Does anyone else think it would be nice if essence reaver built from brutalizer+forbidden idol or brutalizer+vamp scepter. I just think it would give a better early game build path for essence reaver so champions that want it can build it earlier. Plus, since primarily poke champions build reaver, the armor pen and cdr from the brutalizer build path would be awesome. I just think it would make more sense for essence reaver personally.
Silents4299 votesI am not comfortable with an item that gives CDR, armor pen, life steal and mana return on hit 
Honestly I get the point to your idea, but holy jesus this item has literally everything they could need and they would spiral out of control with power.
Kingsgrave1 votesI am not comfortable with an item that gives CDR, armor pen, life steal and mana return on hit
Honestly I get the point to your idea, but holy jesus this item has literally everything they could need and they would spiral out of control with power.
Even tho it gives Mana on hit, it benefits every AD Melee Champion. Even Riven/Zed/Rengar would build it normally.
Imagine if it gave 10% CDR
Suddenly this becomes a super popular build on a lot of Champs: 
SHUTTERS
LICENSED HOOKER1 votesWould be the only accept-ion to straight up copying mobafire builds
Silents4294 votesWhat do you imagine if it gave 10%? It does though?
Fisk3 votesI highly doubt it would ever be built on non mana champions.... It wouldn't be that efficient, similar stat line to youmuus, just mana regen and lifesteal instead of crit and the active. It really wouldn't break the game but it might give some champions, like the ones mentioned earlier, some issues, but honestly they could be buffed and nerfed accordingly. I don't think we should remove the possibility of a potentially really useful item because it would be abusive on a select few.
Reginscythe1 votesummmm... essence reaver already gives 10% CDR.
Drackolus1 votesSHUTTERS
You'd better close those shutters. You might get cold, and nobody likes shuddering.
NommyPancake1 votesM....
For Irelia:
I would say that 
and 
are still better offensive items than Brutalizer-To-Essence Reaver.
Besides Irelia doesn't lack mana in mid-late game, making the Mana Gain unless.
For Pantheon and Xin Zhao (Assuming both of them Jungler): There is jungle item build from Brutalizer already, and I don't see how the New Essence Reaver are much better, it also offered mana gain (from jungling).
Xin Zhao is more of auto-attacker rather than AD caster. I doubt he would benefit from mana gain.
To summarize it, I doubt any of those three champions will benefit from mana gain of this new items. I also don't think that this item can substitute other items that these champions are currently building.
Example, Irelia usually builds like this:
, , 
, 
, 
, and 
.
Which items would you guys take out in favor of Brutalizer-to-Essecen Reaver?
Silents4291 votesNot 100% sure on Irelia but it would be strong for her even without the mana sustain.
I am pretty sure you misunderstand Xin and Pantheon though, they don't only jungle and this item benefits both auto attackers and AD casters. Xin would especially benefit more and given his current state he becomes a monster or underpowered very easily.
FirexSaber1 votesMaybe it wouldn't be useful on those champions, but I feel like it might be strong on say, Jarvan. He scales well off armor pen and if you could get mana back on hit, you could be a lot more spammy with his E+Q. (Of course this would be for lane Jarvan, not really jungle Jarvan. )
Solidair34 votesthey've mentioned that the reason they don't do this is because ER doesn't have armor pen, so it feels strange for it to go from an armor pen item to an item with no armor pen.
Personally, I don't think Essence Reaver being BAD is necessarily the problem so much as that Blood Thirster is too good. Between the health shield and a whopping 20% lifesteal, it's clearly the better of the two items, especially on top of the fact that mana is a lot easier to come by late game for an adc than it is early game, when you need it but won't have it.
It would also help if there was a bami's cinder style pre-ER mana item to smooth out the transition, but instead it goes from the same items that make a Bloodthirster and it's like very suddenly "NOW YOU GET MANA" and it's like what?
Such an ill-conceived item, I don't think ER should have been released in this state. Riot needs to do some work on it.
