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Can crit be reworked into ramping up DPS?

5000000000000000··110 votes·4,224 views

ADC as a class is meant to do sustained damage, and crits make AA more bursty. What if crit chance was reworked into ramping up AA damage over time/on-hit?

The general idea I had is that autoattacks can ramp up to 300% damage (probably needs tuning). But in order to reach that 300% damage, you need to AA. "Crit chance" (probably with a different name) would give you that much damage boost, up to that 300% cap. So item 3046 with 30% crit chance, with 100 AD, will do 100 on first AA, 130 on second, 160 on third, 190 on fourth, and all the way to 400 per AA on tenth AA. (all numbers up to adjustments, ofc; 200% might be more than enough)

If this would make on-hit champions broken, maybe it can just be changed to over time in combat. But the idea is that instead of crits giving damage straight up, it should give damage over time, since that's what DPSing is all about anyway.

Some other changes that can go along with this: item 3110: slows attack speed, or ramp up speed. item 3143: reduced damage from crits, but only on the crit portion (using above example, the damage would be 100, 127, 154, 181 ... 370) item 3508: not really sure what to do about this. This change focuses on DPS/AA carries, not AD casters. Mana refund could be adjusted fairly easily (probably based on how much crit damage you do), but not sure about CDR. CDR changing mid combat could be just confusing. item 3031: increase the crit cap to 400%. item 3046: MS also ramps up with crit stacks. item 3094: no major change item 3085: can ramp up crit at 50% effectiveness with other bolts, but can only crit on primary target item 3087: no major change

157 Comments

Sahn Uzal26 votes

Gangplank would need some serious love after such a change, because he doesn't get to ramp it up... But other than that, sure, that could do a lot for the game

50000000000000003 votes

I haven't thought about other classes building crit, so thank you for pointing this out. Using Q or AA to ramp it up before using barrel seems difficult/clunky.

Sahn Uzal6 votes

it'd be pretty much impossible to teamfight as GP :P

I think he would become a worse Tryndamere, build that ramp up and try to keep it up by aa-ing barrels if nothing is near, or he'll build full lethality and focus on winning the midgame, and hope he could end before his lethality build falls off

Hyrum Graff3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kqP0EJE7,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T18:45:05.400+0000)

it'd be pretty much impossible to teamfight as GP :P

I think he would become a worse Tryndamere, build that ramp up and try to keep it up by aa-ing barrels if nothing is near, or he'll build full lethality and focus on winning the midgame, and hope he could end before his lethality build falls off

Or they could give his barrels or ult crit scaling, or something like that.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

Yeah giving kegs an unique interaction with the stat should be fine

Hella Kaiser3 votes

♪♫CRIT RUNES GANGPLANK♫♪

Kingdom Corn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kqP0EJE7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-11T18:36:19.642+0000)

Gangplank would need some serious love after such a change, because he doesn't get to ramp it up... But other than that, sure, that could do a lot for the game

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THANK YOU!!!!

Spoofghoul2 votes

i dont even build crit on him anymore.

i just stack lethality.

item 3047 item 3078 item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 item 3065

Some scaling armor runes extra cdr a bit of mr to fill and another 24 lethality.

Then i just go 18/0/12 and grab warlords for additional sustain to help me in laning phase and 1v1's.

This gives me 74 lethality and 7% pen in addition to barrels 40% pen This way my barrels hurt alot all game long without relying on crit.

Any Additional changes needed for GP if he really needs any

Revert barrel bonus damage nerf

Z Statistic7 votes

A better solution would be to let crit damage scale with levels and to put it on items.

50000000000000001 votes

That's an interesting idea. Making crit damage modifier more abundant would make late game DPS even higher, but I don't think it'll solve the burst issue.

Z Statistic4 votes

More importantly, by putting in a fourth vector of scaling, we can depreciate the prevalence of the other 3 and even add base crit chance to champions if crit damage at lvl 1 is suffciently low.

AD items can have reduced AD on them, and I mean REDUCED. Cut IE by 10-20 AD, BT by 15-25, and pretty much every other AD item by about 25 to 30% and keep AD the same cost. THEN, buff ALL bonus AD ratios on NON-ADC by about 40-60% and total AD ratios by maybe 25% or so.

