Topic.
I am a big Evelynn fan and super tired of her getting nerfed when there's such a huge percentage of the field that does everything she does BETTER.
This change would make the Dark Frenzy cost more of a COL tuning rather then just another nerf. Please consider it.
Ipols6 votesI can't play evelyn, but they said they want to nerf her, not to buff her
The Yetii Rider6 votesYeah, calling for compensation when they're intending to lower her power level and early ganking pressure with the change isn't a great plan.
Maybe if you were asking for a slightly better power curve in the mid or late game, but having her W not break her stealth would just make her even more obnoxious in the laning phase.
BlackEyesBlue2 votesTheir justification for this nerf is that she's "Too mana efficient" and that is all.
Eve is one of my mains and I really don't understand where all the hate comes from? She can't damage you before you see her. She can't 100 - 0 you in 1 second the way Rango and Shaco can. She can't 1 v 1 about 45% of the champ pool after mid game (Unless your SUPER fed!). Her only CC is her ult, which has a HUGE cool down. And her "un-balanceable" passive has no escape potential!
This change I'm proposing would fix at least that last problem. I've been chased across half the map as Eve when trying to escape because they were close enough to see me, and using dark frenzy just gave them better aim for skill shots!
Besides, Garen has a better version of the same move, It's free and grants a silence on a MUCH shorter CD. :P
The Yetii Rider1 votesTheir justification for this nerf is that she's "Too mana efficient" and that is all.
Eve is one of my mains and I really don't understand where all the hate comes from? She can't damage you before you see her. She can't 100 - 0 you in 1 second the way Rango and Shaco can. She can't 1 v 1 about 45% of the champ pool after mid game (Unless your SUPER fed!). Her only CC is her ult, which has a HUGE cool down. And her "un-balanceable" passive has no escape potential!
This change I'm proposing would fix at least that last problem. I've been chased across half the map as Eve when trying to escape because they were close enough to see me, and using dark frenzy just gave them better aim for skill shots!
Besides, Garen has a better version of the same move, It's free and grants a silence on a MUCH shorter CD. :P
Generally speaking, if a champion has mana, all of their abilities should cost mana. Even Soraka has a mana cost on her W and it costs 10% of her max health.
Eve is just one of very few assassins who actually use mana (Talon is basically a worse Zed at this point, Kha isn't as strong as Rengar, Elise and Nid have no cost on half their abilities, Ekko is primarily played a a tank.)
Diana, Evelynn and Ahri are the only real mana using assassins left, and Diana and Ahri are both mana hungry. Eve is just being brought in line.
Battlecast Sona2 votes"talon is basically a worse zed"
except Talon scales into lategame and can carry your team whereas Zed falls off because his burst is limited to one target
#bringbacktalon
Saianna1 votesOnly his ultimate is limited to one target. He can still burst down several enemies if they happen to be in bad spots (where shurikens, hydra, slow are)
Battlecast Sona1 votesYou just described Talon only Talon can do it from stealth.
Saianna2 votesWhile Zed can be in 3 different spots for 2 seconds.
I've played Talon alot of times. I'm not saying he's weak, but if I were to choose who'd I play for fast kills I'd pick Zed.
DonutChan1 votes[{quoted}](name=A Vitriolic Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mNV9y4Gt,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-09T18:12:01.380+0000)
"talon is basically a worse zed"
except Talon scales into lategame and can carry your team whereas Zed falls off because his burst is limited to one target
#bringbacktalon
Implying he doesn't get bitchslapped out of the game the SECOND everyone gets armor items. (And with these tank/bruiser items being as good as they are, not much reason not to do so)
Rosewell83 votesBy making her incredible mana hungry and forcing her to require Blue buff in order to be able to fight for long periods of time? She's not strong at all, she's incredibly weak. You have to be a main to even be able to not feed like a troll. She needs some buffs on her ability and some nerfs on he passive. A nerf on her passive would be that once she was in range, she becomes visible instead of that stupid Exclamation mark. You still couldn't see her coming very well, but once she's there you can react better.
The Yetii Rider1 votesBy making her incredible mana hungry and forcing her to require Blue buff in order to be able to fight for long periods of time? She's not strong at all, she's incredibly weak. You have to be a main to even be able to not feed like a troll. She needs some buffs on her ability and some nerfs on he passive. A nerf on her passive would be that once she was in range, she becomes visible instead of that stupid Exclamation mark. You still couldn't see her coming very well, but once she's there you can react better.
