledge/map awareness.

It also also 100% possible to carry yourself to low gold on purely mechanics alone.

If you want to get to platinum or above, that's when you'll start to need a combination of both these important skills.

Also just because someone is a good talker doesn't mean they have good game knowledge. For all you know they're just repeating what they heard on some website. This is why I say if they truly did understand the game, they would have no problem at all getting to gold even if they have poor mechanics.

While that is true, they are still opinions backed by the players who have less skill and knowledge of the game compared to high elo players.

If the game was balanced around what bronze, silver, and gold players want, League's current state of balance would be even a bigger nightmare.

just the way you went about bullying him is all i meant. its one thing disagree with someone. its another to say "oh you are low gold, high silver. lets disregard you now"

hopeful4Nov 30, 20157 votes

Hes already balanced

ShrîkeNov 30, 20151 votes

lol

Yuri By MailNov 30, 20154 votes

Balanced on his pole, I assume

Starcall CaseyNov 30, 20157 votes

Non of you play fizz, yet you want him nerfed.... Please. Just play the champion.

AaravosNov 30, 20155 votes

Why? CDR Fizz is probably his most balanced version even if it is fustrating. It is strong, but heavily item dependent and needs time to be rly strong and don't spike insanly with one item like he did is s4. If you are complaining his cdr build you never played against this Fizz item 3001 item 3020 item 3157 item 3100 item 3089 item 3135 with 12/18 mastery with the flat pen thing. 45-50 flat magic pen. and he is dealing true damage to squishy targets after 1 item and abyssal has 2300 gold cost right? And we are complaining about cdr Fizz when something like this exist.

For CarthageNov 30, 20155 votes

Some people still build him straight damage, no CDR.

You remove his E getting CDR and they'll have to lower the base cooldown to compensate. Now he really can just build straight damage and no CDR and not have to worry.

And before the QQ fest of "Why would they compensate him for that, he's so stupid" - he's not overpowered. Just because he's pretty obnoxious doesn't scream "nerf to the ground" - it says "This is an assassin and at some point they're on the agenda to be reworked because they're inherently frustrating to play against". Kalista's infuriating, Zed's a pain in the ass, LeBlanc's cancer, and Veigar makes you wanna slit your wrists - are they all OP? I mean, certain people will cry that they are, but they're all relatively weak.

If you really wanna bitch about somebody, go back to Yasuo - he has the market cornered on being both unfun to play against and completely unbalanced in the hands of anybody who's played him more than twice.

Fizz is not FishNov 30, 20154 votes

Yeah, we need more 42% winrate champs. Nidalee has been the worst winrate champ now.

SithesisLordNov 30, 20153 votes

Once a Fizz jungle thought he could gank me, a low HP top lane Irelia.

He turret dived me.

I walked away with the same amount of HP and +300 gold.

But yeah, just gut him. GUT THE CANCER FISH.

SpecterVonBarenNov 30, 20153 votes

Cancer fish, meet cancer stun.

MakerOfFoolsDec 2, 20151 votes

I guess he didn't press e for your stun+turret shot and intstakill you with q+missing %hp poison.

SithesisLordDec 2, 20151 votes

He must´ve thought i was an easy kill, considering i was sitting at comfortable 112 HP.

rmch99Nov 30, 20153 votes

Also I feel it needs to be mentioned that nidalee's w "no effect from cooldown reduction" change was reverted, because Riot didn't want it to be different than every other ability. (Fine almost every, there's Yasuo's q, but that's different)

MakerOfFoolsDec 2, 20151 votes

Ah, I was not aware they changed pounce back.

Kharn SkyshatterDec 1, 20152 votes

We're giving Fizz a stripper dance and a decent sized bust?

Shrek LuigiDec 2, 20152 votes

Please let fizz turn into a cougar at level one Rito I beg of you

MakerOfFoolsDec 7, 20151 votes

Logged in to upvote xD

NiaphimNov 30, 20151 votes

Or just make him vulnerable to dots that are already applied (is he actually?) and also to AoE skills. It is fine to dodge projectiles, but this just doesn't seem logical.

4th3t0sNov 30, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Or just make him vulnerable to dots that are already applied (is he actually?) and also to AoE skills. It is fine to dodge projectiles, but this just doesn't seem logical.

It just makes him untargetable, it doesn't function like cleanse; every debuff/DoT/ignite already on him remains while he's on the pole.

Basically, it's not Zhonyas, but even then, that's fullblown stasis, not untargetability

AezanthyaDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It just makes him untargetable, it doesn't function like cleanse; every debuff/DoT/ignite already on him remains while he's on the pole.

Basically, it's not Zhonyas, but even then, that's fullblown stasis, not untargetability

Vlad takes damage from dots when in his pool.

Fizz takes no damage from dots while on his pole.

4th3t0sDec 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mega Minun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n5G7Led9,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-12-12T22:33:44.961+0000)

Vlad takes damage from dots when in his pool.

Fizz takes no damage from dots while on his pole.

Check it again, he does, and I have seen him die while mid-trickster; it's the same status as vlad's pool, just with no health cost.