i dont care if your afraid of losing LCS viewer ship because shit is less flashy we have been asking for damage reduction ALL season an riot just buffs shit in response
at least with old runes i could have fun with em
MrFawknSunshine19 votesoh dear god i wish they would. go back to the old rune and mastery system
PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ
Bijeesny18 votesEven to this day, I don't understand what was the point of Runes Reforged. What are they offering that old runes couldn't?
CppL4 votesIts free.You dont need to waste BE.Thats the only reason i guess.
deadlychuck7 votesThat has nothing to do with the Runes Reforged though, that's entirely quality of life changes that could've been easily made to the old system.
DuskDaUmbreon3 votesWhat it's offering is more visible runes.
Old runes were literally just stats. Most of them just were static stats. Half of them were trap purchases. A lot of rune stats were either cheese (full AD Draven runes), extremely unreliable, or just outright sub-par compared to everything else.
Bijeesny8 votesWhat it's offering is more visible runes.
What?
Old runes were literally just stats. Most of them just were static stats. Half of them were trap purchases. A lot of rune stats were either cheese (full AD Draven runes), extremely unreliable, or just outright sub-par compared to everything else.
Runes shouldn't be anything more than just stats imo. Once they have more impact you create a situation where if you don't take specific stats on certain champs you're legit trolling (every assassin nowadays only takes Electrocute/Domination for example), which creates balance issues. And those 'trap purchases' would happen if you didn't know wtf ure doing, and you create some gibberish. But that was the beauty of learning.
thinking that some runes were unreliable is pretty subjective. Sure there were some runes which almost no1 used but hey, as long as you can make it work, it wasn't unreliable. Every rune setup could be good as long as you know how to play around them.
I never looked up those 'rune guides' and shit like that. If i wanted a rune page for specific champs/class I would do that on my own. I would think about what my champ has and what it lacks, and build accordingly. Even during Ardent meta where 'meta runes' was full gold gen setup on supports, i used my own runes which got me to gold (on another acc, I can show it to you if you want)
Nowadays every champ has 1 (2 at best) rune setup which are must-have. There is no experimenting, no diversity, no learning, only dumed-down system. If I play a champ I don't know, I'll take primary three which i see the most+ bone plating and 2nd wind. Literally don't need to think if I took good runes or not.
Don't even get me started on runes which nobody uses, just like in the old system.
deadlychuck1 votesChampions all benefit from stats roughly equally though. Where as mechanic gated power is going to have massive disparities in benefits, depending on how the champion is designed.
There are only 3 primary stats (HP, AD, AP) in the game, 2 non-unique resources (Mana, energy), and 9 secondary stats (lifesteal, armor pen, atk spd, crit, cdr, mag pen, armor, mr, ms) not separating flat and % pen or ms.
And just about every champion can benefit from numerous combinations of these to varying degrees. Based on the design of the champion or the build that you're going.
What it's offering is more visible runes.
Not it's offering more powerful runes.
cocacolalips6 votesI'm wasting my time posting this since it's like describing colors to a blind man, but they explained plenty times why they updated runes. "But muh reading, I hate reading" yes but you can't say they didn't explain it if you refuse to read the explanations.
some articles:
https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/01/dev-update-on-runes-reforged/
https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/runes-reforged-picking-your-playstyle
now me giving you a tldr because you won't read the articles anyway
Runes reforged accomplished 2 goals:
it made runes more accessible and intuitive to use, no IP to grind, no bad choice, everything is available from the get go for you to experiment at your leisure at no cost
it made runes more interesting and satisfying to use while in game, in the old system, most runes and masteries were permanent passive stats, +3 AD, +1% damage, +1% mana etc, the new runes for the most part are spells, they aren't not just there and you forgot about them, you have to actually use them in game, to trigger them following unique conditions, they have a cooldown leading to moments of high and low tension when they are up and down etc they have become an active part of the gameplay.
All this made the runes a lot more fun and compelling to use, they are no longer that mandatory paper you fill out once and forget about, but go around tweaking every game and actively think about while playing.
It's really no different from updating a champion, the old stuff was bad, poorly thought out and ugly, and the new stuff is better.