Yes, champions who have mana should generally require either building mana or mana regeneration to fight for an extended period of time, that is the point of mana. Amumu, Sejuani, Ekko, Diana, Wukong, Pantheon and pretty much every other jungler who has mana runs oom fast without blue, that's why blue exists. It's also why the majority of junglers in pro and higher elo don't have mana (Rek'sai, Lee Sin, Rengar, Spider Elise, Nidalee, Gragas had to have his base mana pool buffed to 400 at level 1 to even jungle well).
Koechophe3 votes"Champions who have mana should generally require either building mana and mana regenertation to fight for an extended period of time"
And every adc ever. None of them are mana reliant. Eve is basically forced to build runeglaive now just because of the mana restore, and ANY jungler that builds runeglaive generally feels pretty good on mana. Except, apparently, now eve. The mana cost on her Q is insane for a skill that is not only her primary damage, but spammed over 1.5 seconds, and her base mana/mana regen is abysmal because you're (in theory) supposed to rely on stealth. This is just riot throwing salt in the wound of all the previous eve nerfs we've seen.
The Yetii Rider1 votes"Champions who have mana should generally require either building mana and mana regenertation to fight for an extended period of time"
And every adc ever. None of them are mana reliant. Eve is basically forced to build runeglaive now just because of the mana restore, and ANY jungler that builds runeglaive generally feels pretty good on mana. Except, apparently, now eve. The mana cost on her Q is insane for a skill that is not only her primary damage, but spammed over 1.5 seconds, and her base mana/mana regen is abysmal because you're (in theory) supposed to rely on stealth. This is just riot throwing salt in the wound of all the previous eve nerfs we've seen.
First of all, Ezreal and Urgot (and Jayce) are all marksmen that rely heavily on mana and build it constantly.
That said, all of the champions you named other than Gragas and Elise are not AP champions, and Gragas and Elise are both built tank.
Evelynn is an AP champion, she has access to items like Seraph's Embrace, Morellonomicon, and Athene's Unholy Grail. If you choose not to buy mana regeneration because you think it doesn't give you enough AP, then that's your problem. You choose burst damage over sustained damage in that case. Because the longer you are out of base, the more damage Morello will give you over Luden's.
BlackEyesBlue2 votesEvelynn is a HYBRID champ and is meant to be built around enemy defences.
The Yetii Rider1 votesEvelynn is a HYBRID champ and is meant to be built around enemy defences.
And whenever hybrid champions who can successfully build around enemy defenses are popular, they get nerfed (See also Jax, Akali, Kayle).
YumaS2Astral1 votesGenerally speaking, if a champion has mana, all of their abilities should cost mana. Even Soraka has a mana cost on her W and it costs 10% of her max health.
Eve is just one of very few assassins who actually use mana (Talon is basically a worse Zed at this point, Kha isn't as strong as Rengar, Elise and Nid have no cost on half their abilities, Ekko is primarily played a a tank.)
Diana, Evelynn and Ahri are the only real mana using assassins left, and Diana and Ahri are both mana hungry. Eve is just being brought in line.
Talon is not a worse Zed. Talon's burst late game is higher and cannot be avoided by specific items, not to mention it is AoE. It is just that having a good early game is much more valuable and Zed is a lane bully while Talon is easy to bully early game.
OperationDEEZ11 votesTalon is basically a worse Zed at this point
Yep, this guy's an idiot. Move along, nothing to see here.
qetzel2 votesWe believe Eve should be somewhat more mana gated than she is at present, now that Runeglaive's in the game. We don't want to create a situation where she's OOM all the time, but adding some cost (as opposed to the current free) to the W, thereby limiting either its use or her use of other spells a bit, is we think appropriate.
Power wise we also believe Eve's too strong at present in regular (non professional) play. We don't make changes driven purely by statistics (we aim for data informed, not data driven's). Eve's certainly right up there in terms of raw win rate though, with from memory the 4th or 5th highest winrate in the game at present when comparing champions as played by people with substantial experience on them. Eve's got a pretty steep mastery curve, so if her overall performance looks average it often means that her performance when played well is excessive even for someone on a champion they've played a lot (a phenomena also strongly demonstrated by other champs like Azir and Le Blanc who, if they're showing a 50% win rate in solo queue, are almost certainly very overpowered).