SoMNia3 votesYes, this is my biggest problem with Essence Reaver: the lack of any form of mana regen in the build path. It's an expensive item, and anyone who builds it gets no mana sustain until it's completed. I WOULD like to see something akin to Bami's Cinder to smooth this out. Maybe something that builds from a long sword, gives ~20 AD and a flat 2 or 3 mana on-hit? And then combine that with Brutalizer and Vampiric Scepter. Let the 10 flat arpen carry into the final build so BT isn't just better all the time, but raise the price to match BT (which is okay, because now the build path is much smoother and you don't get screwed if you're forced to back before you can complete it. For the record: 10 arpen is worth ~120 gold, and BT is currently 300 gold more than ER.
Ahurath1 votesThis is acually a quite good idea. I agree that it takes way to long to finalize for to have any meaningful effect in lane. Since you won't ever go oom in a fight since they don't last that long anyways.
NorthernDruid3 votesYeah, make it Brutalizer's high AD upgrade, with Youmu's being it's splash of utility upgrade.
Keep the lifesteal, lower the AD a bit (no lower than 65 though).
And let it have the low armor pen.
Lower the mana restore a bit if needed.
Currently it's competing to directly with Bloodthirster, making it's usefulness tied to strongly to Muramana's toggle and the benefits of CDR.
Tuning Brutalizer into ER's buildpath solves the problems of two items at once. Brutalizer's lack of a high-AD upgrade, and Essence Reaver's lack of benefits Bloodthirster doesn't grant more of.
Currently, Essence Reaver's strongest point is Muramana synergy, and being 300 gold cheaper than Bloodthirster <.<
Give it some armor penetration to help provide unique strengths other high AD items don't grant.
Scimitar and Maw provide MR and extra survivability in the form of either cleanse or magic shields. Infinity Edge is vital for Crit builds and Bloodthirster is the king of Lifesteal. Essence Reaver only provides any unique benefits on very ability heavy champions who need the CDR, or special synergy with Muramana. And even then, it's unique benefits come in too late in the item's build path to be something you can aim for at all.
I love ER and love to use it instead of BT when I think I can get away with it. Or when I really feel like having that CDR.
I should probably try it out on Riven to round out her CDR (Youmu's+Lucidity boots+ER+masteries =40% :O)
masterdragon4812 votesThe biggest problem with ER is it pales in comparison to BT.
I agree, having it build out of brut would make it actually worth building. Give it the stats to make it a good tier 3 and tada!
I wouldn't build it on riven, you waste half your gold on a passive you can't use. If you want the extra 10%, use runes or get a SV; that at least scales with your lifesteal.
NorthernDruid1 votesEh, on Riven, or anyone else who doesn't need the mana regen passive, when compared to Bloodthirster, you're trading 10% Lifesteal and a potential shield, for 10% CDR and 300 gold.
On an AD caster like Riven, I'd trade 10% Lifesteal for 10% CDR any day (especially when I already have 12% from Hydra and 10% of all physical damage dealt from 
), and the shield passive may or may not be worth 300 gold, depending on how much use you get out of it usually.
I wouldn't build it as a replacement for a defensive item, or as a hard alternative. But If i'm feeling like getting more Lifesteal, and I don't have 10% CDR yet, i'd take ER over BT.
On Riven anyway.
Also I don't have CDR runes because runes are expensive, and so are rune pages.
masterdragon4812 votesI see. I have been playing the game long enough to have all the runes worth having, and maxed my rune pages. So i guess I'm slightly better off than you are. And I think that the lifesteal and shield from BT is more likely to keep you alive the the 10% cdr is. but to each their own =]
Kingsgrave1 votesEh, on Riven, or anyone else who doesn't need the mana regen passive, when compared to Bloodthirster, you're trading 10% Lifesteal and a potential shield, for 10% CDR and 300 gold.
