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New Jungle Changes Have Finally Sent a Champion To Guttedville

Darkslayer85·11/19/2016, 7:04:34 PM·69 votes·6,558 views

Before I begin, I'd like to show you all the nerfs Kindred's received in just ONE YEAR. 5.22: Attack growth decreased to 1.7 from 2.2 Health regen nerfed to 7 from 10 5.23: Heal reduced to 43 - 94 (based on level) from 63 - 114 (based on level) Ult CD: Cooldown changed to 160 / 130 / 100 from 150 / 130 / 110 6.2: Dance of Arrows mana cost increased to 35 from 30 E damage reduced to 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 from 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 6.7: Heal changed to 34 - 102 (based on level) from 43 - 94 (based on level) Ult changed to self cast 6.9: Cooldown changed to 4 / 3.5 / 3 / 2.5 / 2 seconds from 2 at all ranks NEW EFFECT: Hunter's Vigor stacks are generated on-attack Hunter's Vigor stacks from movement reduced Duration increased to 8.5 seconds from 8 NEW EFFECT: Wolf deals 50% bonus damage to neutral monsters 6.11: Damage reduced to 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 from 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 NEW EFFECT: Gains + 5 damage per Mark of the Kindred stack (Lamb now needs NINE STACKS to get anywhere near her previous damage) E Damage changed to 40 / 75 / 110 / 145 / 180 from 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 Slow reduced to 50% from 70 6.13: Armor reduced to 20 from 27 Armor growth increased to 3.5 from 3.25 REMOVED: On-hit heal with 100 Hunter's Vigor stacks NEW EFFECT: Wolf's attacks against neutral monsters both slow them and reduce their attack speed, each by 50% for 2 seconds

Even after 6.13, us dedicated Kindred mains continued to play our champion, using our kiting skills to outplay and carry.

https://s11.postimg.org/n9zgiaoc3/Kindred_Mastery.png

But the new jungle and mastery changes have completely destroyed all that.

Let's see, they go oom on raptors/krugs and can be easily spotted by the blue plant. They lost a keystone mastery and their counters (Rengar Khazix) have been buffed, they no longer can farm to make up for a bad early game because respawn times of camps were increased to 150 from 100, honeyfruit and healing smite now means that enemies can keep up with Kindred's strong kiting to stay healthy, and did I mention they go oom?

https://s21.postimg.org/wqs2r7gbb/Winrate_Dip.png

Buff Ideas:

  • Mark of the Kindred - Mark damage lowered to 1% of target's current health from 1.25 (per mark). Every 10% attack speed increases this damage by 0.05%. So at level one with a typical rune page you'd end up with 0.70 * 0.05 = 35%ish damage, which would put you at 1.35, 1.25 w/o them. As you complete your jungle item, this will go up to 1.5, which will scale well into the late game with 2%. Keep in mind you'd be losing AD to complete attack speed, so this wouldn't be as broken as you'd expect.

  • Dance of Arrows - Damage increased to 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 (+25% AD) from 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 (+20% AD). Dance of Arrows now targets the closest enemies to Kindred, instead of targets they've recently attacked. QoL change mainly.

  • Lamb's Respite - Cooldown reduced to 150 / 120 / 90 from 160 / 130 / 100. Now grants Kindred a 20% movement speed buff after Lamb's Respite ends if they've been damaged by a marked champion in the last six seconds. This one might be problematic, but it can be toned down/removed.

TL;DR - Kindred's in dah 'hood with Kalista Azir Aatrox

158 Comments

Oglaf11/19/2016, 7:32:14 PM63 votes

To add insult to injury, post-rework Rengar does the whole "hunt targets down" at least ten times better than her.

Kill five Champs as Rengar and you've gotten a bigger benefit than Kindred might throughout an entire 40 min game of farming!

Kharn Skyshatter11/19/2016, 10:44:14 PM22 votes

She got nerfed since she was outdueling Lee Sin which is Riot's poster child jungle champ for testing.

Project MOBASIM11/19/2016, 7:17:07 PM12 votes

I made a post before about Kindreds state and nobody would listen, I hate doing the same build over and over again, she only has 1 build or she's trash, and then again you have to wait till late game for her to shine which fucking sucks dick, wtf kindred players supposed to do?

Zelorxon11/19/2016, 7:30:21 PM10 votes

Noooo! it's the lack of a mastery identity! which means that warlords is overpowered, kindred is garbage now because fervor is useless, but this means that it's useless just because warlords is too strong! by nerfing warlords we will make fervor great again! /banter

here's what kindred needs http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/uws5W9EE-kindred-doesnt-do-damage?comment=0005

Kindred issues that need to be fixed @riot

-Camps are not 3 targets anymore, so you either waste 2/3 of your Q or it isn't enough -W duration is too short to farm the current 3+ camps -E was nerfed back then when you could afk farm and you didn't had "dead times" in between respawn timers, but this might be fixed with practice -You don't have enough mana AT ALL in order to farm decently and the hp sustain gets crippled when you're facing the infamous raptor camp -Raptor camp -Krugs is somewhat an issue but still manageable -Not a real issue, but the stun on autos is gone -It's definitely too risky to try and contest honeyfruit when you're 200 hp without mana

Maybe more are to come since people stopped playing kindred but for now that's it.

