Yikes. What happened to Lulu? She feels awful to play now.

Witchy Wench·Oct 22, 2018·16 votes·8,104 views

Haven't played her in a long time -- just played her again for 2 games and she was awful and felt nearly useless.

50 Comments

OniZetsu666Oct 22, 201816 votes

Nefs.Very.Hard.Nerfs. Just about every enchanter has been gutted. Lulu got hit pretty hard along with Karma and Janna.

Witchy WenchOct 22, 201813 votes

So why is it that enchanters and mage supports seem to keep getting nerfed and gutted but assassins bruisers and adcs are living the fine life?

Daddy AntsOct 22, 201810 votes

{quoted}

So why is it that enchanters and mage supports seem to keep getting nerfed and gutted but assassins bruisers and adcs are living the fine life?

"ADC's living the life"

Enchanters needed nerfing but Riot went a bit too far.

Lulu 's shield before the nerf was 6 second cooldown and a 6 second duration at 40% CDR.

That is absurd and should never be a thing.

The nerfs to their shields was deserved.

The additional nerfs to enchanter items was undeserved.

AmWhaleIRLOct 22, 20181 votes

Somebody gets it

MarothennanOct 22, 20181 votes

But how are ADCs living the life if their counters are getting buffed and enchanters are getting nerfed? Fuck logic I guess

HA I am Shaco HAOct 22, 20181 votes

Shaco btw lmao

ThefrostyvikingOct 22, 20181 votes

"ADCs are living the life"?

Homie if you hadnt realized but marksmen are greatly tied in with their supports.

Hit one and you hit the other one.

Weaker enchanters means that assassins and divers are having the time of their lives while majority of marksmen struggle to work, only the OP ones (MF-.....jhin?) or those with the potential to outplay almost anything (lucian,kaisa, vayne) are any good.

And yes, vayne has been rising back up.

The ones who are truly happy right now should be assassins, divers and some mages, along with a heap of diverse junglers.

BarcidOct 22, 201810 votes

Her nerfs were for being strong in a time when there wasn't so much damage.

Now there's so much fuckin' damage that I played against a Lulu/MF as Pyke/Lucian and literally killed her 3 times before she hit level 3. Twice while she was level 1. Basically if I landed a Q, she died - and she blew both her SS as did MF to save herself the first time.

So imagine the rest of lane for her - not that there was one, their botlane left lane because they stood no chance and we followed and instead just took the rest of their lanes.

This season was by far the most fucked ever.

hfvmxigmvkdbmcdqOct 22, 20188 votes

What happened to all enchanters, after they were in a fine spot cause they nerfed ardents they decided they would nerf even harder.

Wizard BlazeOct 22, 20188 votes

Rito does not like supports to prevent yourself or your mates for being one shot your asses or two. so they nerfed enchanters to oblivion and now game is either pyke or thresh of legends

JackMcSnipeyzOct 22, 20187 votes

Multiple nerfs to her and all her items will do that to a champion (as asked by the community of course).

RIP SideboobOct 22, 20186 votes

Enchanters got nerfed because riot wanted more fights, burst, engage, etc, and anything that stopped that had to catch the hammer.

Which is why Janna's shield got nerfed but damage buffed

Even tahm kench had his devour nerfed and I'm pretty sure they buffed the damage on it.

Nami heal got nerfed when her damage, if anything, was more of a problem

Sona might be next. Then we know that Soraka is gonna be the last one to go

Minimac2000Oct 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=RIP Sideboob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EoaxIpua,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-10-22T05:19:23.801+0000)

Enchanters got nerfed because riot wanted more fights, burst, engage, etc, and anything that stopped that had to catch the hammer.

Which is why Janna's shield got nerfed but damage buffed

Even tahm kench had his devour nerfed and I'm pretty sure they buffed the damage on it.

Nami heal got nerfed when her damage, if anything, was more of a problem

Sona might be next. Then we know that Soraka is gonna be the last one to go

They were planning on buffing the dmg on tk devour... but then they didn't so now he's just garbage

RIP SideboobOct 22, 20181 votes

Buffing his damage would break him and they knew it. I think they shoulda left him untouched considering he is still played in pro after the nerfs, they just hit him hard for uncoordinated play.

Critmaster GarenOct 22, 20186 votes

i hope shes benched until they rework polymorph. that ability is so fucking frustrating.

especially in a meta, where being cced for the duration is a death sentence.

