Instead of nerfing Cinderhulk/Devourer, why not change other enchantments?

Gusicles·Aug 17, 2015·6 votes·773 views

Jungle items like Cinderhulk and Devourer are said to be too overpowered. On junglers themselves I do not think this is the case; they get less gold than laners and less experience. The problem is that these two items are far better than the other enchantments. Magus is good on only a small number of AP junglers, and Warrior brings nothing special to the table. These should be given something better!

Maybe for Warrior, it could have the old Lizard passive for extra bonus true damage? Magus could have a passive similar to** Luden's Echo***. It would be cool.

Laners might be able to abuse this, but then again, it takes away a spell to use Smite, and it's extra gold they need to spend. The tradeoff is fair, I believe.

18 Comments

Variks the LoyalAug 17, 20155 votes

Cinderhulk isn't at all overpowered. It never really was, just 1), the champions who used it were strong, and 2), the other enchantments just couldn't compete with it because they were old and outdated, and Cinderhulk was new and unique.

Nowadays, Cinderhulk and Warrior can't compete with Runeglaive and Devourer. The only champs who build Cinderhulk are Rek'Sai (And she builds Warrior half of the time), Gragas, and sometimes Elise. Other jungle tanks just don't see a lot of play anymore. Sejuani was nerfed badly, and Nautilus was retooled as a top/support.

Warrior needs retooling, Devourer needs slight nerfing, and Cinderhulk needs slight buffing. I don't necessarily know what buffs/nerfs, but I know they're needed.

GusiclesAug 17, 20151 votes

Well, tanky junglers are still ok imo, but Devourer junglers _**are **_starting to become more meta... But you're right, I think if they added a bit more health to it and changed the other enchantments, it would be a lot better.

RocketRelmAug 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk isn't at all overpowered. It never really was, just 1), the champions who used it were strong, and 2), the other enchantments just couldn't compete with it because they were old and outdated, and Cinderhulk was new and unique.

Admittedly, Cinderhulk WAS kind of obnoxious on release. That was almost entirely because the sun fire was WAY too good in pvp though, and right now it's in a bad spot.

Warrior needs retooling, Devourer needs slight nerfing, and Cinderhulk needs slight buffing. I don't necessarily know what buffs/nerfs, but I know they're needed.

pretty much agreed.

Variks the LoyalAug 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Admittedly, Cinderhulk WAS kind of obnoxious on release. That was almost entirely because the sun fire was WAY too good in pvp though, and right now it's in a bad spot.

pretty much agreed.

Yeah, retooling the aura to deal less damage to champions and more damage to minions and monsters was a good power shift. Now, it just needs buffing in the health department.

Or maybe slap Tenacity on it. That may help.

As for Warrior... Make it a Hydra. And the Cleave does more damage to minions and monsters, less damage to champions, but the Crescent does the same as Ravenous.

Crowe StalkerAug 17, 20151 votes

Riot tried changing Warrior to remove the flat armor pen and instead give a 6% of physical damage dealt as a burn effect but it was removed for some reason.

I think Warrior just needs scaling damage, it gives a bundle of immediate stats but later on it's the weakest enchantment by far. Cinderhulk needs 5% bonus health if anything but otherwise I haven't played this patch so...

HaIlMonitorAug 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot tried changing Warrior to remove the flat armor pen and instead give a 6% of physical damage dealt as a burn effect but it was removed for some reason.

I think Warrior just needs scaling damage, it gives a bundle of immediate stats but later on it's the weakest enchantment by far. Cinderhulk needs 5% bonus health if anything but otherwise I haven't played this patch so...

To many people bitch about rengar being over powered for them to go through with something like this lol. That effect might actually make rengars full damage build over the top and personally I would rather have warrior be weak then them buff it to just nerf the 2 jungle champs that use it.

Trash ADC BtwAug 18, 20151 votes

Actually, Devourer is more gold efficient on purchase for the stats than Warrior. Even at purchase, Devourer is better.

Shadow GilgameshAug 17, 20151 votes

"buff the other enchants" was a good call once Cinderhulk was nerfed enough it wasn't taken top lane.

Right now if we buffed everything up to Sated Devourer state it'd be a fucking mess. Sated is in a state where quite a few champs can basically AFK farm for 20 minutes then proceed to carry the game. I don't want cinderhulk, runeglaive and warrior to be that strong, because then we're just right back to last season where the jungler is like 75% of what makes a win or loss, as opposed to the 20% you'd expect in a 5 man team.

GusiclesAug 17, 20151 votes

Well, Devourer is better than the old Feral Flare meta. It's better than the other enchantments sure, but if the other ones were buffed it would just be "ok" in comparison. Along with all the new itemization for tanks and soon assassins/marksmen/mages coming out, I think this could be a step in the right direction.

Trash ADC BtwAug 18, 20151 votes

the new items are NOT tank items. They are bruiser items.

Take it from a Rammus main, Cinderhulk needs a bit of a buff, not a nerf like what's incoming. Devourer needs a major nerf, because of all the items it's the one that can legitimately win the game for you. Runeglaive and Devourer are the meta now, outside of me and one other jungler I've played against, no one in my past 50 games has used Cinderhulk.

