Can we do something about panth

Captainn Ginyu·Nov 30, 2017·60 votes·2,345 views

Dude is just so fucking unfun to fight top

71 Comments

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 30, 201728 votes

Another QQ thread

'QQ'

Pun intended.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 30, 20176 votes

QQ? More like QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ...

Tails9016Dec 1, 20171 votes

You'be dead after about half of those.

MortekaiserNov 30, 201714 votes

that makes too much sense

Captainn GinyuNov 30, 20174 votes

{quoted}

that makes too much sense

its about all you need really to sum a whole 3 paragraph post its "he is just unfun to fight"

Ok sure but whyNov 30, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captainn Ginyu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l9MY52p5,comment-id=,timestamp=1018-11-30T05:59:52.138+0000)

Dude is just so fucking unfun to fight top

his q keeps you from farming, his w keeps you from engaging, his e helps himself do both, and his ult keeps your team from feeling safe about leaving turret for more than a second

fair and balanced

BârdNov 30, 20172 votes

A single rotation costs 145-165 mana (+100 if you initiate with R)

Keeping up the poke costs 45 mana every four seconds.

A level 4 Panth only has 387 mana to work with.

A level 9 Panth only has 526 mana to work with.

It doesn't help matters any that Pantheon doesn't have sustain.

Pantheon plays attrition until he can go in for a kill, but he doesn't have the reserves to keep that up. Early durability and sustain works wonders as long as you don't take any stupid fights.

VelgamNov 30, 201711 votes

cough item 2033

InfernapeNov 30, 201711 votes

Cough manaflow band cough

Tails9016Dec 1, 20171 votes

Cough Presence of mind

BârdNov 30, 20171 votes

And what is stopping you from getting that yourself?

General Esdeath Dec 1, 20174 votes

Riven Boy oh boy I can't wait to get all that mana from corrupting potion!

Renekton Riven, what are you doing? That's a waste of gold! We don't use mana!

Riven Trust me, I saw this on boards.

Garen item 3100 item 3089 item 3020 item 3151 item 1401 } item 3135 same!

DomovricDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Boy oh boy I can't wait to get all that mana from corrupting potion!

Riven, what are you doing? That's a waste of gold! We don't use mana!

Trust me, I saw this on boards.

} same!

Riven Oh boy, can't wait to buy a long sword and 3 pots because I don't have any resource limitations like most other champions. Oh boy can't wait to freely engage on people every 5-10 seconds without real punishment. Oh boy can't wait to buy full damage and still get both tankiness and mobility.

Bitch about pantheon and corrupting pot all you want, but its aery and a lack of brusier keystones that's the problem, not the champion.

General Esdeath Dec 1, 20173 votes

Riven God I wish my CD's weren't so high with telegraphed actions or my HP regen wasn't the 9th lowest in the game.

"Pantheon isn't the problem, new runes are"

He's been a problem for almost 2 years straight. Where have you been. His winrate is almost always above 50% and that's way too high for a "falls of late game" champ. His kit makes him useless if he isn't ahead. Champ needs a rework.

HibekiDec 1, 20171 votes

Ill stop you right there, Riven's CD's are nowhere near high enough.

2 second cooldown shield max rank 40% cdr.

General Esdeath Dec 1, 20171 votes

You mean, the thing that limits a champion early is lower once they itemize right? No way! Better nerf Viktor, he doesn't go oom late game once he gets 2,447 mana! Better nerf marksmen, they get damage and attack speed later on.

Also, her E has a 3 second CD max level with 45% CDR

https://i.imgur.com/aHCIQFM.png

HibekiDec 2, 20171 votes

Its 1.7 seconds with the % cdr. The skill goes on cooldown before you lose the shield.

General Esdeath Dec 2, 20171 votes

But she still has no mobility for over 3 seconds. The shield is nice, but the dash is what lets her engage, disengage, and set up otherwise impossible wall hops.

HibekiDec 2, 20171 votes

The shield is 100% the best part, the dash is just a bonus.