Now, we have the design space to make extremely hard hitting champions later on without worrying about crossover between AD caster, bruiser, and ADC itemization. It also would mean that bruisers and assassins would be even stronger early on compared to ADC, which might lead to some very interesting shakeups in the meta.

Champion Skin2 votes

Yeah adding a 4th element will allow you to reduced the other 3 Reducing AD from items will affect AD casters who will likely need to have some of their ratios increased (this might increase their burst though as it will move some of their power from auto attacks to their abilities)

Or you can do it by reducing AS from items this will obviously affect on-hit champions/builds to prevent them from being hurt too much you can just avoid hitting AS on non AD on-hit items which obviously don't have as much synergy with crit... or by increasing base AS (which basically makes each % of bonus AS more effective) or by increasing AS per level

Both would tune down AA dps.... though reducing AD is probably the best option simply because you want them to deal DPS not so much up front damage with high AD + crit

Hella Kaiser4 votes

no, this would favore A LOT high AS champs while being useless on low AS champs. and it would be broken af on jinx.

Toastersaot4 votes

For Non-Marksmen who build crit:

Gangplank : Make his barrels deal more bonus damage, and get him to build more AD and Pen (it would also be healthier, since it sucks when playing against GP and you get crit for 1K when he only has 20% Crit with item 3078 item 3142 item 3031 )

Tryndamere : TBH he probably needs a full VGU. RNJesus critting you out of lane with 35% crit chance at Level 2 really isn't that fun.

Yasuo : Probably would need buffs (sorry but just my opinion if this change went through) but not massive ones since he's already in line for some nerfs according to Ask Riot.

MasterYi : I guess he would have to go more On-Hit, but he will probably need a little bit of compensation, but not a ton.

Shaco He's apparently getting a full VGU sometime down the line, but his AD build is already sub-optimal, and his AP is getting nerfed, so he will definitely need some help.

Papa Andrei2 votes

Gp can have some sorta extra scaling with it, maybe something like the % of ramp up damage applies immediately to barrels (100 ramp up = an immediate 200-400 ramp up. )

Tryn passive as it is would just follow same principle, longer in fight, mroe he ramps up damage, but decreases quickly out of combat.

Yasuo same thing, doubles the amount gained from items or double the speed it is gained.

Yi,,, eh. he still can do alot with Blood, botrk, and tankiness.

Shaco just needs to have his scalings reset.

LordGeovanni4 votes

Riot doesnt realize the current version of crit taken from other games is balanced by haveing it high crit chance on close range assassins and medium to low crit chance on archers and gunsmen. not to mention that its mostly PvE games so no one on the other side feels wronged. I think they messed up when most crit items exceeded 20% crit chance. you can say rng feels bad but thats how its supposed to be balanced. now you have crit carries you cant reach before 80% of you hp is gone unless you are an invisible assassin and even when you reach them they can dash or run away from you if not just stand there and finish you off.

6Sfool3 votes

I do think crit and on-hit should be better together, but I don't think turning crit into a standard on-hit effect is the best way to go at it. I do like the ramping though. Maybe a mechanic like this could work:

Crit chance is replaced with Critical Aim, with no number cap. Critical aim: For each point of critical aim, autoattacks (on-attack, not on-hit) versus champions and monsters generate (1 / attack speed) stacks of Aim. Each stack of aim increases aa damage (including on-hit effects, but not on-use on-hit effects such as nasus q) by .5%. Stacks are capped at 10 * critical aim value. Stacks fall off at a rate of (critical aim points / attack speed) per second whenever an auto is ready, and autos against minions and turrets do not generate stacks but deal (critical aim points)% bonus damage

Just to clarify with a couple examples. Varus has 1.0 attack speed with 50 critical aim points (directly taken from crit chance values). Every auto he does against an enemy champion generates 50 (50 / 1) stacks of aim, increasing his aa damage by 25% (.5% * 50), and after 10 autos his stacks are maxed and he deals 350% damage on his aa's and blight applications. He would be completely oppressive in extended teamfights, but would have little upfront damage during the time that assassins and divers are trying to kill him.

Jinx has 2.0 attack speed and 50% critical aim points. Each auto generates 25 (50 / 2) stacks of aim, increasing aa damage by 12.5% (.5% * 25). In comparison to Varus, she takes twice as many autos but the same amount of time to reach full stacks.

