Why are there multiple magic resist + AD items, and only like 1 armor + AP item?

Witchy Wench··53 votes·16,005 views

.......anyone care to explain?

109 Comments

HateDaddy39 votes

A few reasons:

Many AP items have HP attached to them.

Adding more AP/Armor items also makes it possible for tanks to abuse these items since many of them now rely on inherent %damage reduction or inherent defensive tools in general.

While there are multiple AD items with MR, it’s incredibly inefficient to build more than one. An ADC doing this would, in most cases, be sacrificing a great deal of damage.

Mages also can build void staff, which ignores almost half of the enemies MR with 40% pen. Meanwhile, LDR and MR do 35% and 25% respectively. This is also because the nature of pen and damage type: 40% pen on burst champions is far more lethal than 35% pen on DPS champions (but the AD% pen scales much better since DPS works vs several targets and burst typically only works against one - this is the very nature of AP vs AD).

AP also scales shields and heals, whereas AD doesn’t necessarily. That said, there are AD champions that have AD scaling shields and AD does scale lifesteal, but this is only in individual cases where it benefits the champion building it. Supports and many Utility mages can scale these shields/heals on themselves or allies. This would make additional AP/armor items contribute more to mage tankiness.

Mages have longer range than ADCs and the shorter ranged mages have inherent tools to offset their range, or the short range is an intended weakness. Because of this, the idea is that diving mages is supposed to be how you deal with them because of their long range. Giving them additional durability options when they already have tons of HP/AP items while also having banshees + zhonyas makes that a scary proposition for further empowering mages teamfight.

These are the reasons why. Are they justified? I don’t know, I lean towards yes because of the fact that tank MR stats suck as well and clearly riot intended these aforementioned things to be a weakness for mages. I think we all realize what the problem is this: mages don’t have ways to itemize against AD in lane, which is a fair complaint. While I think mages struggling vs AD in lane is also probably an ideal balance, the reality is the scale is tipped way too far in favor of ADs. I think what could help a great deal is buffing seekers in such a way that really helps deal with AD - perhaps giving it full armor upfront or giving more AP (let’s say it builds from two cloths and blasting wand) so it doesn’t feel like it cripples damage so badly. I actually do think adding an additional AP/Armor item isn’t a good idea for what it’s worth. I’d also say hexdrinker should become an active rather than be a passive so that it actually requires skill to use rather than just prevent you from burst execution. Obviously further changes would need to be made to it but that’s another discussion.

Marshbouy6 votes

Good reply to this post.

big +1 from me.

HP Crookshanks20 votes

AD bias. ADs always had superior items.

crispy664 votes

could it possibly be because ap items give more ap per gold compared to ad ?

chipndip118 votes

Because:

  1. The active on Zhonya's is pretty much universally applicable.

  2. Between the 45 armor from Zhonya, 60 MR from Banshee's, and the HP you can get from Morello, Liandry's, RoA, and/or Rylai's, a mage can get pretty beefy with multiple defensive actives/passives.

  3. Most fighters aren't gonna build QSS. Most carries aren't gonna build Maw. Almost no one is going to build both.

SnugglePuggle942 votes

Yeah but then AD's just tank through all that shit anyway. It's not enough with all the damage they added in this season. Maybe last season and before, it was enough, but not now.

chipndip14 votes

And what says anything different about people that build QSS or Maw? Hell, one of the defensive AD items is literally "Yeah you die outright, but you come back to life for a bit"...like it doesn't even save you from anything, save death itself (with no insurance that you won't just die again).

You have PLENTY of options for both offense and defense. It's on you to actually use them. I can tell you rn that most people don't even bother with Banshee's, even though it's one of the best mid lane items in the game.

SnugglePuggle942 votes

Zhonya's is the same way. Might just delay your death 2 seconds most of the time.

For AD, yes they have plenty of options. AP have way less. And I still try to build defensive. Does barely shit in this meta compared to previous seasons where defense actually worked well.

Thanks to Riot removing a ton of our defensive runes and masteries, and only compensation champions with just ONE option, when they usually opted into at least two or three before, including increasing damage, is why it's so easy to be blown up in 0.2 seconds.

Last season > this season.

Slythrin Umbreon17 votes

Because building item 3156 item 3139 together will almost never happen, but multiple armor AP items would be bought almost every single game in lower elos, since I'm almost always playing against 2-4 assassins.

I mean, there was a point where mages would literally build frozen heart.