And no, she has Q for mobility.

General Esdeath Dec 2, 20171 votes

For engage and gap closing? And there's a LOT of things Riven can't hop over without using her E.

Troll for TrumpDec 1, 20171 votes

Riven's abilities aren't that telegraphed.

It's more like she, and many others are just ouranged by Q and Aery. That's usually what it boils down to with the unfun matchups. You can't do anything because you can't reach them. Yes, if you were locked in a cage with any of them, your champ wouldn't have that many issues.

But in Panth's case, you just can't engage on him as he spams Q from afar, telegraphed ability or no.

General Esdeath Dec 1, 20171 votes

You can see her use 2 Q's before her knock up. She has to dash into you (or walk if she's brave) to W you.

I was talking about Riven in general, Panth is a whole different problem.

Troll for TrumpDec 1, 20171 votes

A lot of melees can't get out before the third Q. Usually, when the riven is going in for the trade, she chains it with other ccs. Melees have a much harder time reacting to her skills, but tend to be able to take the dmg. Ranged champs can avoid the skills much more easily, but they, at almost all stages of the game, will get blown up by the full Riven combo.

In melee matchups, the Riven gets to feel like she can actually do something.

There's a lot more complications.

Riven is not telegraphed at all though, at least compared to most top laners (which just wobble over to you)

General Esdeath Dec 2, 20171 votes

Panth has CC on his W and can just throw a Q and kite away with its short CD. Riven moving up to you? I wonder what she's going to do...

Troll for TrumpDec 2, 20171 votes

Not what I was saying but ok

It Hertz When IPNov 30, 20174 votes

Playing devil's advocate here, his ult's actually not impossible to avoid unless he drops it in a choke point to cut off your retreat. Also, depending on your team comp, if you time it right you can use the fact that his landing point is fixed and predictable to land a guaranteed skillshot on him.

The rest of his kit is BS, but his ult's manageable.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 30, 20172 votes

His ult is the only thing you can fight in his kit. And then it ends up being useless, because it's pathetically easy to avoid. You can walk end to end, with Ashe shooting you the entire time, and you'll still make it out before he lands.

Trias000Nov 30, 20172 votes

His ult might as well deal no damage, but it would still be far from useless. It makes his roams very powerful.

Ok sure but whyNov 30, 20171 votes

His ult is like Illaoi's and Kennen's ults

It's something so powerful it CAN disrupt an entire teamfight for a lengthy amount of time

Sure it can be easily avoided, but once you all start running away from the circle of pain and despair, the teamfight has already been won by them 90% of the time

CithriaCNov 30, 20175 votes

Aery on him is just disgusting.

Demon King MaouNov 30, 20175 votes

Hmm sounds like a certain other pair of champions.. Illaoi Rumble

XavanicNov 30, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon King Maou,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l9MY52p5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-11-30T06:54:01.470+0000)

Hmm sounds like a certain other pair of champions..

Illoai and rumble are actually 10x less oppresive then pantheon, dodge their shit and their pretty weak early on, pantheons main damage is UNDODGEABLE due to his targeted stun, and now that he can trade more often thanks to aery (aswell as proc it 2-3 times when he jumps on you, on top of being able to proc it every 4 seconds because of his spear) hes actually oppressive

FireDrizzleNov 30, 20173 votes

Rumble is really strong now and there is no dodging the flame, just being out of range.

Big Black CrocNov 30, 20171 votes

Wtf? I thought rumble was weak as shit because he has no rune replacement from deathfire touch.

FireDrizzleNov 30, 20171 votes

No rune replacement for dft? Didnt bother Malz did it?

I cant tell you why he is stronger now but he is picked vs Sion and Sion is my main. I have won that lane before runes reforged but now he automatically wins. And SIon is stronger with new runes. He is still dealing damage after item 3194 even.

Cloud273Nov 30, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captainn Ginyu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l9MY52p5,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-30T05:59:52.138+0000)

Dude is just so fucking unfun to fight top

You spelled Jayce wrong...