Cavesloth18 votesThe new stuff is better.... at breaking the game, snowballing out of control and losing Riot tons of players. Yep, definitely better.
cocacolalips2 votesNah, whether they update the game or not, people will leave anyway, that's how consumerism works, you use one thing then move on to the next more recent thing
if the update is successful however, they still have a chance to retain people's interest, both new and old players, it's like releasing a new product in a way, people get interested again.
updates can only do so much for so long tho, at some point, the technical debt is so high that the only way to stay competitive with more recent products is to rebuild the product from scratch using newer technology, at which point you might as well make a new product all together.
This applies to games, but also to cars, food, houses, clothes, everything really.
Cavesloth1 votesWell of course you will always have that happening, it happens in all games over time. But to say that's the only reason people are leaving right is completely asinine, the game feels like absolute crap. It feels less like a game of skill and more like a game of chance, I want to feel like I WORKED for my victory not like a I pulled a lever and got 3 cherries.
Winning isn't rewarding because there's almost no skill involved in doing so; its no longer "I outplayed them", its "they had no shot at beating me and I squished them like an ant, woohoo big deal", and losing feels like having someone shit down your throat for 10-20 minutes. Anyone who can't see this is either sitting on a mountain of denial or just another RIot apologist, and I have zero respect for either.
cocacolalips2 votesI think the game is a lot of fun and all the updates have been really good for the game as a whole so I don't get that rant.
My only disappointment is the revert of the Marksmen changes, but oh well, that will happen sooner or later anyway.
Cavesloth1 votesI'm guessing you haven't been playing long if you think the game is good right now. I was hardcore addicted to this game, earning every possible mastery chest each season, getting to gold, completing all the misions, etc, and this season I was finally able to break my addiction to league, because I realized once Runes Reforged came out, not only was the game zero fun, it felt more like torture than a game.
cocacolalips2 votesI have Victorious Janna amongst other skins, I have been around for a while LOL
I actually would have stopped playing a long time ago if it wasn't for all the updates and reworks that made the game a lot more fun, the old champions and all their point and click non sense were really grating. I still really dislike the fact they haven't done the same with Veigar, Malzahar etc. The old runes were whatever, I made 3 optimal pages and never looked back, the old masteries were a bit better in the sense I would sometimes make changes during the lobby, but it was nowhere near the level of polish and ingenuity of the current runes, the new system is a lot more modern.
Cavesloth1 votesWow can I get some of the uppers you're on? Cause that's some Nick Cannon level shit.
cocacolalips2 votesI think the major difference between me and some players is that I've played a lot of different games over the years, including a lot of obscure sh!t or other stuff that was never released in the west, when I say LoL is a great game atm, I'm comparing it to everything else, you won't find a better multiplayer game that mixes action and strategy in a AAA game format like LoL does, the next closest things (ignoring bad copycats) are mediocre battle arena indie games that are devoid of strategy or "ugly" grindy pay-to-win asian MMOs with PvP, or single player strategy games where you fight an AI that are usually turn based.
If someone makes a better competitive game with the same style of gameplay then sure I wouldn't mind jumping ships, I'm always open to good games.
Cavesloth1 votesWell the gaming industry is just a garbage fire atm, I'll give you that, and I'll even give you that it might still be the best in the genre (Only other one I've played is HotS and that was boring and unrewarding), but it's not even as good as it's former self. A little change is fine, but too much and just for the sake of itself like League has done is just flat out stupid. If I were to try and play again, it'd take quite awhile to adapt to everything that's changed, and I've only been gone 5 months, someone coming back from a year or two hiatus would just say f this and move on. At leagues age, they should be looking at player retention, not flashy shit to attract new players.
No sane person could look at the snowball effect the Runes Reforged and say, this was a good change or even a good idea in the first place. Snowball is ALWAYS bad, and its something that should be minimized, not crank the dial to 11 and break the knob like RIot has done. One could argue the higher damage and one shots are fine (IMHO they completely remove strategy and fun from the game), but snowball is just flat out unacceptable, and everything should be done to remove every last vestige of it from the game entirely. Its what makes wins unrewarding and losses feel like torture. It has to go.