XxxLumberJackxxX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slythrin Umbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKwdjyrM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-21T18:31:01.397+0000)

Because building item 3156 item 3139 together will almost never happen, but multiple armor AP items would be bought almost every single game in lower elos, since I'm almost always playing against 2-4 assassins.

I mean, there was a point where mages would literally build frozen heart.

I still do situationally! Tank viegar the dream

Warlord Rhinark17 votes

item 3170 one day...

saltran3 votes

Never, as it should be.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

Never, as it should be.

Saltran go away you big stinky >:/

Lauchmelder16 votes

Because Riot gave a number of AP items more HP.

It's bullshit but thats how it is.

PopcornBunni34 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKwdjyrM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-21T18:17:18.851+0000)

Because Riot gave a number of AP items more HP.

It's bullshit but thats how it is.

[sg-lux-2]

item 3022 700 health item 3748 450 health item 3053 450 health + minimum 338 health shield item 3078 250 health item 3814 250 health item 3071 400 health

TheSingularity4 votes

In addition to their armor items item 3026 item 3025

Lauchmelder36 votes

{quoted}

[sg-lux-2]

item 3022 700 health item 3748 450 health item 3053 450 health + minimum 338 health shield item 3078 250 health item 3814 250 health item 3071 400 health

Oh, I didn't know that we're comparing mages like Lux and Syndra to the likes of Darius and Irelia instead of comparing them to their counterpart, the Attack Damage Carry, typically champions like Ashe and Vayne

TehNACHO20 votes

Shh, as long as the discussion is vague then we can all keep arguing circles around each other without ever reaching a conclusion.

kargish12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKwdjyrM,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2018-10-21T19:32:34.875+0000)

Oh, I didn't know that we're comparing mages like Lux and Syndra to the likes of Darius and Irelia instead of comparing them to their counterpart, the Attack Damage Carry, typically champions like Ashe and Vayne

Because only mages use AP items right?

Akali Amumu Chogath Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz Galio Janna Kassadin Katarina Kayle Leblanc Lulu Mordekaiser Nami Nidalee Nunu Rumble Sejuani Singed Sona Soraka Teemo

Poop Johnson11 votes

{quoted}

Because only mages use AP items right?

Akali Amumu Chogath Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz Galio Janna Kassadin Katarina Kayle Leblanc Lulu Mordekaiser Nami Nidalee Nunu Rumble Sejuani Singed Sona Soraka Teemo

It's not like Amumu, Cho'Gath, Galio, Sej, Singed and Nunu can get tank items right? Or Mord can easily buy AD items and tank items as well? Or Akali, Diana, Ekko, Fizz, Eve, Kassadin, Kat, Leblanc, and Nid are assassins and rely in burst instead of damage over time so defense items are much less effective on them and moreover unhealthy if they can rely on them (think Tank Ekko/Fizz)? You also listed a bunch of supports which have their own special items they can get, some which give them armor and magic resist. As for Kayle, has one of the bests ults in the game along with some of the best DPS in the game and as for Teemo which fits with Kayle as being AP DPS; lets be honest if Teemo could get defensive items and still do damage he'd be back to being the worst thing you could fight top lane.

The only champion that I'd say have bad itemization is Rumble and Elise but they're a mess everywhere as well.

TruelyTrueTrueth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKwdjyrM,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2018-10-21T19:32:34.875+0000)

Oh, I didn't know that we're comparing mages like Lux and Syndra to the likes of Darius and Irelia instead of comparing them to their counterpart, the Attack Damage Carry, typically champions like Ashe and Vayne

No I think they are just comparing AP and AD items

Lauchmelder2 votes

{quoted}

No I think they are just comparing AP and AD items

Which is a stupid way of looking at things. There are a good number of AD items that give HP because most toplaners (tank, bruiser, w/e) scale with AD instead of AP. If we're comparing AP items (mainly built by mages and AP assassins) we have to look at the items their counterparts have, and the counterpart of an APC is the ADC.

Bjørnetjenesten4 votes
  • Lucian , MissFortune Graves builds item 3071 for ranged burst adc. Syndra/Lux are also ranged burst champions.

  • AD Assassins (Same role as Syndra) buys item 3814 and item 3071, even item 3053 since it scales with bonus ad now.

  • ADC Like KogMaw Varus can efficiently buy item 3022 for kiting and survival. Ezreal and Corki buys item 3078.

So yeah your argument is completely invalid here.

