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Ancient Coin / Nomad's Medallion worries me

Reaper Soraka··25 votes·6,310 views

Some PBE changes to the Coin:

Ancient Coin No longer gives +25% base mana regen Now gives +2 gold per 10 seconds [Changed Effect] UNIQUE Passive - Favor ** Enemy minions killed by your allies sometimes drop coins that give either 20 gold or 8% missing mana (minimum 15).** Ancient Coin line quest added: Quest: Earn 650 gold using this item and upgrade to Nomad's Medallion. Reward: Favor is upgraded to Emperor's Favor and you receive an Elixir of Skill.

Disclaimer: I don't have all of the information, so I really hope my assumptions are wrong on the passive: Favor.

Currently coin will give you passive gold even if your adc doesn't cs well. It was a good item for low and high tier games. But even in lower tier games once that first blood is taken, one ADC gets a item 1038 while the other gets a item 1036 Now one side has to play very careful (even under their own tower to avoid poke) so they don't just feed more kills. the lane has been determined unless the losing team's jungle can assist a couple times to bring them back into the game. Even if we changed it to when enemy minions die, any support will be taking a huge risk just to try to use their support item. Every single time.

I don't know if I like where this is going. The day I have to overreach in lane to pick up a coin/mana icon is probably the day I quit playing squishy supports in the support role. The range on pick-up will need to be at least 500-600. if you want risk added make it like 400-500.

Any thoughts or experience with the new item? I'd love to put my worries to rest on this issue. Maybe I'm just looking at it the wrong way-- it's now a tank support item?

35 Comments

Clementine9 votes

As someone who's played a lot of games with the new Coin (mostly all on Soraka and Rakan), even when behind I don't find it being a problem picking up coins. Soraka's selfheal, Janna's shield, and Rakan's shield and mobility make it relatively easy.

Also, coins don't have to drop by being killed by ally champs. They can drop however it dies and you're near.

Reaper Soraka11 votes

Whew great to know! Thank you

Clementine7 votes

WAIT LOOK WHO IT IS

Wimbledofy1 votes

so the item information is wrong or was it changed again recently?

QuickenedBlade1 votes

pushed to tower and getting fucked, what do u do?

FilDaFunk8 votes

It's like Rito hates passive supports Janna Soraka

See? They haven't made one such a long time.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Riot has a raging hard on for Janna though.

Heckin Support1 votes

{quoted}

It's like Rito hates passive supports Janna Soraka

See? They haven't made one such a long time.

Because they can be insanely hard to balance, not to mention they aren't really that interesting to watch (LCS). I love both of those champions, and Soraka is actually creeping up to be my most played champion. The elo I'm in right now, people don't seem to want to buy any GW items to counter me so it's pretty easy wins.

FilDaFunk1 votes

{quoted}

Because they can be insanely hard to balance, not to mention they aren't really that interesting to watch (LCS).

Being interesting to watch should have no bearing on game balance.

Oblivious Denial1 votes

Riot is considering making changes to the game to make LCS games more active and bloody, since a decent amount of the time, games are just static and macro intensive.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Enchanters are basically passive supports. Sorta a mix between them and mages

Alesya3691 votes

Being purely defensive = passive? Rofl no.

Troll for Trump1 votes

They don't have to be defensive.

Alesya3691 votes

Janna has to, she is absolute shit when trying to do any damage to enemy in lane or outside of it, she will just waste mana trying to use her E to poke with AAs, use W or Q or whatever she can think of.

Soraka is on a better spot because her Q is mana efficient and can be used to poke at the first (ONLY FIRST; unless you are maxing it for some reason...) levels, and she has to land it in order to heal herself up and empower her W so as result she will feel a bit more "offensive" than Janna but that "offensiveness" has only one purpose, more healing. She can also sometimes chain CC someone with Qs and E to secure a kill but that rarely ever happens and she needs to have clear and significant advantage to do that, same with Janna and her own W into Q and maybe R, but that is rare unless your enemies are bad as fuck.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I meant her Ult+Q is a powerful engage tool.

BUt yeah, she's a better disengager.

Chembaron Yamada5 votes

First: Even if your adc doesn't cs well, you still get the coins. I read that the coins drop if minions close to you die without you being the one doing the last hit. If they die by minions or an ally doesn't matter in that case.