Sniper 0Aug 17, 20151 votes

Cinderhulk isn't even on sated's level atm xD

Teridax68Aug 17, 20151 votes

I partially agree with this. Warrior is obsolete, and has been overtaken by Cinderhulk even on most AD damage-dealers (even assassins pick it, which is a clear red flag), so it could definitely do with a rework. Despite being fairly recent, Runeglaive also needs to change completely, imo, since I think it locks out a lot of potential AP junglers and isn't particularly stellar on its own (it would make more sense for an AP jungle item's power to based off of spells and not basic attacks). However, I also think Cinderhulk and Sated Devourer might be a bit too good right now: Cinderhulk is mostly alright, but it does tend to overshadow every other pick come mid-to-late game due to the power placed on its multiplier, so I think it's okay for it to be nerfed and have more power shoved into its early game. Sated Devourer's a bit more complicated, since it was released at a time where its counter-strategies aren't being supported at all (counterjungling/invading would seriously lower Devourer's favor in the meta by making it less safe), and it's mainly talked about because a few champions go completely bonkers once they reach it, but it does look a bit too strong even beyond that, so it might also need a nerf.

Imo, Warrior needs to remain a favored pick for strong early gankers, but should also have some power moved farther into the game, so that it always remains the best enchantment for AD champions who want to a) deal damage and b) either set up kills or clean up really well (basically, AD assassins and offensively-focused fighters). To me, the best mirror for that would be item 3071 , and I think one possible equivalent could be something along these lines:

Enchantment - Keening Recipe: item 1036 + + 680g (we seriously need an AD + CDR item more basic than item 3134 )

50 AD
10% CDR UNIQUE PASSIVE - SUNDER (Doesn't stack with Black Cleaver's passive): Dealing physical damage to an enemy Cleaves them, reducing their armor by 9 (+ 2 per level) for 2 seconds, with the strength and duration doubled against monsters (including epic monsters). This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds against the same target.

So whereas TBC would be better-suited for tank-busting fighters, this one would be more for assassins and burstier fighters (e.g. Khazix , LeeSin , JarvanIV , etc.) who'd care more about picking off specific targets really quickly. As with the current enchantment, it would favor squishy-popping over tank-busting, and while the effect would be still countered by stacking armor, the increase per level means it wouldn't fall off either.

GusiclesAug 17, 20152 votes

Actually, I really like that idea. It would make jungle diversity a lot better. And give love to the good 'ol item 3134 .

And yeah, I meant to write Luden's Echo on the post instead of Shiv. Oops, lol.

Teridax68Aug 17, 20151 votes

A item 3285 -like enchantment would definitely make a lot of sense, since the effect is based on movement and spell casts, and AP junglers are always going to roam and cast a lot of spells. I also think Luden's in its current state needs to change a little: it's really good for waveclear and poke, but is often picked by bursty AP champions, especially assassins, who just want to pile more raw burst onto their damage rotation. I think it would be better if Luden's didn't deal any bonus damage to the main target, but instead dealt a lot more damage to secondary targets to cement its role as a waveclearing item.

As for an AP jungle enchantment, I feel a reverse-Luden's might work, where instead of providing a ton of damage upfront, you'd "charge up" against a single target and deal bonus damage to them once you reach a certain amount of charges, which would especially reward landing combos against your opponents. Here's a quick brainstorm of the idea:

Enchantment - Leyblade: Recipe: item 1052 + item 3108 + 145g

50 AP
20% CDR UNIQUE PASSIVE - ECHO (Doesn't stack with Luden's Echo's passive): Hitting an enemy with a spell or basic attack charges them for 5 seconds. Each instance applies 20 charges, and moving adds up to 40 additional charges (doubled to 80 against monsters), consumed on the next hit (so applying 60 charges against minions and champions, and 100 charges against monsters). At 100 charges, they consume themselves to deal 15% (+ 2% per 100 AP) of the target's maximum health as magic damage, capped at 50 (+ 25 per level) against monsters.

The idea here would be to have an enchantment that, at its core, would really help AP junglers clear (hence the doubled charge generation against monsters and max health damage to deal with tough camps), and outside of the jungle would also allow them to lay down powerful extra damage while ganking, though that damage wouldn't be free burst even if it would be made significantly easier when entering combat. The max health damage would allow the damage to also be relatively target-agnostic: a jungler with this enchant wouldn't be able to insta-pop squishies with raw damage, one of the issues preventing Runeglaive from being too powerful, but would be able to deal better with tankier opponents as well as jungle camps and epic monsters. The enchantment would work with basic attacks as well as individual instances of spell damage, which would not only benefit the current roster of item 3057 -loving champions (e.g. Diana , Nidalee , Ekko , etc.), but would also help really spammy casters like Elise , Evelynn , potentially even Karthus , as well as cater to DoT-based champions like Fiddlesticks and Amumu (maybe ?), who'd be able to charge up on each instance of DoT-based damage. I didn't give this a mana restore, partially because the enchant would likely help well enough with clearing and ganking on its own, but also because I think that's an issue that should be solved at the level of item 1039 , which has a mana restoration effect that's inadequate on many AP champions, and not really later.

GusiclesAug 18, 20151 votes

True! That would be awesome for AP junglers, and make the viability pool huge. The only problem I think I would have is Ezreal abusing this as he did Runeglaive again, albeit this time it wouldn't be as powerful.

Definitely something I would root for, though.

Teridax68Aug 18, 20151 votes

That's true, Ezreal could definitely abuse the CDR and combo mechanic, particularly since he's naturally very spammy and mobile, though I also think it would be less severe than with Runeglaive, due to the enchantment offering far less mana sustain on its own, no AoE waveclear (unless you have natural AoE already, which Ezreal lacks without his ult) and relatively less damage against other squishy mid laners (plus it would be more difficult to set up). Ultimately, the big issue would always be some champions abusing these jungle enchantments, whether it's Ezreal in lane, Nidalee in the jungle or the like, and it would be important to make sure they strike the right balance between having a lot of power concentrated in jungling and enough power to transition well out of it.