remember when shaco mains were crying because the rework "gutted him" but then it was a buff?
55% winrate and theyre still trying to get buffs http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eDyXIXyAZq0/hqdefault.jpg
83 Comments
Ahristocats10 votesuntil people realise that shaco mains aren't the one asking for shaco buffs but rather random people who tried to play the hardest champ in the game
S0kaX64 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m4yblYI9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-24T18:35:18.509+0000)
the hardest champ in the game
I'm sorry, but that spot is reserved to Azir.
Wet Dryman5 votesShaco's skill floor isn't high (after his rework it is even lower) but his skill ceiling is incredibly high. When you're skilled enough you can do more stuff than Azir with similar skill level.
Other than that I would place Vlad as harder than Azir.
sit kid107 votesOther than that I would place Vlad as harder than Azir.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/993/875/084.png
Wet Dryman5 votesSince his tank build was gutted (and thank Riot for that) he needs to build AP to be revelant thus being squishy as hell as close ranged mage with no gapclosing ability and no defensive abilities other than very long cooldown W that takes 20% of his HP anyway. You need to constantly flank their team, make 100% usage of your damage amp from ult, manage your health costs because heal timing ,and time your abilities properly because one little mistake will cost your life and impact (his heal won't proc in the hour of need). His abilities (besides R) are also telegraphed and kinda delayed to actually do so much damage. His laning phase is weak as hell and that can be easily abused.
Azir on the other hand despite weak early game damage was always very safe with his zoning potential, dash, range and slow, his abilities aren't delayed nor heavily telegraphed and his kit has response for every threat, every counterplay or even counterbuild enemy can pull off. He is basically hyperscalling lane bully. Unlike Vlad he can negate every response from enemy team.
I might be in error but this is how I personally see things.
Xavanic2 votesNah, hardest champ is still teemo, but legit, try to kite properly on Cassiopeia against all these tanks and assassins, along with these adcs building straight crit or lethality now, I would say cass is the hardest champ in the game atm
Wet Dryman9 votesIts hard for me to tell who is the hardest champion in League. I just wanted to share my opinion that Azir is overrated in this category due to number of tools in his kit (yes he is hard, but not as hard as people make him to be).
SzGamer2278 votesMore tools translates into more room possible mechanical mastery. Saying Vlad has a high skill ceiling is kind of like saying Garen has a high skill ceiling. It takes a knowledge of the champions strengths, weaknesses, capabilities, etc. and a lot of practice with decision making to succeed with champs that don't have any mechanical demands, which gives them a higher skill ceiling then at first glance, so champs like this can be harder to play effectively than a more mechanically complex champion. (How do you play against a team of players that know you want to run straight up to them and fight them from close range?)
With champions with a lot of mechanical possibilities, the skill ceiling comes from exploiting advanced mechanical techniques. There is still a learning curve when it comes to knowing how the champ performs and making decisions based on that, and in order to get a sense of that you have to also be playing that champ to their highest mechanical limits, which is why they're seen as having higher skill ceilings. Once you reach that mechanical mastery though, the decision making element becomes less demanding because there's so much you can do with the champion, versus champs who are limited by a lack of mechanics and are wholly reliant on decision making.
On a side note, for the champion that requires the most skill without having any mechanical demands, I say it's Singed. Just watching through this Singed guide the kind of map awareness and judgement you need to have good strategic decisions while playing Singed makes my head hurt.
Sexy Jack Rabbit7 votesToo add onto that, the difference between Azir and Other champions is that imo, he has WAY too many tools to justify how "hard" he is too play. Before the nerfs it was not hard to succeed as Azir. You summoned your shoulders, Q'd and then poked down the enemy. Run away with E if you ever get ganked.
Nothing about Succeeding as Azir was ever really difficult (talking pre-dumpster) because he had a tool in his kit for EVERY SINGLE Situation in the game.
There's nothing actually that hard about a champion who is prepared for everything.
My point is that playing Azir when he's not garbage tier is not really that hard, if anything he's on par with Orianna honestly. However making massive outplays and utilizing EVERY tool he has is quite difficult, but only because there is simply so much in his kit to use. Using all of it, especially in one teamfight is quite hard to manage as Azir.
There's a significant difference between mechanical skill, and strategical skill.
Azir has so much in his kit to justify having the highest mechanical skill floor in the game, but Strategy-wise that honor falls onto other champions like 
or 
, Their kits don't have tools that apply to every situation, so making their kits work in a way that DOES, is what makes them so deceptively hard to play.
SzGamer2272 votesExactly what I'm saying. There are merits that contribute the to skill ceiling of both, but if you master a champ's mechanical demands, then their wide array of tools means that decision making becomes less critical because you can do so many things so well. But to reach the mechanical mastery to do that and practice it enough to get a feel for it is something not everyone can do, so it doesn't mean their skill ceiling isn't high.