-Make the Q deal more AOE to camps, and hold it back vs minions and champions so it doesn't get too strong -Extend W duration -Make E a decent ganking tool because right now it's just a nice bonus, not a real threat -Improve mana/hp sustain, there is no kiting when a camp literally sticks to you with high attack speed and tier2 boots -Improve early game presence, ok that you're supposed to farm, but afk farming because you couldn't gank and be STILL hugely behind that's some baloney right there

Shadow Hazard11/19/2016, 10:10:18 PM8 votes

Firstly for the Q nerf that made it scale with mark count you need 9 marks for it to break even, it doesn't make it any better since the more average games were kindred is doing okay is around 8 marks. Thanks to the kindred's mains group doing the math and testing finding that each mark adds about 10 damage average per auto, you will need one extra mark to compensate for that first AD growth nerf. And counting the W nerfs also it is closer to kindred needing 10-12 marks to be in a proper late game power that they used to have, so overall 13 wasn't too far off of a number of marks for kindred to be back at their previous power. Honestly reverting 2 of the previous nerfs would do the trick of putting kindred back into a good place in my opinion. Considering that riot kept targeting the the early game power of kindred which reverts would bring back to a degree and have a habit of treating reverts the same as selling a loved one there wont be any. Going forward with an idea that could align with riot wanting kindred more into a scaler and to benefit from the fervor changes to a degree, an idea I would want to push is. Passive: Each mark gains 0.01% per 2 bonus AD Q: each bolt also applies mark damage to target

Swiftstrike411/19/2016, 10:57:30 PM6 votes

She went from incredibly strong, to a pretty weak jungler. The nerfs were necessary, but I think if they gave her heal back she will be back in a better state.

The problem with Kindred was she was a must pick or a must ban in really high elo because of her early map pressure and kill potential.

She is pretty bad right now, but almost all the nerfs were necessary because her early game was so amazingly good.

Primaquarius11/19/2016, 11:00:41 PM6 votes

The heal removal made no sense

Wolfram Oxford11/20/2016, 2:14:02 AM4 votes

Kalista Welcome

Chembaron Yamada11/21/2016, 12:16:48 AM3 votes

Suggestion: If the arrows from Kindred's Q hit a jungle creep, they bounce 1 time to an additional target. Would improve her clearing of kruugs, raptors (2 problematic camps) and wolves (as a side effect, shouldn't make the clearing ridiculous), while leaving red, blue and gromp unaffected because there are no additional creeps to bounce to.

Would even fit the name of "Dance of Arrows".

Pnakotic11/19/2016, 7:21:28 PM3 votes

You are not alone.

Weathered11/19/2016, 8:29:33 PM3 votes

{quoted}

Right ballpark power wise. Power drops off too hard over the course of the game though which classes with intended jungle carry playstyle. Might be appropriate to shift power later as a result (get them onto more multiplicative builds with Crit perhaps as another scalar?).

Edit: Actually, arguably on the soft side in terms of power. Another possible argument for Fervor being undertuned versus Warlords.

ItsLambChop11/20/2016, 4:07:12 AM3 votes

Bring my waifu back rito

Leon Etoile11/20/2016, 6:04:28 AM3 votes

Kindred has 10 JG champs beneath her...

She isn't Kalista status

Shuten Ðoji11/20/2016, 7:05:11 AM3 votes

I wouldn't be so salty if they hadn't given Rengar a better version of their passive. Caps at 5, doesn't even need to bother thinking about who to mark, gives arguably better rewards.

Feigii11/20/2016, 7:27:56 AM3 votes

As mentioned A LOT on these kind of posts (and on the Kindred subreddit). The best solution would probably be to add some sort of scaling to the passive, either AD or Attackspeed (as mentioned in this post itself). Or as suggested by many others give them the Hunter's Vigor back but instead of a heal a movementspeed burst that decays over a short preiod of time. And/or give Q an extra arrow (though that would feel kinda wierd hiting 4 targets with Q and only 3 with runaans)

WoonStruck11/19/2016, 9:35:08 PM2 votes

All of the high MMR Kindred mains say she got better.

Get better and stop complaining. BotRK is getting a buff soon.

Zoeeee11/19/2016, 11:04:20 PM2 votes

The heal at release was incredibly toxic for bot and solo lanes, as well as jungle invades. I think it speaks to deeper problems in her kit, and how damage focused it is. Also making the ult not target was a big nerf to how she played mid-late game.

AIIan11/20/2016, 6:47:04 PM2 votes

{quoted} Even after 6.13, us dedicated Kindred mains continued to play our champion, using our kiting skills to outplay and carry.

Nah, I didn't. I only played them (thanks God, finally someone's not calling them "she". Wolf is a person too.) botlane as an adc, where they worked surprisingly well. Alas, the removal of 7 armor and their self-sustain destroyed that.

Kingdom Corn11/20/2016, 4:19:07 AM2 votes

kindred isn't the only one that got nerfed. Master yi, nidalee, mord, nunu, xinxhao, gragas, mundo and fiddle were all nerfed according to win rates on http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle

J Epstein11/20/2016, 4:33:59 AM1 votes

the problem with champs like kindred is she is so hard to counter due to her "lol, i got a no death ult lulz".

Tryndamere was fine since he was melee and it was only self inflicted.

Kayle can use ult on other champs, but that's fine since she has no mobility,

butKindred has mobility, range, insane dmg, and the cheap ult.

don't be mad that a champ has so much built power, and can remain strong.