Palaver2 votesI agree.
BeatzBoyFTW3 votesActual presence.
Z3Sleeper2 votesFor old runes vs Runes Reforged: additional class-wide balance levers. The values old runes gave vs the direct value you get from new runes is nearly equal. However this is skewed on a champion by champion basis given all champions got individual base stat tweaks (which end up resulting in overall more stats than before since they were nothing but increases).
For old masteries vs Runes Reforged they really don't differ too much other than numbers being generally higher, which is one of the many causes of damage creep.
But to further explain the first sentence, new runes essentially force certain classes into one or two paths, giving Riot the ability to give class wide "runes" essentially without the players having the option to simply take a different path since the stats are tied to the "masteries" now. They can then tweak both these values and the value of the masteries in them to nerf or buff classes as a whole (they've done this several times already).
It's not a huge difference from what they could do with old runes, but a small improvement nonetheless.
The biggest change is simply to user friendliness rather than balance as a whole, given masteries and runes no longer need to be set up, making the "setup" process more streamlined.
Also most of the new masteries are much more intuitive than before. Of course there are still some "spec into me for straight up more damage/stats" masteries such as the entire Combat line, Celerity, Revitalize and Cosmic Insight; but even then those runes still have gimmicks tied to their usage.
But yes, the new rune stats and masteries do offer straight up more than before, but that's a numbers issue, not an issue with the system.
Bijeesny2 votesFor old runes vs Runes Reforged: additional class-wide balance levers. The values old runes gave vs the direct value you get from new runes is nearly equal. However this is skewed on a champion by champion basis given all champions got individual base stat tweaks (which end up resulting in overall more stats than before since they were nothing but increases).
Which resulted in damage creep, and that's the reason I'm against this new system- bigger impact resulted in gameplay issues.
But to further explain the first sentence, new runes essentially force certain classes into one or two paths, giving Riot the ability to give class wide "runes" essentially without the players having the option to simply take a different path since the stats are tied to the "masteries" now. They can then tweak both these values and the value of the masteries in them to nerf or buff classes as a whole (they've done this several times already).
But that means Riot forced limited choices on champs, which is another thing I find stupid- Why taking away the player's choice to customize his stats however he wants? And the fact that buffing or nerfing classes depends on runes is even worse. Which proves my point on how negative impact these runes have
It's not a huge difference from what they could do with old runes, but a small improvement nonetheless.
Small improvements could be done without removing old runes. Just my opinion.
The biggest change is simply to user friendliness rather than balance as a whole, given masteries and runes no longer need to be set up, making the "setup" process more streamlined.
At the cost of removing that skill in building your rune pages.
Also most of the new masteries are much more intuitive than before. Of course there are still some "spec into me for straight up more damage/stats" masteries such as the entire Combat line, Celerity, Revitalize and Cosmic Insight; but even then those runes still have gimmicks tied to their usage.
Gimmicks? There are literally 3 ways to proc every rune effect: damaging some1, being damaged and w8ing for a specific point in the game. There are maybe 3-4 runes which doesn't require any of this conditions but that's it.
Z3Sleeper1 votesWhich resulted in damage creep, and that's the reason I'm against this new system- bigger impact resulted in gameplay issues.
Resulted in damage creep because the numbers are higher than before, not because the system is flawed. They need to just nerf the numbers but I doubt that'd happen until a preseason because that's a massive change.
But that means Riot forced limited choices on champs, which is another thing I find stupid- Why taking away the player's choice to customize his stats however he wants? And the fact that buffing or nerfing classes depends on runes is even worse. Which proves my point on how negative impact these runes have
Because when you are allowed to fully customize the rune stats, a superior build emerges 100% guaranteed that defines the meta for that champion. That champion will then be balanced to account for this meta rune build and thus make other rune builds more sub-optimal than before. It was essentially a false choice that really only let you choose the top 1 or 2 builds.
The difference between that system and the new one is that the rune stats are tied to the masteries, meaning champions aren't both optimizing rune stats and masteries which creates more diversity in viable builds since there's a higher chance no build will completely outshine the others.