That wasn't all. They want her to be more mana gated and they think that she is too strong at present in regular play.
Also, Eve gets a cooldown return mechanic, a larger speed boost and the ability to ignore unit collisions. Anyway, we shouldn't just compare two similar abilities. They require different power levels for different kits.
BlackEyesBlue1 votesDark Frenzy DOSN'T ignore unit collision.
qetzel1 votesFunny. The Wiki claims it does. Is that a bug or is the wiki just wrong again?
Saianna1 votesShe can't 100 - 0 you in 1 second the way Rango and Shaco can.
Shaco cannot do that either. Full AD = silly shiv damage, he has only his Q for sudden burst of damage Full AP = only shiv damage (for ganks, cause you won't get a chance to setup jitb).
Battlecast Sona1 votesyou know Shiv scales with AD and AP, right? both of them?
Saianna1 votesYet it deals magic damage (similar to Evelynns ravage).
Problem with AP shaco is, no matter how feed you are, it's simply impossible to 100-0 someone with just Shiv. Yes, you will chunk enemy for HUGE amount of HP, but nowhere near insta-kill.
While with AD shaco your shiv works more as a slow than damage. Your main source of damage comes from Q (with sheen). And that deals similar damage as AP Shacos Shiv, but AD damage. Still cannot 100-0 in 1 second anyone.
Shaco is very good at picking up fleeing low hp targets tho. Or trolling enemies.
BlackEyesBlue2 votesI was killed 6 times in one game yesterday EXACTLY the same way...
I'm ADC, I'm at the edge of the team fight, Enemy Shaco appears behind me and I'm dead before I can do anything! 1 AA and 1 Shiv 100 to 0'ed me. (He built full AD and had Crit runes.)
We even had vision wards set up near by, he worked around them. That's the big difference with Eve's stealth. She can NEVER approach you completely unseen! Frankly, I don't know why Riot hasn't' made all stealth work this way!
Saianna1 votesI'm guessing it started to happen mid-late game, right?
You really should have build randuin after second death. Adc or not, that item saves lives.
Battlecast Sona1 votesYou're really undercutting shiv's potential to do damage in the early game. It does a lot of damage before anyone has any resistances.
Saianna1 votesI've playd alot of games with Shaco and 1 thing I am certain of: If you don't spec for shiv early, then it's close to useless lategame (like rushing Ludens Echo).
Also while building AD Your Shiv damage is really low trough all stages of game. Simply because as AD Shaco you first want to get something like sheen -> Triforce and in lategame you'll get about 200 bonus AD tops in total shiv should deal +/- 400 damage without resistances. But if you count it deals magic damage and reduce damage by about 40-50% (from armor) then it isn't something super-deadly.
It's not that i underestimate Shacos shiv. I just played him alot.. Alot of times to know some stuff.
Sorry, my bad. I've totally forgot about Hydra..
The Yetii Rider1 votesI've playd alot of games with Shaco and 1 thing I am certain of: If you don't spec for shiv early, then it's close to useless lategame (like rushing Ludens Echo).
Also while building AD Your Shiv damage is really low trough all stages of game. Simply because as AD Shaco you first want to get something like sheen -> Triforce and in lategame you'll get about 200 bonus AD tops in total shiv should deal +/- 400 damage without resistances. But if you count it deals magic damage and reduce damage by about 40-50% (from armor) then it isn't something super-deadly.
It's not that i underestimate Shacos shiv. I just played him alot.. Alot of times to know some stuff.
Um, what? Every AD Shaco I've seen has rushed Ravenous Hydra...
Battlecast Sona1 votesI'm not talking about lategame, I'm talking about at level 9 when you first max it. With the AD items (that you'll be building on jungle Shaco because who in their right mind rushes trinity force in the jungle as Shaco...), it does a decent amount of damage. I'm not implying that it's huge, but a deceive crit + tiamat + shiv and a few autos will kill a lot of squishies from 100% HP. I've played a fair amount of Shaco in my time as well and while I definitely am aware that it falls off, it doesn't fall off until later on in the game.
RyzeRework1 votesTheir justification for this nerf is that she's "Too mana efficient" and that is all.