On an AD caster like Riven, I'd trade 10% Lifesteal for 10% CDR any day (especially when I already have 12% from Hydra and 10% of all physical damage dealt from
I wouldn't build it as a replacement for a defensive item, or as a hard alternative. But If i'm feeling like getting more Lifesteal, and I don't have 10% CDR yet, i'd take ER over BT.
On Riven anyway.
Also I don't have CDR runes because runes are expensive, and so are rune pages.
I think you are massively understimating how powerful new ER would be with
Literally any AD Burst character could build all 3 and have massive Armor Pen, boots their choice, lifesteal and max CDR
Riven will build it if it gives her CDR + Lifesteal + Armor Pen. She will probably still build Ravenous after it. She isn't going to just ignore ER if it gives her everything she wants.
NorthernDruid1 votesI'm talking about the current ER in the post you're quoting <.<
And any champion archetype can easily find three items which will enhance their role greatly.
Literally any ADC champion could build 
and crit half of the time for 250% dmg, and have tons of AD, Lifesteal and AS. And get to build boots of their choice
Literally any Bruiser can build Hydra+Triforce+BotRK and then have great dps and lifesteal while still being able to build mostly defensive items afterwards.
Literally any Mage can build Athene's/Morellonomicon+Zhonya's+Deathcap and have tons of AP, decent amounts of armor+MR, half capped CDR, almost all the mana regen they'll ever need and the stasis active of Zhonya's. While still getting to build boots and stuff.
Meanwhile, if you're rushing ER as an AD caster (even with building it out of Brutalizer and giving it armor pen) into youmuu's and cleaver, then you're not getting items which enhance your burst much more directly (Hydra or Triforce).
Any champion is powerful with three full offensive items fitting their role.
Personally, if i'm a burst AD caster i'd rather have 5% CDR from masteries, CDR boots and triforce than Black Cleaver.
If I rush ER+Youmuu's+Cleaver I don't have any strong amount of lifesteal or extra burst beyond my kit.
Riven might be able to deal if she also has , but Riven's not excactly burst for most players.
Youmuu's Ghostblade and Black Cleaver both give mid-low amounts of AD anyway. So if those are among your highly prioritized items then you're basically getting one items worth of AD for the price and sots of 2.
I figure lowering ER's AD to ~65 somewhere would be sensible if it gets Armor pen. from brutalizer, maybe along with nerfing the mana return rates slightly.
Fisk1 votesJust dropping in to say that this item would probably never be built on manaless champions. If it became that gold efficient, it would be broken on certain champions like pantheon for example. It would have a very similar stat line to youmuus, possibly ten more ad or twenty more ad, but the mana regen would really make it useful. By the way, lucidity boots+cleaver on riven will max her cdr if you have taken it in your masteries which most rivens do. Or cleaver+youmuu+masteries will get you to 35%.
disregardable2 votesYeah, Jayce needs a buff.
Irelia Bot1 votesbrutalizer+vamp scepter and change the name to executioner's calling 40 AD 10 armor pen 10% CDR Active: For the next 2 seconds auto attacks apply grievous wounds that last for 3 seconds. (60 second cooldown)
Because Essence Reaver is really a failure of an item due to it not really giving anything that is needed and is beat out by something in everything it does.
executioner's calling on the other hand would have a place if it was allowed to be at least a half decent item stat wise.
Fisk2 votesThat true, but I think the mana actually is useful but the build path really really sucks. I think champions would build it (as the mana is really useful) if it had a better build path and you could get it earlier in the game.
masterdragon4811 votesI don't think Essence Reaver as an item concept is a bad idea at all. In fact, I think its very good. Giving mana regen to ad champs makes them too effective but forcing them into auto range to recover mana is considerably more fair.
Its a good item, the problem with the item is it has the same build path as blood thirster and pales in comparison to that item. The higher combine cost of BT is worth the +10% life steal and shield.
