Kindred is really not that good....

seriously, can we just call Kindred a "her", what does Wolf even do? :[

Just say "Lamb" instead of Kindred if you want to refer to her gender. Unless you're talking about Wolf's abilities, you should be fine.

It's confusing, I guess.

What does wolf do? How a out half your damage.. The combo is simple. E to slow with an immediate W to start the field. Q aa Q. By this point the second part of E will trigger where wolf does a hefty amount of damage usually resulting in a won trade or kill. You should get botrk for sure as the active helps securing kills which secures stacks. Blood thirster is a personal favorite to give wolf that nice damage and you the extra sustain (W = sustain already)

Dont forget your Q can jump walls so nice plays can be set up or escapes made.

Thing about Kindred is that they scale with marks instead of items. You build items more for their "utility" stats versus raw damage. Attack speed and armor pen is what they love most while their passive provides continuously scaling damage as long as you get marks.

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I think the biggest problem Kindred has... or... have is that (seriously, can we just call Kindred a "her", what does Wolf even do? :[) she doesnt scale well with any item. Like, blade is pretty good, but there isnt 1 item that just feels like its made for her. She is fairly strong early, you might get some kills, go back to base and realize that there is no item you need to get. Its not like Yasuo where you just get and triple your damage.

I completely agree. Everyone always rush botrk (including me) because on paper it makes sense, but it just feels lacking.

Honestly the lack of need for items is making me heavily lean towards tank items with them. I havent tried it yet, but I am thinking Warrior, then Sightstone (vision control + health, dont really care about items if I can get stacks and with good vision and a willing team, stacks become easier and easier) Frozen Mallet, maybe armor pen items, maybe BorK, maybe Ruunans if wanting damage, not all of this have I tried out yet, so I definately agree, just cant pin down what I want on them, and its definately not clear with the recommended list, but I FEEL like I could build some armor pen and then tank and that would honestly be all I need.

This isn't really a problem, IMO it would be a problem if they DID scale well with an item. Pretty much all of their damage comes from the stacks on their passive, so yes they're kinda weak at first, but once you get 6 stacks and , you start doing 15.5% max hp dmg, which would be completely insane if they also had high base damage or any large benefit from items like yas. Ignoring armor ( anyone?) you can kill any enemy in under 10 hits already.

Huh.. I kinda disagree. I think she scales well with item, she doesn't scale well with spell level-ups. I read the spells and the level ups barely add anything to her kit, it's like all she needed are 3 spells at level 3 then you can decide to max any one. Im still testing her, but the numbers are minimal.

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Their Q needs on hit effects. It'll fix almost all of their problems.

I agree. The q doesnt really do much damage, it needs the on hit effects, and kindred will be in a good place.

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Kindred is actually pretty fine. They kind of work in a hyper carry aspect and rely on snowballing to get places. They're super awesome to play when you're constantly getting stacks of your passive, but when you aren't you feel like a liability because the enemy can just invade your jungle and do what they want.

Exactly. They're painfully vulnerable early game to champs with strong starts like Lee Sin, but if they're allowed to farm the marked camps, finish a couple items, or get successful ganks off on marked targets, they get rolling like crazy.

I like to think of the ult as them giving you a brief moment of rest before you die, like you can fight back and kick and scream but nothing is going to stop the inevitable and they even heal you so you feel a bit better before you hit the ground.

So it's a problem for a champion ult to counter Zed's? Uh... are you sure you're not in the wrong league?

Alright, I originally wasn't going to reply to this, but I read it again and it was too much bullshit for me to handle. Lamb's dash, while it does shoot projectiles, it terms of pure mobility, lucian's and graves' is superior. Also, yes it does damage, but kindred's auto attacks will do more damage than it late game, which is the whole point of an adc. What I think is sad is how much more damage it deals than kindred's auto attack's before that point however. If you don't get what I'm implying, its that kindred's auto attack power is weak as hell. Mounting dread is literally a meager 1 sec slow, so while it's strong, it doesn't last long. at all. Then there's kindred's passive, where, unless you're absolutely killing lane, which is highly unlikely because kindred adc is awful, you won't be getting stacks. as an adc, you won't really be able to walk into the enemy jungle to get stacks, unless it appears on bottom side scuttle. The problem with that is you'll have to spend a large amount of time taking the scuttle because kindred has no hard cc to reduce scuttle's massively high armor. In this time you'll be losing experience and more income from minions in lane.