For instance, look at ADC. The only viable rune build was AD reds, Armor yellows, MR/CDR glyphs and AD quints for every ADC in the game. Now we have more different unique rune stat and mastery combinations not only among ADC as a class, but among several individual ADCs.
Miss Fortune is going Comet/Dark Harvest and using all 5 secondary paths (4 rune stat builds), Tristana is going all 3 Precision Keystones + Sorc/Dom/Inspiration secondary (2 rune stat builds) and Ezreal is taking Klepto/DH with Prec/Sorc/Insp secondary (3 rune stat builds).
At the cost of removing that skill in building your rune pages.
Subject to personal bias. Some like the setup process, some don't. I personally don't. Especially since there wasn't any real theory-crafting to be done once the meta rune builds shone over all the others. Theory-crafting/optimization "skill" was quickly disregarded by the ability to simply look up the meta build. That's my take on it.
Gimmicks? There are literally 3 ways to proc every rune effect: damaging some1, being damaged and w8ing for a specific point in the game. There are maybe 3-4 runes which doesn't require any of this conditions but that's it.
While in a broad sense yes that's how they are used, they are more nuanced than that. Aside from Keystones which are the most unique, almost every rune has niche tied to their activation/bonus stats. Going through all of them would take a lot of time so I'll just list all sources of bonus damage and their activation requirement.
They've essentially covered almost every possible kind of gimmick of application of bonus damage or damage stats.
Bijeesny1 votesResulted in damage creep because the numbers are higher than before, not because the system is flawed. They need to just nerf the numbers but I doubt that'd happen until a preseason because that's a massive change.
And why numbers were high in the first place? Cuz of Runes Reforged. it doesn't matter if you say 'numbers from runes are the problem' or 'runes are the problem' it's still the same thing. And if Riot nerfes damage from runes, eventually they won't be as impactful. So you're back to the same 'issue' with old runes- they weren't impactful enough
Because when you are allowed to fully customize the rune stats, a superior build emerges 100% guaranteed that defines the meta for that champion. That champion will then be balanced to account for this meta rune build and thus make other rune builds more sub-optimal than before. It was essentially a false choice that really only let you choose the top 1 or 2 builds.
And you're just adressing my point even more.
The difference between that system and the new one is that the rune stats are tied to the masteries, meaning champions aren't both optimizing rune stats and masteries which creates more diversity in viable builds since there's a higher chance no build will completely outshine the others.
Give me at least 3 viable rune builds for Zed other than Dom/sorc (or whatever the fuck is standard for secondary tree) then I'll admit there is diversity.
For instance, look at ADC. The only viable rune build was AD reds, Armor yellows, MR/CDR glyphs and AD quints for every ADC in the game. Now we have more different unique rune stat and mastery combinations not only among ADC as a class, but among several individual ADCs.
Miss Fortune is going Comet/Dark Harvest and using all 5 secondary paths (4 rune stat builds), Tristana is going all 3 Precision Keystones + Sorc/Dom/Inspiration secondary (2 rune stat builds) and Ezreal is taking Klepto/DH with Prec/Sorc/Insp secondary (3 rune stat builds).
Mf can go either standard crit or lethality, that's the only reason she can go DH and Comet. And I never saw Trist mains going for Lethal Tempo...Where have you seen that? In Vietnam b5 elo? xD Ez is the only champ in the entire game who still uses Klepto btw and DH....Are you watching nb3 by any chance? And if by saying 'diversity' you mean 'being able to swap keystones' then idk what to say to you.
Subject to personal bias. Some like the setup process, some don't. I personally don't. Especially since there wasn't any real theory-crafting to be done once the meta rune builds shone over all the others. Theory-crafting/optimization "skill" was quickly disregarded by the ability to simply look up the meta build. That's my take on it.
I personally never had issues with custom rune builds. Like I said, i was using my own runes, even during the Ardent meta where meta runes were full gold gen on supps, and I was karma main at the time.
While in a broad sense yes that's how they are used, they are more nuanced than that. Aside from Keystones which are the most unique, almost every rune has niche tied to their activation/bonus stats. Going through all of them would take a lot of time so I'll just list all sources of bonus damage and their activation requirement.