I think if they perhaps toned down the lifesteal/damage on the item and had it build from brutalizer, it might actually see a lot more play.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesHave it build from 
+ 
and make Baby Reaver.
Then have that item have a recipe for Baby Reaver + 
to make
USG Morta1 votesthat makes it a 4th tier item. there are no 4th tier items.
TwitchInMyPants1 votesHonestly literally any early game option that gives mana with your stats would make the item 20x better. The effect is useful but not after midgame when you suffered a farm deficit saving 3000 gold whilst being out of mana all day.
Kingsgrave1 votesThe problem with this is that the following would rush this literally every game:
Sure it could help out 
but the AD burst characters benefit far more from it
This item could also shift us out of the tank meta slightly because you just gave AD Burst characters every single stat they ever wanted.
WildJester1 votesHonestly essence reaver should be changed. I NEVER see people useing that item.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesI'd just like Brutalizer to be a good rush item again. Unless you're one of the 15 or so champs that can fully utilize ghost blade, brutalizer isn't worth picking up as first item any more.
What's worse, the build path for black cleaver is really bad early game now. I used to build it on Quinn / Cait top to counter tanks. But neither of them get any noteworthy use out of the mallet.
Gorgannan1 votesPersonally, I think they should nerf essence reaver into the ground and make it a starting item, like dorans blade.
rampaging poet1 votesAdding armour penetration might help Essence Reaver, but it could still suffer the same fate as Zephyr. Zephyr is an expensive item that adds to a whole bunch of stats and has a useful passive its build path completely lacks. However, it directly competes with several different items that do all of its jobs as well or better. Most champions that need sustained auto-attack damage would rather have a Phantom Dancer or a BotRK. Most champions that need cooldown reduction would rather have a Black Cleaver or Nashor's Tooth, or even Iceborn Gauntlet. Most champions that want Tenacity will just buy Mercury's Treads. Most item builds don't have room for a generalist item like that.
Suppose is changed to + + 
, loses a pile of AD, and gains flat armour pen and passive mana regen so none of the stats disappear. It still can't compete with and 
as a high-AD lifesteal item. It can't compete with
and for armour penetration. There still aren't many people that can justify it as a CDR item. The only thing would would have going for it would be mana sustain. Those changes might be enough that it sees more use on the champions that can actually use those stats, but the majority of AD champions just can't afford the item slot for it.
A nuReaver along those lines could be good on mana-hungry bruisers because it provides a large number of synergistic stats in one slot, but you really do need to be able to make full use of all of it or else you're missing out on better stats in the areas you actually need.
Fisk1 votesIt would actually exist as a mid/early game power spike item similar to youmoos. This would make it so it doesn't have to compete with bloodthirst and could be used as an early game items for champs like panth, yorick, jayce, blue ez, or someone similar to spike early. Its best on poke champs who just want to sit back and sustain, it would still be a niche item but would just have a place to be built on champs like that where it can't really be built now since its so expensive.
agbudar1 voteswhen are you people gonna realize that essence reaver is an item for 
and blue 
and not a to go to adc item?
UrPalAl1 votes HEAVY BREATHING
Old Man Teeto1 votesHmm...
Tbh, they just need to create another end-game Brutalizer item and create a mid-game Essence reaver leapfrog item.
Ahurath1 votesI think it's a somewhat uselss item. Sure the mana is great but still if you have trouble with not having enough mana then you should just get more efficent with the use of your mana instead.
arcinex1 votesEssence Reaver should be out of Doran's blade. It'll make good use of the starter item that everybody will eventually sell for minimal gold.
StealWolverine1 votesthat is the whole point of the dorans items. highly efficient low level items that dont build into anything. having to sell them later is the tradeoff for the early bonus.
S2C2Xd9KOy1 votesI really just don't like the fact that building Brutalizer early does give you some decent early game damage that isn't very expensive, but the fact that it literally only builds into Ghostblade and Warrior enchantment realllllly sucks.
AFK Push1 votesfor the love of God no. Please don't buff