Eve is one of my mains and I really don't understand where all the hate comes from? She can't damage you before you see her. She can't 100 - 0 you in 1 second the way Rango and Shaco can. She can't 1 v 1 about 45% of the champ pool after mid game (Unless your SUPER fed!). Her only CC is her ult, which has a HUGE cool down. And her "un-balanceable" passive has no escape potential!
This change I'm proposing would fix at least that last problem. I've been chased across half the map as Eve when trying to escape because they were close enough to see me, and using dark frenzy just gave them better aim for skill shots!
Besides, Garen has a better version of the same move, It's free and grants a silence on a MUCH shorter CD. :P
Her w is a massive boost of speed so that's an escape when u mix high damanage mobility and tankiness its hard to balance a champion lol eve is too mana efficienct but riot made her that way cause of her passive
BlackEyesBlue1 votesEve is NOT tanky! Heck, She's acctualy super squishy. Some just build her tanky and trade DPS for staying power. W/o a tank build she's about as defencive as Yi with much lower damage...
RyzeRework1 votesEve is NOT tanky! Heck, She's acctualy super squishy. Some just build her tanky and trade DPS for staying power. W/o a tank build she's about as defencive as Yi with much lower damage...
even if u build her damange the sheild from her ult and her build path that includes a rylais abyssal and frozen heart is pretty tanky
Varalessia2 votes{quoted} to lower her power level and early ganking pressure with the change
have you seen a mid/late game jungle evelynn? It's absolutely dreadful, she becomes a walking slow bot and a tank, despite you know, being an assassin. So if she falls off a mountain mid game, and you're lowering her early game power, what exactly is she supposed to do?
The Yetii Rider1 voteshave you seen a mid/late game jungle evelynn? It's absolutely dreadful, she becomes a walking slow bot and a tank, despite you know, being an assassin. So if she falls off a mountain mid game, and you're lowering her early game power, what exactly is she supposed to do?
She's supposed to suck. Riot doesn't WANT Evelynn to be good, because the vision system completely doesn't support her right now and assassins in general are both horrendously common in pre-30 games (because of smurfs) and also horribly unfun for pre-30s to play against (because they are, by nature, low counterplay champions). If Riot wants to keep attracting new players to this game, they need to keep assassins weak to prevent the rampant smurfing and account botting that's going on.
PokladnicaZla1 votesHow about reverting her Q damage nerf from a few patches ago?
The Yetii Rider1 votesHow about reverting her Q damage nerf from a few patches ago?
Considering she has that damage nerf now and they STILL want to nerf her, I don't think it's a great idea.
PokladnicaZla1 votesI srsly don't understand their nerfing logic.We have a champion: a) who is toxic and pretty popular=doesn't get nerfed,while on the other hand we have b) a champion which is toxic and not really played=get's nerfed.
The Yetii Rider1 votesI srsly don't understand their nerfing logic.We have a champion: a) who is toxic and pretty popular=doesn't get nerfed,while on the other hand we have b) a champion which is toxic and not really played=get's nerfed.
It's a light patch. They can't nerf EVERYONE.
PokladnicaZla1 votesThe unseen nerf is the deadliest my friend....
Kitten of Evil1 votesThey still haven't figured out how to balance perma-stealth (a permanent Raptor's buff/immunity to green wards is very strong), so until they do, it uses most of a champion's power budget.
OperationDEEZ11 votesShe's already squishy and has no sustain, she doesn't need to be mana hungry too.
Kitten of Evil1 votesRight, they need to just fix perma-stealth, then she can be balanced properly.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesThere are so many champions that can use perma-stealth so much better than her.
iainB851 votesI vote no on this -- she'd be able to slip into lanes SO easily at that point and have great positioning.
kaltenashes1 votesher passive makes her regenerate mana when she's invisible...i couldnt care less for they place mana cost on her w...
PokladnicaZla1 votesI agree that she should get some kind of comepnsation,but would't this a bit annoying during early game?
Autrah Fang1 votesnext thing you know they'll be reducing her ult shield and removing the AP scaling from her E, and the AD scaling from her Q (with no compensation). then Eve will still be "too strong" cuz she's still got her perma-stealth even though she'll be even more worthless than she already is. then Riot will nerf her even more.