Without factoring in changing aa speed, all champions whether fast or slow take about 10 seconds of constant autos to reach full stacks, at which point they deal a lot of damage. 100 critical aim points could result in 600% ad autos if not taken care of. Due to the way stacks fall off, if you keep a champ from autoing either by making them run or by stunning them, they may never become a real threat if zoned properly, and a crit champ that leaves mid-fight cannot just come back and clean up.

Because there is no cap to critical aim points, you do not have to make decisions on whether it will max you out, but whether you would prefer early damage with raw ad or later damage with high crit. Items would have to be balanced around this, and there could never be many items with high ad and crit because champions with high crit have to make ad sacrifices to get that multiplier very high.

Builds likeitem 3508 item 3812 item 3046 item 3087 item 3026 item 1001 give 155 bonus ad and 80 crit stacks on top of ~100 base ad, making initial autos deal 255 damage but late autos deal 1275 damage. Killing them quickly or keeping their stacks down by stopping them from autoing is essential to the outcome of teamfights.

50000000000000002 votes

Similar concept, but I think how it ramps up is better implemented in your case. It was kinda hard to understand at first but examples helped.

Tukan Tonko2 votes

{quoted}

I do think crit and on-hit should be better together, but I don't think turning crit into a standard on-hit effect is the best way to go at it. I do like the ramping though. Maybe a mechanic like this could work:

Crit chance is replaced with Critical Aim, with no number cap. Critical aim: For each point of critical aim, autoattacks (on-attack, not on-hit) versus champions and monsters generate (1 / attack speed) stacks of Aim. Each stack of aim increases aa damage (including on-hit effects, but not on-use on-hit effects such as nasus q) by .5%. Stacks are capped at 10 * critical aim value. Stacks fall off at a rate of (critical aim points / attack speed) per second whenever an auto is ready, and autos against minions and turrets do not generate stacks but deal (critical aim points)% bonus damage

Just to clarify with a couple examples. Varus has 1.0 attack speed with 50 critical aim points (directly taken from crit chance values). Every auto he does against an enemy champion generates 50 (50 / 1) stacks of aim, increasing his aa damage by 25% (.5% * 50), and after 10 autos his stacks are maxed and he deals 350% damage on his aa's and blight applications. He would be completely oppressive in extended teamfights, but would have little upfront damage during the time that assassins and divers are trying to kill him.

Jinx has 2.0 attack speed and 50% critical aim points. Each auto generates 25 (50 / 2) stacks of aim, increasing aa damage by 12.5% (.5% * 25). In comparison to Varus, she takes twice as many autos but the same amount of time to reach full stacks.

Without factoring in changing aa speed, all champions whether fast or slow take about 10 seconds of constant autos to reach full stacks, at which point they deal a lot of damage. 100 critical aim points could result in 600% ad autos if not taken care of. Due to the way stacks fall off, if you keep a champ from autoing either by making them run or by stunning them, they may never become a real threat if zoned properly, and a crit champ that leaves mid-fight cannot just come back and clean up.

Because there is no cap to critical aim points, you do not have to make decisions on whether it will max you out, but whether you would prefer early damage with raw ad or later damage with high crit. Items would have to be balanced around this, and there could never be many items with high ad and crit because champions with high crit have to make ad sacrifices to get that multiplier very high.

Builds likeitem 3508 item 3812 item 3046 item 3087 item 3026 item 1001 give 155 bonus ad and 80 crit stacks on top of ~100 base ad, making initial autos deal 255 damage but late autos deal 1275 damage. Killing them quickly or keeping their stacks down by stopping them from autoing is essential to the outcome of teamfights.

What if they have lifesteal? And cleanse? Would be impossible to stop them, the only way would be burst, but since this would make ADc primary targets, it would mean that entire team will be protecting their ADc and also trying to kill enemy ADc. This would mean that game would be rounded only around ADc, which means that it would be unbalanced. The one who gets stacks faster becomes god, penta kills every game. This would drastically change game. More ADcs in games, more tanks in games. Mages would be useless at this point, because, yes, they still have burst, but how do you want to go behind enemy lines not getting CCd and IKd by ADc? Yeah, I somehow like your idea, but you have to think about many things in game, how would it change meta, how would other champions perform, how items like lifesteal would work, will CCs be OP? Will they be useless? Why would anyone build crit on melees then? Would be thornmail OP? How would armor pen items work, exhaust, ignite, creeps, towers... Almost everything would have to be adjusted just to apply one change.