Lamb's as mobile as kalista with wolf's frenzy active? yea maybe, but that's only when Lamb is inside the circle! going in a single direction lamb can get off just two q's before leaving the circle and becoming vulnerable. Then there's that 500 range that leaves kindred very vulnerable in teamfights all game, hell having 500 range is a major disadvantage in all parts of the game. I'm still trying my damnedest to figure out why you think 76 attack damage at lvl 1 is impressive. Hell, im still trying to figure out how you got 76! Unless you're running 3 ad quints... on an adc which would actually be the dumbest thing ever. A standard adc rune page will have 2-3 attack speed quints, not ad. And of all adc's kindred has the lowest base ad at lvl 1, tied with varus, kog'maw, and twitch, at 49. But even those three gain more ad per lvl than kindred! so not only does Kindred have the lowest base ad, they also have the lowest ad per lvl. What im getting at here is that while with full ad marks and quints, masteries, and a doran's blade kindred can reach 76 ad. Yea well with the same setup every single adc has either more or as much as that, but in the latter case will surpass kindred starting at level 2

Can't take more word for it and need more convicing? http://champion.gg/champion/Kindred/ADC

If you're playing kindred adc, I advise you to stop that, and play her in the jungle. Jungle Kindred is actually good ^.^

The fact that you would even state that vayne has a bad matchup agaisnt 95% of all adc's tells me you're not that knowledgeable in this area. Nothing wrong with that, and as you gain experience you'll gain greater knowledge. I've reached plat IV playing adc and jungle, and i've been playing kindred since release (So I probably know a bit more than someone, in say, silver V) So let me fill you in on some things:

Vayne does NOT have a bad matchup 95% of the time. I've played against and as vayne extensively, and I can tell you that while she struggles agaisnt adc's with much higher range, i.e, jinx, caitlyn, and ashe, or someone who can out trade her auto for auto like draven and trist(with her e), anyone besides those 5 vayne has a pretty solid matchup.

And I'm not denying kindred ADC has strengths in forms of her w sustain, coupled with her q and e trade potential, its just that her glaring weaknesses in the adc position outshine her strengths, ESPECIALLY after the laning phase.

As far as Wolf's frenzy is concerned, yes the total area is large, but in lane the only thing that's important is the radius, which is sadly not quite as large. Still large, but not that large. In lane, the enemy carry could just walk out before you can accomplish anything. Why you ask? because the way laning works when compared to jungling, for jungle Kindred, you can come from either behind or an angle perpendicular to the enemy which allows them close the gap with help from q to get much closer to the target before activating wolf's frenzy to receive the max use. in lane, with both carries facing each other, the enemy would have to be an idiot to let Lamb get that close for wolf's frenzy radius to pass so much to receive much use. That might happen in lower elo levels of play, but NEVER in higher levels when people aren't going to be complacent to something so forecasted. Well now you're saying you can use q to that much closer to the enemy in lane before activating w right? except that doesnt really solve anything if your enemy is any good. The hop is sadly NOT that large, its useful for increasing/decreasing gaps and going over walls, but if you're going to try that than that would mean you were already <500 units away (Kindred's auto range) and then q'ing to get closer. However you run into the same problem, if the enemy is any good they should have kept you at max auto range the entire time, meaning walking out of wolf's frenzy won't be that hard.

And when did I say range is the only consideration? In fact I stated multiple reason why Kindred adc is not good, besides the range. Her range is a setback in lane, but becomes an ever greater liability later the game if you planning on playing her adc. In caitlyn's case as you mentioned, her range means that she becomes a good lane bully, but with only one offensive basic ability that is also slow and clunky, her mid game is pitiful and she won't be useful again until she scales up with items, which is why range is important, but NOT the end all factor when it comes to these things. As I've mentioned before Kindred doesn't work as an adc for many other reasons besides her lackluster range. Her terrible scaling without passive stacks, 500 range means youre never truly safe in teamfights even with wolf's frenzy up, etc.

Jungle Kindred or ADC Kindred? Jungle Kindred gains stacks far easier than adc Kindred. Boom. done.

"Even if you were entirely right about Kindred being outclassed by other ADCs, the disparity between her being outclassed by other ADCs as an ADC is far smaller than her being outclassed by other junglers as a jungler." I'll be honest here: I very nearly gagged when I heard that. Do you have anything to back up that statement? of course you don't, because it's really just the opposite. Kindred adc is currently sitting at the lowest win rate and overall performance of adc's, while the Jungle variant is already in the 10th place. I believe I linked this before, but I guess I'll do it again: http://champion.gg/champion/Kindred/ADC and in case you were too lazy http://champion.gg/champion/Kindred/Jungle.

But wait! the only reason Kindred was placed in the 10th spot was because of their incredibly high pick rate and ban rate that is synonymous with a new champion release. I mean, just look at the rest of those statistics! Deaths, assists, and win rate are all pitiful. Meaning that once that ban rate and play rate get scaled back when they're no longer a "brand new" champion release We'll see Kindred have a massive fall off in role position.

Which brings us back all the way to the very beginning of this post. Kindred is NOT a strong pick (albeit, perhaps, a semi-decent one), but they're incredibly fun to play.