Second: It is supposed to make supports take some risk. That is intended. Spellthief forces you to get in range of the enemy to use your poke for the gold, Relic Shield forces you to walk up to the minions and execute them. Coin was the only support item that didn't made you take any risk to get the gold. You could just stay way back behind your adc and generate gold passively. Especially against supports like Soraka and Janna, this is pretty frustrating and uninteractive for the enemy.

Coin is still supposed to be bought by enchanters, but they want to force these champions to interact with the enemy in any way. If you don't want to pick up the coins, you can go for Spellthief and interact with the enemy by using your skills to poke. And don't worry, Riot already stated that they will make changes if necessary to make these risks not a death sentence for the squishy enchanters. Like adjustments to pickup range. But they actually don't expect that much of a struggle. For example: Janna can create a "safe window" for herself to pick up the coin by shielding herself while doing so.

All I want to say: Don't panic. It is new and you will have to adjust to the change, but if it puts enchanters too much in the gutter, Riot will intervent and fix it.

Reaper Soraka1 votes

Yeah. Coin collection is my real worry here. Inplane said it best:

{quoted}

So if you get put behind with item 3301, you might as well sell it for item 3303? That's nice.

This is pretty much what is on my mind at the moment; I really just have to wait and see.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

First: Even if your adc doesn't cs well, you still get the coins. I read that the coins drop if minions close to you die without you being the one doing the last hit. If they die by minions or an ally doesn't matter in that case.

Second: It is supposed to make supports take some risk. That is intended. Spellthief forces you to get in range of the enemy to use your poke for the gold, Relic Shield forces you to walk up to the minions and execute them. Coin was the only support item that didn't made you take any risk to get the gold. You could just stay way back behind your adc and generate gold passively. Especially against supports like Soraka and Janna, this is pretty frustrating and uninteractive for the enemy.

Coin is still supposed to be bought by enchanters, but they want to force these champions to interact with the enemy in any way. If you don't want to pick up the coins, you can go for Spellthief and interact with the enemy by using your skills to poke. And don't worry, Riot already stated that they will make changes if necessary to make these risks not a death sentence for the squishy enchanters. Like adjustments to pickup range. But they actually don't expect that much of a struggle. For example: Janna can create a "safe window" for herself to pick up the coin by shielding herself while doing so.

All I want to say: Don't panic. It is new and you will have to adjust to the change, but if it puts enchanters too much in the gutter, Riot will intervent and fix it.

Minions probably = ally.

Plus isn't Raka supposed to bully? Q spam hurts a lot in lane, especially if it's maxed. Heals mean she's great at trading and trading poke.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

That's how it should be. But there are players just spamming their heal all day way in the back of the adc. Same with Janna, using their tornado and their shield out of range from the enemy. There is no interaction in this lane. They get the gold no matter what and just recall to get mana and then come back to lane.

That's why this is a good change. If you play like that and don't go in the range of the enemy at all, then they will starve completely because they won't be able to get gold anymore. In my book, that's a good change.

Marshbouy4 votes

Oh god. Favor sounds like it's going to make bot even more snowbally.

Reaper Soraka2 votes

Yeah. It sounds like it will be great if you win, but your own shovel for your grave if you lose.

The Bardic Gay4 votes

My problem with this item is more that the quest associated really just doesn't compare to the power of a regenerating shield or a 50% Ms boost that can be repeated 3 times. I mean, and early skillpoint is nice, but it's a one time numerical boost that becomes flat out irrelevant if the game runs late, while the others offer survivability.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meep Slaver,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lrWNdREF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-04-23T20:42:21.325+0000)

My problem with this item is more that the quest associated really just doesn't compare to the power of a regenerating shield or a 50% Ms boost that can be repeated 3 times. I mean, and early skillpoint is nice, but it's a one time numerical boost that becomes flat out irrelevant if the game runs late, while the others offer survivability.

I think that's going to be more champion dependent. For example, Sona gets a big chunk of CD on her normal spells reduced when she levels her ult. I personally find those spikes to be worth getting sooner.