- Damaging someone
- Enemy more health (Cut Down)
- Enemy below 40%/Killing enemy (Coup De Grace)
- Self low health (Last Stand)
- CSing & takedowns (Legend line)
- Target CC'd (Cheap Shot)
- Dash/Blink used (Sudden Impact)
- Ward Takedown (Zombie Ward/Eyeball Collection)
- Takedowns (Eyeball Collection/Hunter line/Chrysalis)
- Ghost Poro in enemy territory (Ghost Poro)
- Over 40% CDR (Transcendence)
- Bonus Movement Speed (Celerity)
- Over 70% Health (Absolute Focus)
- Ability hit (Scorch)
- Being in the river (Waterwalking)
- Time (Gathering Storm)
- Long cooldown (Taste of Blood... yeah this is the worst designed one)
No matter how you put it, almost all runes comes down to 3 conditions I listed, minor details won't change that fact.
They've essentially covered almost every possible kind of gimmick of application of bonus damage or damage stats.
Well seeing these new champs, like it's hard to dish out bonus dmg in different ways smh
Z3Sleeper1 votesAnd why numbers were high in the first place? Cuz of Runes Reforged. it doesn't matter if you say 'numbers from runes are the problem' or 'runes are the problem' it's still the same thing. And if Riot nerfes damage from runes, eventually they won't be as impactful. So you're back to the same 'issue' with old runes- they weren't impactful enough
Because runes are only a small portion of the system. The main system is the mastery system. The rune stats are simply more than before when you combine them with base stat buffs everyone received. It was a misstep on their part.
Just because +9 AD from new runes is the same as +9 AD ad from old runes doesn't completely invalidate the new system lol.
Give me at least 3 viable rune builds for Zed other than Dom/sorc (or whatever the fuck is standard for secondary tree) then I'll admit there is diversity.
Zed actually takes literally every secondary tree except Inspiration.
Sorcery: Transcendence, Nullifying Orb, Gathering Storm, Celerity Precision: Triumph, Coup De Grace, Legend: Alacrity Resolve: Chrysalis, Bone Plating, Second Wind
Time to admit it then.
And I never saw Trist mains going for Lethal Tempo...Where have you seen that? In Vietnam b5 elo? xD
Oof sorry BR Challenger Luskka, the bot laner of ProGaming Esports, this dude just burned you.
Ez is the only champ in the entire game who still uses Klepto btw and DH....Are you watching nb3 by any chance?
Doesn't change the fact he's got diversity. And no, I'm watching the Korean consistent Challenger (currently Masters) Afreeca Freecs Jungler Spirit playing Ezreal jungle.
And if by saying 'diversity' you mean 'being able to swap keystones' then idk what to say to you.
Both Keystones (which implies primary trees) and secondary trees.
I personally never had issues with custom rune builds. Like I said, i was using my own runes, even during the Ardent meta where meta runes were full gold gen on supps, and I was karma main at the time.
Noone did, every league build site made sure of that.
No matter how you put it, almost all runes comes down to 3 conditions I listed, minor details won't change that fact.
Well seeing these new champs, like it's hard to dish out bonus dmg in different ways smh
Dishing out damage requires damaging. No sh-t they're gonna require damaging an opponent. At least these runes go out of their way to create conditions that you must meet first before dealing the damage.
PhearBunny1 votesEven to this day, I don't understand what was the point of Runes Reforged. What are they offering that old runes couldn't?
staleness pushes away as many players as unwanted changes.
XeroKimo1 votesI normally say having more tools to create balance makes it easier to have an overall balanced game, but I think runes and masteries were an unnecessary amount of extra tools to balance the game around. Runes reforged kinda simplified it by currently giving less options, but the amount of options you get to choose is limited to 6 runes over the 60 points of runes + masteries. Why won't Riot remove them all together? Because it's part of league's unique experience just like summoner spells
Bijeesny1 votesI normally say having more tools to create balance makes it easier to have an overall balanced game, but I think runes and masteries were an unnecessary amount of extra tools to balance the game around. Runes reforged kinda simplified it by currently giving less options, but the amount of options you get to choose is limited to 6 runes over the 60 points of runes + masteries. Why won't Riot remove them all together? Because it's part of league's unique experience just like summoner spells
Why do you think that runes and masteries were unecessary tools to balance the game? In my opinion when runes used to be just stats they were more like tools meant to fulfill things which some champions needed. I mean, if you made a rune setup for specific champ or group of them you would usually look for stats which were needed for them right?