6Sfool2 votes

I do know that this is game-warping, but sometimes the game needs big change. First off, very many balance changes would need to be made. Lifesteal would be less effective early in fights because their damage starts low, so they couldn't really out-heal burst. For the later stages lifesteal may need to be changed (it's broken already) to be less effective, such as half strength on crit damage or no scaling at all. Also, not every adc builds crit, and some that do such as jhin and ashe may be left out of this change. Those that do put themselves in constant danger by needing to be in auto range to keep their stacks up. The idea of stacks falling off becomes the main point of crit builds. Those that have fast autos would need to be in the thick of it with little to no kiting to generate stacks fast enough, so there would be a great deal of risk-reward.

Adc's that focus on straight damage would not have to survive long to dish out damage because they are not affected by the scaling.

As for composition, it would be changed but there would still be variety. Pick comps would be more effective against crit comps, but less effective against non-crit comps. Protect the adc comps would only be really effective when the adc has crit. However, I don't really know what to do about trynd, taric, and kayle ults because they would allow for free stacking (maybe invulnerabilities would freeze stacks?). Tank comps would be untouchable for the first few seconds of a fight, but they would need to have a good mix of vanguards and fighters to take out threats, because immobile tanks are just free stacks for the adc. Squishy comps would be mostly unaffected, but would be best if none of them had crit.

Melees will inherently be a problem if they are both sticky and tanky due to their high base stats, but fighter builds are kind of boring, maybe tuning them around new crit builds would help with diversity.

Mages would still be useful because they always have good presence in a fight, which most adc's don't. They would shine at the beginnings of fights as the safest source of dps, and may actually counter adc's more than anyone else due to strong zoning.

There's a lot of factors to look out for, and I'm glad you brought them up, but remember that almost all of them can be tuned. Crit is a stat, and changing a stat across the board always warrants a lot of other changes both to meta builds and to the usefulness of certain comps.

Champion Skin1 votes

While yes I think it could be good quite good.... Though how would IE work with this?

Oh and it seems like it would be quite strong with auto attack resets? Hmm and would Lucian passive proc this twice or once? I am not entirely sure how lucian passive work with on-attack effects....

6Sfool2 votes

I can't quite remember how doublestrikes like yi's and lucian's work, but if the double attack stacks guinsoo's twice then it procs on-attack effects twice. Infinity edge would likely increase the stacking speed and maximum stacks by 50%, so it would definitely need a rebalance. AA reset champions would be more likely to use crit because they can stack it faster, but many aa reset champs care more about initial burst than sustained fights.

Tukan Tonko3 votes

Well, if it's like that the only thing that would matter would be who gets that max damage first, making all other champions playing only for/against ADc. Also, if you remove burst just to give them even more damage after few attack it wouldn't work. I would love if this idea was somehow corrected and balanced, it would be really interesting to actually see it in game, ofc in balanced form, because this is really making crit incredibly valuable and it makes ADc the only one who would do damage. Also, you need to think about lifesteal as well when considering this, many, many other factors would influence this.

50000000000000003 votes

Maybe the cap/rampup speed should be lowered. I think the example above may be overtuned, too.

And as for lifesteal, I'm not sure how to adjust it. But ADCs shouldn't be able to draintank, that much I know.

Shaco my BFF3 votes

So a 500 AD marksman will now hit 2000s every attack? - I'll pass. I'll take my 20% chance of not getting one shot.

50000000000000005 votes

500 AD build would probably have a very low crit chance and attack speed. For them to reach 2000 crit every attack, it'll probably take over 10~20 seconds.

Shaco my BFF2 votes

item 3072 item 3031 item 3036 item 3139 item 3085 item 3087 item 2140

380 AD on Caitlyn.

444 AD on Vayne (with ultimate)

Now add potential runes, masteries, dragon bonuses and Baron buff.

For 100% crit chance, you can swap item 3139 for item 3508 or if you want more attack speed, get item 3046 .

50000000000000002 votes

If this change were to go through, the stat that items give would be changed accordingly.