Lauchmelder2 votes

{quoted}

Lucian, MissFortune Graves builds item 3071 he is a burst adc, Syndra and Lux are burst too. AD Assassins (Same role as Syndra) buys item 3814 and item 3071, even item 3053 since it scales with bonus ad now. ADC Like KogMaw Varus can easily buy item 3022 for kiting and survival. Ezreal buys item 3078.

So yeah your argument is completely invalid here.

  • Lucian buys BC because the passive has insane synergy with his kit. It's a niche item for ADCs in general.

  • AD assassins buy EoN because it somewhat is the AD counterpart to Banshee's. If an AD assassin buys BC he's not going to be assassinating people but is going for prolonged fights at which point he no longer is the proper counterpart to a burst mage but instead the counterpart to a battle mage. Your statement about Steraks is wrong, it still scales with base AD (either that or the tooltip is wrong)

  • The AP equivalent to Frozen Mallet is Rylais. That's a bad point you're making.

  • Ezreal buys everything. He's not a valid reference here.

Would you like to try again?

Bjørnetjenesten4 votes

Your point is still completely invalid

  • Why did you try to make it sound like, only Irelia and Darius can use these items, when that is obviously false. Clearly these items are being used by other classes like Marksmen and Assassins.

Lucian buys this item, for the same reason as Graves, MF or even Kindred: 1 . Lots of dmg and shred 2. Since you are low range you clearly need some HP/Tankyness + mobility/kiting 3. CDR is never a bad thing for AD casters.

Your whole point about AD assassins, is completely irrelevant as well, since they are the Analog of AP Assassins like Akali Ahri Evelynn Fizz, who have far fewer defensive options, even though they fulfill a similar role.

The AP equivalent to Frozen Mallet is Rylais. That's a bad point you're making.

Why is this a bad point? You tried to make it sound like only bruisers use this item, but clearly 2-3 marksmen have high synergy with this item that gives 700 HP = 2nd highest HP-item in the game.

Also item 3078 is a core item on Ezreal and Corki, even Vayne can buy it now and use it efficiently.

Whatever you try to say now, doesnt change the fact that you tried to misrepresent OP's comment, by saying these HP/AD items belong to a certain bruiser/juggernaut class, which is clearly false.

Lauchmelder2 votes

{quoted}

  • Why did you try to make it sound like, only Irelia and Darius can use these items, when that is obviously false.

We're getting nowhere here because you can't even understand what I actually wrote.

Concerning Triforce: It's a core on 2 of 21 marksmen (not including Azir, Jayce, Kennen, Teemo and Urgot). It's niche as fuck and just some straws you're trying to grasp just to make your point sound correct.

This is a waste of my time. If someone else wants to bring up actual arguments instead of thoughtless crying in this thread I'm up for a discussion. Not with you though, you had your chance wuthappen.

Ahri Inari1 votes

Yes, because Lux and Syndra buiild item 3027 item 3151 item 3116???. Bruiser counter part are battle mage.

Except few adc/mage, both mostly won't build ap/ad + HP.

Lauchmelder1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Inari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKwdjyrM,comment-id=0002000000010005,timestamp=2018-10-22T17:06:01.297+0000)

Yes, because Lux and Syndra buiild item 3027 item 3151 item 3116???. Bruiser counter part are battle mage.

Except few adc/mage, both mostly won't build ap/ad + HP.

Legit question: Do I even have to respond to idiotic comments that nitpick the exact champions I listed as examples for a mage?

I could have said Brand, Cassiopeia, Viktor, Ziggs or whoever the fuck you want me to call, that's not the point! I was giving examples and you are the third person today who can't properly read it as entries in a category but instead question the exact champions I chose to call out off the top of my head just because they disagree on those exact champions. I don't give a fuck if you disagree with the champions I chose to name, if that's what's preventing you from seeing the point I'm trying to make here then you are missing the entire point anyway.

Ahri Inari2 votes

Legit question: Do I even have to respond to idiotic comments that nitpick the exact part of my comment that use the same champion selection as your ignoring it was an example to lead to "Bruiser counter part are battle mage. Except few adc/mage, both mostly won't build ap/ad + HP."

I could have said Brand, Cassiopeia, Viktor, Ziggs or whoever the fuck you want me to call, that's not the point! I was giving examples and you are mad because you stereotype me as 2 other people today who can't properly read it as entries in a category but instead question the exact part of the comment he want to complain. I don't give a fuck if you disagree with your own champion selection if that's what's preventing you from seeing the point I'm trying to make here then you are missing the entire point anyway.