Wet Dryman2 votesI wasn't talking entirely on Vlad's skill ceiling, I said that he has really high skill floor. Without much knowledge about this champion and stuff you will be useless whole game long because of his atrocious laning phase and how hard it is to utilize your damage in teamfight due to telegraphed, delayed, close ranged abilities and the thing that you can be peeled off anytime and if your timing and positioning is shit you will die. All he brings to the table is unreliable damage dealt in close range. Even in one of the patch notes if I remember correctly it was stated that Vlad is one of the hardest champions to play (if I'll find it then I will post it below).
Azir in my opinion has lower skill floor because of number of the tools and safety that isn't hard to utilize. Of course his tools, how to use them properly in any situation is hard but it says more about skill ceiling (just like in Zed's case). All you really need to contribute is make your laner feel miserable because you're lane bully and then use impossible to miss ult as disengage or in Anivia's fashion blocking the backline from fight. His damage output is also much more reliable, safer and anyone can utilize it.
Found it: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-73-notes look for Vlad section.
What makes champion hard is their skill floor. As a newcomer you will be total useless garbage as Ryze, Taliyah, Vlad, Riven, Bard because how high their skill floor is. You need to play several games to at least mean something in game. Garen (i'll ignore the fact that he is weak ATM) has really low skill floor, probably the lowest in game after Warwick's rework. Newcomers will do some meaningful actions. His skill ceiling is probably only animation cancel with Q and E.
Azir before his gutting had in my opinion medium skill floor and ridiculously high skill ceiling. There is much to learn to become better with this champion but due to being ranged with decent gapclose, tones of zoning, self peel and reliable damage he wasn't so hard to use somewhat effectively once you got used to autoattack-soldiers synergy.
SzGamer2271 votesWith the distinction between skill ceiling and skill floor, your argument makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying what you meant!
macromite3 votesthe hardest champion is malphite.
he is rock solid afterall.
Xavanic1 votesRight now Azir shouldn't be counted as hard, as hes literally just a bad champion atm, his kit has been gutted so hard that even people with say...500 games on him still struggle to win most match ups against a competent laner
RageLessPlayMore1 votes[deleted]
Xavanic2 votesThe teemo one was a joke, i was reffering to Cassiopea, shes insanely hard to kite properly with when so many tanks that can get in your face with no issues at all
Lauchmelder1 votesUnlike Vlad Azir needs 4 items to be somewhat relevant though.
An Azir without Nashors, Rylais, Berserkers Greaves and Void Staff isn't gonna kill you that easily.
Wet Dryman1 votesBeing relevant doesn't mean only doing damage. Unlike Vlad he has one of the best disengage and zone tool in the game. This thing alone makes Azir more relevant pre 4 items than Vlad as the latter brings only damage to the table. Azir is also a lane bully due to his sustained damage, zoning potential and safety (range and dash). Being a lane bully also makes him more relevant than Vlad.
Vlad doesn't have any CC (besides a weak slow), he needs his core items (rylai, protobelt, zhonya, rabadon) to start being a serious threat and that doesn't happen untill level 16 in most scenarios.
SSShutTheDuckUp3 votesAdd 
to the list
SzGamer2272 votes
and other similar champions all fall in the category of no mechanical mastery / high strategic mastery champions. There's a huge limit on what they can do, so it all comes down to how they do it, which makes them deceptively difficult to play well.
PermabannedGaren2 votes
There is very little high strategic potential with Garen.
He's just easy.
The other three are fairly valid, particularly Singed because he is mechanically braindead. Yi is deceptively mechanically difficult to play well.
SzGamer2271 votes If you have to be on top of an enemy to deal damage, you have no deceptive or sudden forms of mobility to get there, and every enemy knows to keep you at a distance, how to you reach Challenger tier? A Bronze player can't reach Challenger just by playing Garen, so what's the secret? Only high ELO Garen mains know : ^)
PermabannedGaren2 votes
You don't, because the champion is just bad. That doesn't make them hard.
I actually kind of doubt there is a single Garen one trick in challenger.
SzGamer2271 votesMeh, the highest Garen one-trick is in Plat 1, but that's still higher than 98% of the ranked playerbase which means there's still a hidden mastery curve involved.
There is a Wukong one-trick in Challenger that has a 58% win rate with Garen as his second (which is actually higher than his win rate with Wukong) so Garen is viable at all ELOs if you're good enough at playing him.
Cosmic Warper1 votesShaco's skill floor isn't high (after his rework it is even lower) but his skill ceiling is incredibly high. When you're skilled enough you can do more stuff than Azir with similar skill level.
Other than that I would place Vlad as harder than Azir.
having good game sense isn't tied to a champion. To play shaco well you need good game sense, not good mechanical ability. He's not hard at all
Wet Dryman1 votesThat's what I'm saying. He isn't hard because his skill floor is really low. But the things you can do with him makes his skill ceiling bonkers.
Zed has for example has medium/low skill floor, all you have to do is place your W behind you, go in with R and hit E few autos and Q and then disegange with W for your opponent to die. But here is the thing that with proper shadow placement, hitting multiple shurikens and acting as fast as possible you might actually outplay their whole team (they will miss their CC on you, you will kill maybe 2 targets etc.) while you'll safely escape. His skill ceiling is incredible.