GigaPube3 votes

not sure about the suggestions and their numbers, but this is genius. and i thought the suggestion about a linear damage increase (flat and/or percentage) was good

i really dont think this will be implemented this year though, even if they are aware of this by now. its too big a change, even for mid-season. all the pro teams would complain about not being ready, and its not THAT big a deal. also they'd need to make sure it absolutely fixes everything, or at least they cant make more problems than there are now

Badmagick3 votes

So you want crit to become ferver basically?

Stillname3 votes

Couple of issues I see with this line of change.

  • Tank becomes this "warm up" champion that the adc hits until they are at full power then cheeses the whole enemy team.

  • Bruisers only need to build one item to get some effectiveness from this then 1v1s with them become ridiculous. Just build item 3078 then they become a monster split-pusher that no tank can deal. (they are pretty good with the item right now but this would be crazy good for them)

  • The melee carries that liked to build some crit and are already pretty bad in the game currently get absolutely wrecked by this. Sure it helps them split better but their team-fight will be almost non-existent.

I do like to see that the community is trying to come up with new ideas to replace crit though because it is a stat that just doesn't go well in this game and could use a rework.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Problem with ramping damage is that ADCs are expected to clear waves very quickly late game. Without crits it takes several autos to kill a minion.

500000000000000017 votes

Don't mages have better AoE? Most tanks also have decent waveclear.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

Don't mages have better AoE? Most tanks also have decent waveclear.

Several mages lost waveclear with the 6.9 update. And tanks have to stand in the middle of the wave to clear it, which opens themselves up to get attacked by the enemy team. It's the same reason that Jax and Tryn are really good at taking turrets but are much better at splitting than at pushing with the team, because the lack of range just gets them killed.

50000000000000002 votes

Hmm, okay. I'm not sure how to address this.

Gnart Even Close22 votes

it's almost like they made items for it: item 3087 item 3085

Bârd2 votes

This is a massive nerf to anyone who either can't hit quickly or who relies on the burst of crits.

Draven Graves Gangplank Jhin to name a few.

50000000000000003 votes

Like many have said already, ramping up based on time attacking might be better. At least for Draven, Graves, and Jhin. As for others who rely on crit as part of their burst combo, such as Gangplank or Shaco, I think they should be compensated with special interactions with crits.

khorney1 votes

Soooo you want every adc to be jhin and ashe

50000000000000003 votes

Ashe's damage spikes after slowing enemy (either AA or spell), and after getting 4 stacks of focus. Jhin only gets extra powerful 4th shot, but nothing in between. I'm proposing slow, gradual rampup with no real spike points.

khorney1 votes

Read there passives again......they don't crit bUT it is part of there overall damage .

50000000000000003 votes

It's still different, though? If you're talking about crit chance just doing %damage increase, that's not what I'm proposing.

khorney2 votes

What u are saying is essentially what jhin and ashe can already do.

50000000000000003 votes

Jhin/Ashe gets bonus damage from building crit chance straight up. My proposed change is that you still do 100% AD damage at first, then you keep getting more damage as you keep fighting.

If Ashe has 100 AD and 30% crit chance, her attacks will do 100, 140, 140, 140... If a normal marksman has 100 AD and 30% crit chance with the proposed change, the attacks will do 100, 130, 160, 190, ...

khorney1 votes

So again you want every adc to be like ashe and jhin,

50000000000000003 votes

Are you trolling me or do you actually think this? I think it's pretty clear that they're different by now.

WingsofGulgazor1 votes

VVVVVinstead of this do thisVVVV

it's easy 100% crit makes you do 200% dmg.

So Riot should just make adc's if they have 10% crit they do 110% dmg if they have 20 they do 120% dmg 30 they do 130% ect.

and then this gets multiplied a bit when IE is added so that 20% crit would give 130% increase in dmg 30% would get 145% 40 would get 160% aand then cap it out at 100% crit.

in the end doing this will give adc's the same dps but just make the dps more consistent. Then for champions like tryndamere they might keep the old system since it might work better for him.

50000000000000005 votes

This has been proposed many times, but I don't think a Rioter responded, so I'm assuming that Riot doesn't like this idea. I'm okay with that too, for removing RNG (the output randomness, as a designer said in one of the dev blogs), but my proposed change is more focused on DPS build not having burst.

Rozair1 votes

isnt that furvor?

50000000000000003 votes

Fervor too rewards ramping up, yes. As does many other abilities (Jax passive AS boost, Jinx Q AS boost, Hecarim Q reduced CD, etc.).

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