ModUlanopo1 votes

You both need to chill out in this conversation.

ModUlanopo1 votes

You both need to chill out in this conversation.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

If you add AD/MR + AD/HP it is the same number as AP/Armor + AP/HP

True Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKwdjyrM,comment-id=000200000003,timestamp=2018-10-22T22:05:33.615+0000)

If you add AD/MR + AD/HP it is the same number as AP/Armor + AP/HP

If melee.

Two of those AD items are melee-only.

TehNACHO13 votes

...2. There are two Magic Resist+AD items on Summoner's Rift. And nobody builds them together.

This is just a dishonest post.

Marshbouy3 votes

Maybe OP forgot that item 3814 was changed to no longer build out of item 1033

BLIGHTBRINGER8 votes

###Asking the real questions

But in all honesty, no idea. I guess in Riot's point of view Zhonya somehow overcomes in power against both Mercurial Scimitar and Maw of Malmortius.

crispy665 votes

why is there one single item that gives AD and armor ? and it's a garbage item too

Śhunpo1 votes

GA is garbage? That's news to me.

PhantomSpirit1013 votes

To people wanting to defend AD items, anything is clearly garbage.

Śhunpo2 votes

GA is honestly broken imo. Ever since they gave it AD instead of MR it's been a staple pickup on AD junglers who have snowballed, bruisers, ADCs and AD assassins, and honest to god is it a nightmare to face...

3TWarrior2 votes

why is there an AD item that reduces damage by 30% then applies it as a 3 second 10% per second damage over time to the character taking damage

why was guardian angel changed to suit AD characters in the first place?

Hayaishi24 votes

Because there are more archetypes of AD champion than there is of AP. AD champions include everything from marksmen to fighters who also have archetypes of their own.

While most AP champions are usually mages, a few ap assassins and a handful AP bruisers which i guess we call battle mages now.

AD items need to fill more niches and roles than AP items do.

GG Thanks For LP4 votes

Because mages werent made to be bruisers that deal insane ap damage with tankyness? Why dont AD champions get a item 3089 that increases our AD by a huge amount? Are you seriously suggesting a 700 AP mage with 300 Armor would be balanced? Not only that, but the mage also gets huge health from Morello, Rylais and Liandrys. So youre technically speaking, if you want armor + ap on your precious mages, youd need to give up tons of your AP. No more 100 AP on items, no more Rab, youre now going to have about 300 ap full build instead of 800-1000.

Witchy Wench2 votes

[{quoted}](name=GG Thanks For LP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKwdjyrM,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-10-22T06:25:11.138+0000)

Because mages werent made to be bruisers that deal insane ap damage with tankyness? Why dont AD champions get a item 3089 that increases our AD by a huge amount? Are you seriously suggesting a 700 AP mage with 300 Armor would be balanced? Not only that, but the mage also gets huge health from Morello, Rylais and Liandrys. So youre technically speaking, if you want armor + ap on your precious mages, youd need to give up tons of your AP. No more 100 AP on items, no more Rab, youre now going to have about 300 ap full build instead of 800-1000.

Oh yeah? So bruisers should get to do as much damage as a mage, but have more armor and health? What the hell would be the point of a mage then?

LeBlanc Rose3 votes

And mages should be as tanky as bruisers?

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Safety, range, cc and better scaling?

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

Oh yeah? So bruisers should get to do as much damage as a mage, but have more armor and health? What the hell would be the point of a mage then?

When a bruiser is 100-0ing an ADC from 800 range while aoe CCing an entire team in one combo, we can talk.

Sire Hippington2 votes

multiple is a bit exaggerated for 2, and ther also is only 1 ad+armor item.

I really wouldn't mind more ap/armor options, especially some that actually focuses on armor+ap rather than an incredible potent active. However, saying ad's have multiple(2) mr items is very poor reasoning for it...

Sp33d Zer02 votes

item 3157 Ability power + Armor item 3156 item 3139 Attack power + MR

item 3022 item 3053 item 3071 item 3078 item 3748 and for shits and giggles we'll say item 3812 for attack power + HP item 3027 item 3116 item 2065 item 3152 item 3030 item 3151 item 3003 with Archangel's being the honary mention like Death's Dance it.

AD gets 1 more MR + AD option, AP gets 1 more AP + Health option.

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