Shaco has really low skill floor. No skillshots, long ass stealth, big damage, big presence. You might QW autoattack a bit and then execute with E and disengage with ult or Q or even both. But your boxes placement (preparing for teamfights, for escape routes or chain CC with triangle place pattern), clone micro to make it act natural, to fool your enemies and zone your opponents after it dies in teamfight is really hard to do. You can watch some games on youtube from one of the best Shaco players: Pink Ward to see what I mean.
Meddler gave us the easy definition of both skill floor and skill ceiling:
"Skill floor: How good at a champion you need to be to start playing them somewhat effectively. Tends to be concerned with first handful of games especially (e.g. as my first game on Anivia will I feed and have no fun or be weak but make some meaningful contributions?).
Skill ceiling: How long you can keep getting meaningfully better at a champion. Tends to be concerned about players with hundreds of games (e.g. if I've played 200 games as Singed am I still learning new ways to perform better?)."
Blåbæret1 votesShaco's skill floor isn't high (after his rework it is even lower) but his skill ceiling is incredibly high. When you're skilled enough you can do more stuff than Azir with similar skill level.
Other than that I would place Vlad as harder than Azir.
Shaco is an easy champ.
Wet Dryman1 votesIf you read what skill floor and skill ceiling means you would know that I said that Shaco is an easy champ. The thing is that despite being easy he allows people who learn him even further to do additional tricks which may be not as easy to utilize (this is what skill ceiling means).
Who is Taliyah9 votes 
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesi must go main azir now.
as a marksman.
NvestmentPlanker1 votesI've only tried to play Azir one time and it was a miserable experience against a Zed. He most definitely is a difficult champ to use and i respect players who can do that shuffle move. in terms of skill ceiling and maximizing what a champ can do, I'd have to throw Nidalee/Lee Sin/Yasuo/Aurelion Sol/Zed/Shaco/Riven. I know I know. I'll catch flak for Riven, Yasuo, Lee Sin, and Zed but those champs have a very high skill cap in my opinion. You can always tell a major difference in somebody that just casually plays them and then someone who knows that champ inside and out. They do shit you've never seen on them.
Troll for Trump2 votesKalista's harder than Azir.
UkeNeverSeme1 votesFrom a decision making pov shaco is harder than azir. So is ivern and a couple of other champs. Twisted fate comes to mind.
So sure azir light be super hard mechanically, but some other champs have weird ass play patterns you bred to know and use correctly.
LA Losty1 votesNot sure if i think Azir is the hardest one, but he is certainly up there. Champions like Lee Sin requires a lot of mechanics as well (and before you hate, im talking about actual mechanics, not just the lame R+Q+Q)
Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votesShaco the hardest ? Many shaco main were crying (Shaclone include). But obviously many random join their crying fiesta (like with Aatrox).
Ahristocats3 voteswell not the hardest but shaco's macro is really insane
as for shaclone i remember that he complained about riot turning shaco into an AP assassin, and he's right because if you're a shaco main you will realise the difference of fun between AD and AP shaco
they nerfed AP shaco and now shaco mains are abusing a tank build, which is getting nerfed of course in exchange riot are buffing a fun build of shaco ap shaco ofc
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votesu mean Micro (controling both Shaco and his clone), if yes i can agree.
Don't know for shaco mains... but i know how its funless to play against shaco tank and shaco ap.
QuickenedBlade1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m4yblYI9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-24T18:35:18.509+0000)
hardest champ in the game
LMFAO
Press Q to them, auto attack them, targeted E, then press R and continue to press abilities in no particular order or situation until target is dead. Press Q to escape.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesWell depends on how you define hardest. Swain for example is mechanically pretty simple but incredibly hard to play and carry on. I started playing him in december when he had like 1% playrate and his average winrate in the first 50 games were 44-48% going up to 55 on mains. Lot of champs rely on decision making and macro play rather than mechanically play. For shaco i wouldn't call him the hardest in any of those. His mechanics are rather simple, maybe tricky to know every place you can Q and right positioning of boxes and clone management but other than that considering his current state it's easy to pop off on him
SirΤeemο1 voteshardest champion on the game????? WOW are you for real masters division? boosted animal
Ahristocats1 votesWOW are you for real masters division?
yes i am, i figured that i'm good at playing the game unlike some people
Clementine1 votesD1 in EU, which translates to about Gold 3 in NA xd
Ultra Rapid Fyre3 votesit wasnt a buff till he got his numbers changes. On the initial release it was a huge nerf
Further more, the only reason it appears to be a buff is most people play shaco as AP now because AD is very difficult to pull off 1 shots like old shaco.
Your analysis is shit
normie sIayer11 votesthe most common build now is 
or something depending on enemies
Ultra Rapid Fyre1 votesthe most common build now is
go check your facts then come back
The Ecdysiast1 votesAs AD, you still have a controllable minion that can use on-hit effects, in addition to 75% of your base damage.
"Illusion"
Roam Support1 votesna I was a shaco main last season and the wrecked him after rework but now he is in a stable place
Roam Support1 votesbut still it took them so long to fix it that I don't main shaco anymore.. QQ
normie sIayer17 votes56% winrate is stable? you mean op
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