PaffWasTakenOct 22, 20185 votes

She was, along with most other enchanters, considered to give waaaaaaayyy too much utility while making fights way to safe for her team and was tuned down a bit because of that. Indeed, she must feel quite weaker compaired to before, but she is far more healthier to play against that before though. She is still a popular and usefull pick, but she dosen't have this overbearing 54%+ winrate in all elos like she used to so, all in all, those changes were pretty good.

Fear the KaynOct 22, 20185 votes

Unfortunately a LOT of her power budget goes into her polymorph that her other skills can't really be good.

five oh tree Oct 22, 20185 votes

She has a 48.5% winrate with a 6% pickrate in platinum+ according to champion.gg. She's fine. I suggest looking up guides to optimize her masteries and build path if you're struggling with her.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 22, 20185 votes

You call that fine?! LOL.

That is NOT fine bro, in any context.

five oh tree Oct 22, 20185 votes

what?

There's what? 140 champs? and she's in 6% of your games. That's a pretty high pickrate. 48.5% winrate isn't even very low.

Her playerbase averages 7.71 games on her. Do you want a champ that everyone just picks up casually to have a good pickrate AND winrate above 50%? You realize that would indicate she's too strong, right?

I'm sorry you struggle at pressing R on your adc when someone jumps on them, but not everyone does, as people with 50+ games on her have a 53% winrate

98% of lulu games are on players who have less than 50 games on her. Her winrate is low because, to put it bluntly, most people that play her suck at her. They don't put in the time to learn the matchups and just want to faceroll with someone they see as an easy support champ.

Her stats indicate she is indeed fine in every context. Stop asking to buff a champion who is balanced.

https://champion.gg/champion/Lulu/Support?league=

SnugglePuggle94Oct 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 Fallacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EoaxIpua,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-10-22T14:09:45.421+0000)

what?

There's what? 140 champs? and she's in 6% of your games. That's a pretty high pickrate. 48.5% winrate isn't even very low.

Compared to other champions, her pickrate is actually on the low side. And less than 50% winrate does not equal balanced.

Her playerbase averages 7.71 games on her. Do you want a champ that everyone just picks up casually to have a good pickrate AND winrate above 50%? You realize that would indicate she's too strong, right?

Nami was fine around 52-53% range, and only got a stupid nerf thanks to Riot's bias, and wasn't ever really needed because she was fine the past few years with that number on her heal. The meta they changed things into made her shine, that's all. So with that said, champs can have a above 50 percent and still be fine without being too strong.

I'm sorry you struggle at pressing R on your adc when someone jumps on them, but not everyone does, as people with 50+ games on her have a 53% winrate

Wow. Wtf. That's rude and offensive. Attacking me without knowing my play and assuming that I don't know how to play well. Mind you, I'm a support main that knows how to fucking press R, so learn to be respectful of other players.

98% of lulu games are on players who have less than 50 games on her. Her winrate is low because, to put it bluntly, most people that play her suck at her. They don't put in the time to learn the matchups and just want to faceroll with someone they see as an easy support champ.

Proof? Cause if you don't, then that statement right there is bullcrap.

Her stats indicate she is indeed fine in every context. Stop asking to buff a champion who is balanced.

LOL. Nope. Especially that people have been commenting saying she's not fine, emphasizes that she's not.

https://champion.gg/champion/Lulu/Support?league=

five oh tree Oct 22, 20182 votes

[deleted]

SnugglePuggle94Oct 22, 20181 votes

Holy fuck. Elo shaming and being verbally abusive as well by calling me delusional and that I suck at her. Wow. Reported.

The mods don't tolerate that. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I know how to play well. Not all people in Silver are bad.

You just threw out your own argument by being verbally abusive and elo shaming someone, on top of not giving actual proof.

You aren't worth arguing with anyway.

Good fucking bye.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

five oh tree Oct 27, 20181 votes

So I gave myself five days of away time so I wouldn't "elo shame" more people out of irritation at their lack of arguments.

I will now leave on this message,

I gave "Actual proof" in statistics and analyses on them; you did not.

I did not "argue" with you, as that would require you to have an Argument which you had none- you had feelings.

It's the same as you telling me the earth is flat because you feel like it's flat under your feet and then denying it when I show you a picture of the earth taken from space.

Sure, it was wrong of me to call you bad or whatever it was I said exactly, but I don't regret it. I'll avoid responding to you in future threads as it is clearly a monumental waste of both our times. You won't take in new information and I'll end up getting flame-y. have some fun games on the rift.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 27, 20181 votes

I had and still have an argument, not just feelings which you don't know how to respect.