Another potential reason, Since coin reward is a static reward. (or seems to be) Their doesn't seem to be anything preventing your from completing the coin quest, and then swapping to one of the other two items. (Except for the part that it's probably not gold efficient to do so)

inplane3 votes

So if you get put behind with item 3301, you might as well sell it for item 3303? That's nice.

FilDaFunk1 votes

{quoted}

So if you get put behind with item 3301, you might as well sell it for item 3303? That's nice.

At what point is it just easier to just auto the enemy? Especially since the heal seems to have been removed.

kurthl33t1 votes

Yeah, as soon as I saw the announced changes I thought, "What are people going to build on Soraka, then?"

They're completely reworking which type of champions would build Ancient Coin--which isn't inherently a bad thing, but they're not giving backline supports who don't poke a good alternative.

FantasySniper1 votes

Ancient Coin line might even replace Spellthief's Edge at this point.

Zyra has 8.5 Mp5 and 334 MP at level 1:

|Stat|----------------|Edge|----------------|Coin| |- |Mp5|| 2.125 || 7.5 |Gp10|| 10 || 20 |Unique|| 5 AP || 5% CDR | || 10 Dmg ||

Edge and Coin practically fill the same niche now, and it's obvious which is superior based on stats alone.

Arduno1 votes

Isn't the tower considered a ally?

Bard R Friday1 votes

It does mean whenever enemy minions die, it's just worded in a confusing way. It's written like that to tell you that it doesn't work if the person holding coin kills the minions.

StrangerL1 votes

I assume Elixir of Skill only works on non-ultimate ability, right? If so, it is somewhat useless compares to the other 2 items new quest reward, cuz some supports has one spell that we don't care about leveling them up based on how they scale.

Janna Q Rakan W Soraka E Sona E Nami Q

The later two can go item 3303 line. I guess we will see how auto attack feel after the changes they said they are going to do. But, I expect more supports might just go item 3303 line.

only zhule1 votes

I have two issues with the new coin line. The first is the drop rate of coins, assuming that they drop from EVERY enemy minion killed near you, we are looking at 6-7 coins per wave. Given that each coins gives you either 20 gold or 8% missing mana, that means that each wave could be worth about 120 gold, if this is true that means that 7 waves would be enough to proc the quest and get the potion. Even with a 50% drop rate that means each wave is worth 60+ gold to the support, with passive gold gain that adds up pretty fast to getting more items (and that free skill point).

My second worry is that coin could be abused, start the game with it and just last about 10 mins. By this point you should in theory have your potion for a skill point. Once that's done, chuck the coin line and buy one of the other ones. You keep the free skill point and still get all the wonderful bonuses from the other quest lines.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes
  1. It is not as RNG as it seems. The first coin is random, the coins after that are alternating between gold and mana.
  2. The drop rate of coins surely isn't 100%.

So there is not really as much gold in the waves as you assume.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

  1. It is not as RNG as it seems. The first coin is random, the coins after that are alternating between gold and mana.
  2. The drop rate of coins surely isn't 100%.

So there is not really as much gold in the waves as you assume.

So long as Riot makes it clear what the % rate is on drops, things should be fine-ish. You are probably right and it's not a 100% drop rate. That said, if the rate is garbage... lets say 2 per wave, then the item line is fairly meaningless since you won't be able to proc it till VERY late in the game (guessing something around level 13+). The opposite is true as well though, if it IS 100% then you can reasonably proc the quest completion by the 10-12 min mark, which is a HUGE power boost to be rocking an additional spell level.

Same basic issue holds true with regards to gold income. If the drop rate is bad, the item line is horrible since you will be even further behind your allies in gold income; But if the drop rate then early wave net you just slightly lower gold income then your ADC (assuming they land all their final hits), and even mid game you have a pretty healthy gold income compared to other supports.

Till I know more, i'm going to assume the coin line is feast or famine. You either net a coin nearly every minion killed or you generate maybe one tick of bonus gold per minion wave.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

I dont get it, only passive supports get coin, why are we making them walk up into a minion wave to get gold?

Oblivious Denial1 votes

I think this is Riot trying to make tank supports come back to the meta since we haven't seen them in awhile. Think of it, when was the last time an Alistar was in LCS? I know Thresh is picked by some supports like Bio, but that's a pocket pick and definitely isn't standard.

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