Red WreckageNov 30, 20172 votes

for all ranked purposes, he is my 100% ban every game. he may not have a high play rate, but I'm just just not fking taking a chance. i see him picked and I'm already tilted to my core, by how fking pathetic this balance team must be, to leave this champ with this garbage toxic kit for so fking long. never seen him below 50% win rate in like 2 years

DuskDaUmbreonNov 30, 20172 votes

I'd honestly rather fight Teemo as Darius than Pantheon as anyone that doesn't hard-counter him. I'd rather be fighting Yasuo. Fuck, I'd rather be fighting Vlad as Poppy.

It doesn't matter how useless or godly Pantheon is, he makes your life a living hell for the entirety of laning phase. You can't get close enough to CS without losing a shitton of health from a Q, you can't trade without losing at least half from a W>E (and that's assuming you even manage to trade after he does that), and you can't even afford to roam, because you're so far behind that you'd just give the laner a kill.

The guy is actually as bad as midlane mage mains claim Zed is.

LankPantsNov 30, 20172 votes

I've always said we should just up his Q's mana cost to something he can't actually afford in lane, IE 45>70 and just leave him until he's reworked (which should be a priority).

I don't even see why a champ with as little to him as Panth is allowed to be viable, let alone as strong as he is.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 30, 20172 votes

He fucks melee bruisers. Enough reason for riot to keep him viable.

BârdNov 30, 20171 votes

He doesn't have to be fun to fight, there just has to be a way to beat him.

There is, so he doesn't need a nerf.

ªTeemoNov 30, 20175 votes

And that is being his bitch till he falls off?

Big Black CrocNov 30, 20172 votes

"Falls off"

KimutoNov 30, 20171 votes

The spears hurts so damn much.. what's worst is that you can't dodge it

RyrynounetDec 1, 20172 votes

It remind me of a certain class who got dammaged from an unvoidable dammage output Ashe Twitch Tristana Caitlyn Ezreal Jinx etc etc

Z3SleeperNov 30, 20171 votes

I wouldn't mind a Pantheon rework. Feels like he has a ton of untapped potential in terms of kit reflecting his lore.

Though I guess even in his lore the only thing he can do is jump super high and land like a meteor. Other than that he just kinda auto attacked people in his lore.

YuGiHoDec 1, 20171 votes

dude should have been reworked years ago

Solidair3Dec 1, 20171 votes

Sounds like some balance work is going out soonish for top lane, hopefully for panth

LegacyDAPDec 1, 20171 votes

I don't know if anybody will see this, but the best way to nerf Panth imo is by nerfing his MS by 15 or 20. I don't know why he gets to have the highest base movespeed in the game along with Master Yi, when he really doesn't need it.

That movespeed is the reason it's so free for him to chase down people with Q's and not let them retaliate.

Scary DoorDec 1, 20171 votes

Pantheon has been the same champion for as long as I've played League.

He falls into the Tryndamere category. An ancient kit/design, one that is inherently unhealthy, but not so much so that it is game-breaking. Since both of them are relatively unpopular champions when compared with Lee Sin, Ezreal, Lucian, Yasuo, Zed, etc, they won't get updated anytime soon even though they probably should be.

Pantheon (just like Trynd and a few others) have counterpicks and some counterplay for sure, but this doesn't mean that they shouldn't be addressed.

My biggest problem with Pantheon is that he has unavoidable/reliable damage in his kit. It just sucks to be chunked for 8-10% of your health every few seconds with an ability that can't be dodged/blocked or otherwise avoided. Of course I know that if I want to beat a Pantheon I pretty much have to be playing Poppy or Fiora and just wait it out, but that just sucks quite honestly... I'd like to see Pantheon have to be a bit more interactive in lane.

To those that say "but he falls off late game". I don't know if you've noticed but there is no such thing as "late game" in League anymore. Not to mention, even when there was, he still obliterates a carry if he jumps on them in the "late game".