That earth is flat thing is also wrong in regards to my conversation with you.

And I'll avoid you as well because you don't know how to be respectful.

Good bye.

TTVcptthumbthumbDec 18, 20181 votes

So this is kinda necro but imma back up C9 as respectfully to you as I can. You said Nami was fine at 53%. That’s wrong. 50% is the desired number. The 55% is essentially permanent ban status. And 45%> is basicallly don’t touch this champion ever. No the riot is not bias as you seem to think. During the ardent peak, enchanters countered almost every champion in the game. They-countered ADCs with strong reliable cc. They countered bruisers with poke and kiting. They countered Ap carries with strong reliable cc and defensiveness. They countered assassins with hyper defense and strong reliable cc. During the peak, lulu worked in THREE lanes. I’m all for options, but the reasoning why was the problem. I’m going to be up front, during season 7 I was a draven main. That account got banned for toxicity and I’m trying to avoid being toxic in the future. But I remember in the peak of the ardent meta I HATED going vs a lulu. Her kit itself is solid and fine. Good for an enchanter. But the problem was she had base numbers to compensate for an issue that WASNT even there. Lulus kit is great, but her numbers were bloated as if to say her kit was literal trash and the numbers are meant to compensate. The result was a champion with a good kit, and numbers that had no reason for existing. Why could a lulu out trade a draven with one attack each? Most champions in the GAME can’t do that early, why is lulu an exception while still having a fantastic kit? That’s when I realized how strong she is. During those times, ardent censer champions were considered the STRONGEST in the game. Now lulu doesn’t feel as great, but you’re in luck! While lulu feels lack luster, the other ardent champions do not. This is due to the summon aery tree, giving ardent supports tremendous poke. So I’m once again in a season where draven can actually lose single hit trades with certain ardent supports despite his identity as a massive early game bully and pub stomper. Most of this is just my take on it. Also remember one thing. Winrate doesn’t actually reflect a champions potential. I’ll leave you with this example: new akali has been regularly considered broken by half of the player base because she’s hard to lane against, and the other half says they’re just bad because her winrate doesn’t reflect that. Meanwhile DOPA and Faker, widely considered the two best mid laners in the world, have akali considered as one of their top mid lane champions in the entire game.

MysticDreams12Oct 22, 20182 votes

That's not nice at all man. Everyone has an opinion and can argue balance, regardless of their rank.

Be a sportsmanlike person and learn to respect your fellow players, even if they are a lower rank then you.

RIP SideboobOct 22, 20182 votes

That's not fine if you consider the nature of her kit and what the meta is right now. Lulu is supposed to counter the current engage meta and she is failing at it miserably. Her playrate is meh and her winrate still being shit is a big enough sign.

EleshakaiOct 27, 20181 votes

Honest question, what would you consider fine?

SnugglePuggle94Oct 27, 20181 votes

Somewhere around a 50% winrate with at least 10% pickrate. I think that's decent.

Especially when you compare that to something like Thresh's winrate, who I heard recently he has like a 30% pickrate with a higher winrate than Lulu's as well, I just can't remember the percentage.

EleshakaiOct 27, 20181 votes

Alright, so let's logic this out.

At least 10% pickrate. That means, one in 10 games we see her.

Which is impossible, functionally. You cannot have 140 champions at a 10% or higher pickrate in a game where only 10 champions get picked.

If everything were perfectly balanced, EVERYONE would have sub-10% pickrate. So if we had perfect balance and equality, no champions would be fine in your eyes? (I didn't sleep well last night, but my mind is telling me that at 140 available champions and 10 per game, everyone SHOULD have a ~7% pickrate... but if someone wants to run the numbers to verify, I'd be happy to be proven wrong here)

As far as 'around 50% winrate', what is your rate for forgiveness around that to be considered healthy? Within 1%? 2%? 5%? 10%?

To your thresh point... Yes, Thresh is broken. He's been broken since release. He will ALWAYS be a viable, safe, playmaking support because his kit has no weaknesses. Thresh's pickrate is through the roof because he's just got too much he is capable of with no punishable weaknesses. But he's not the standard we should be holding everyone to, he's a bad example.

Edit: I just wanted to say that I don't necessarily feel that Lulu is in a good place right now. The enchanter class as a whole lacks the agency and itemization to be relevant in the current meta. But... I just wanted to have a discussion about expectations since that's the only reasonable discussion we can have here :)

SnugglePuggle94Oct 27, 20181 votes

Yea I'm not that experienced in pickrate/winrate statistics but it just what seemed healthy to me. And I don't think we can ever have perfect balance though because something will always be extremely strong and others just weak.