They were tools to help champions, but not to help overall balance.
XeroKimo1 votesI don't think they were unnecessary, there were just too many, both in choices and what you can choose therefore unnecessary extra choices. Like why bother having 60 choices from the maybe ~200 things to choose from (this is combining tier 3 runes + masteries) along with the many combinations to choose from.
I prefer having the runes reforged simply because there's less choices you need to make for the same thing, there's just not enough choices to choose from yet. That and you can't really "choose" your stats yet, which Riot said they were planning to add back
YG TheyWorshipMe1 votesEven to this day, I don't understand what was the point of Runes Reforged. What are they offering that old runes couldn't?
Money. Now Riot can force you to play what they can profit most.( New expensive champs etc..)
The Bad Touch12 votesI'm still praying for a season 2-5 private server with old runes/masteries.
Cause this new shit reeks of CoD generation... and how GC fucked up WoW.
WiegrafOfValor3 votesOne can only dream :(
floo2 votesI believe they answered this with something like "We don't have previous patches saved somewhere.. so updated champs and all are gone."
Cavesloth2 votesWhich just goes to show how next level stupid they are. Billion dollar company, can't save a few GB worth of old data
floo1 votesIt's not just a few GB I'd say.. They reworked entire champions, items, assets and so on, which have to be adapted to the games code of today. Not a simple task.
Cavesloth3 votesYeah it would be hard to update it, but not keeping it AT ALL when storage is so cheap is still NEXT LEVEL stupid.
floo2 votesProbably. Tho 3 years ago they probably didn't think "Hey we're gonna mess up the entire game in some years, let's save some of this."
Cavesloth1 votesIt usually gets saved for a "Just in case we break something so bad it's unfixable 1 patch from now we can revert it" and then it doesn't get deleted, just archived in case. The fact that they had to go OUT OF THEIR WAY to delete it is why its next level stupid. Its like saying "We're not human and never make mistakes, NEVER LOOK BACK RIGHT!!!?"
floo1 votesI understand you ^^ would also try a mode for season 5 again. But after all.. they are just humans, right? They can also make mistakes :D
Cavesloth1 votesThat's my point. Only someone of extreme arrogance would delete the previous versions ON PURPOSE. This isn't "Oops I forgot to save it", this is "We don't need that shit, we on fleek son!"
fire wolf044 voteswould be nice to get back my 8hp regen lvl 1 mundo page but will probs not happen:c
Vile Odium3 votes100% Agree
Support Position3 votes[sg-soraka] Please.....
Quantinium2 votesIt would make Akali way better, she can get some energy regen
SweedishGunner2 votesPlease I want my armour and scaling AP back.
Stand Alone Wolf2 votesaaaah, the sweet memories of the very originals... Glyph's Seals Marks Quintessences
Celiorap2 votesJust revert to Season 7 in general lmao. Literally enjoyed the game 100% when LCS ended and they nerfed Ardent. It felt like every lane had potential to carry if they were good enough. It felt like you had impact, and you got to build the way the game suited you.
This season everyone is a carry. All you have to do is push lane and roam. Its actually brain dead and requires no skill.
SugeMinPikk1 votesSome rioter said at some point that preseason 9 would see old runes come back in a way, but massively simplified and a lot of stats unavailable (like maximum energy)
Schenix1 votesRunes and masteries needed an update. However, I also do think that Runes Reforged was not a success for gameplay health even if it was for Keystone diversity. It gave up other diverse paths in the old Rune system, but in doing so -- also made it more accessible to new players both to use and to understand. There are pros and cons, but we're at a point where reverting is monumental, and remaking is even more colossal -- creating a sunk cost almost. If we do get a major overhaul, then back to pre-season we go; clearly a very wonderful and fun time. There's no winning at the moment, just have to live with however the Runes get balanced.