Rate of forgiveness, ehhh not sure. 5-10 would be healthy I would say.

And yes I agree Lulu is not in a good place. I played her the other day and struggled badly, even maxing E first which I usually don't do. Previous seasons it was Q max for me.

EleshakaiOct 27, 20181 votes

Just statistically speaking, I feel her pickrate's a tiny bit low(as I generally see 7-8 as being healthy for a non-standard pick), but her win-rate is in a relatively healthy place.(a couple percent off 50 is fine)

The pickrate is low not because of her individually, but because of what I said above - enchanters as a whole don't have a place in the current meta. Which SUCKS because I love Soraka, Nami, Janna, etc. Most of the champs I love most fall into a role that largely has no place right now. Even Nami, the strongest among the class right now, struggles to make her presence felt most of the time in the game(which is why that nerf was so baffling to me).

I feel like if the game slows down and damage decreases a bit overall, enchanters will likely find themselves in a healthier place. And I sincerely hope some of the changes coming next season help with this... but it's not looking like it.

I've gone back to Zyra/Leona as my mains and I'm trying to learn Rakan... but I miss my enchanters.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 27, 20181 votes

I agree with that. Enchanters have a hard time right now and they are my favorite supports to play.

That Nami nerf was disgusting and not needed. Again a stupid Riot balancing decision.

From what I've seen, doesn't look like any help coming for enchanters. Sigh.

And Rakan isn't doing to well in this meta either. I try to play him too and don't fair well.

chipndip1Oct 22, 20184 votes

Put it like this: We're at a point in time where we realize that the enchanter play style relies too much on passively heal/shield spamming.

We're not in a point in time where anyone cares to take a crack at fixing this.

MarothennanOct 22, 20184 votes

good, she can rot in hell, the game is barely playable when she is viable/popular

RIP SideboobOct 22, 20181 votes

Game is barely playable now and shes not in it.

MarothennanOct 23, 20181 votes

that doesn't mean it's any better when she is in it

RIP SideboobOct 24, 20181 votes

I personally think it is because if she's there, games tend to be slower. In other words, there's more of a game to play

TekkenPlayerOct 22, 20183 votes

Play damage Lulu because riot killed support egirl style, it's time to rise above support and bring her into the solo lane again

Fízz v2Oct 22, 20183 votes

Haven't played her in a long time

well that might be why

Support PositionOct 22, 20182 votes

She needs about 100 hp and double her base stats. She dies to anything in 1 second. Been that way since season 6, awful stats :/ need hardcore buffs. Just like poor mord.

Warlord RhinarkOct 22, 20182 votes

The specific nerf to her was deserved.

The nerfs to Heal & Shield items was undeserved.

HA I am Shaco HAOct 22, 20182 votes

. Be a meta slave and play what's meta, it's what riot wants.

Krys StarOct 22, 20182 votes

Enchanters were hit with strong nerfs so that they couldn't be included in Worlds. Notice how not a single Enchanter is being picked up or banned this time? :) All according to Riot's plan, favoring AD and tanky champions as per usual.

Ahri Body PillowOct 22, 20181 votes

Bitch got fuckin NERFED

Leto GTOct 22, 20181 votes

This early meta is not crazy good for enchanters. She still does very well by midgame.

zolikingOct 22, 20181 votes

I just played her recently for a couple of games and had no issues.

Baby GhoulOct 24, 20181 votes

Most of the enchanters have it hard right now, except Nami.

I wouldn't be surprised if changes came after Worlds.

DontTouchMyBallOct 27, 20181 votes

A few reasons:

Rito wants to appeal to all kinds of players...
and amage is in general fun, getting kills is fun so you feel good about yourself, look at you go!
Avoiding damage and denying damage is unfun.
Also playing passively & defensively is boring to watch and they want big LuLCS plays, no stale gameplay and high risks.

On the contrary I dislike how the game has been heading and every single champion seems to be required to one shot one another in order to exist in the game, I cannot justify my preferred playstyle.

Luckily I play all kind of supports and not just the enchanters, so I'll just spam and have fun with the likes of Thresh and Leona .

They even nerfed Nami because after the shield nerfs we still must not have ONE single decent or viable enchanter! Oh and instead of restoring some power to enchanters they went after Alistar !