Nerf Ryze already

DiamondSeed··10 votes·6,037 views

First off, I am a Ryze main. I have played Ryze since the rework and this season I've put over 500 games on 4 different accounts on him. Originally, my stance was that Ryze was extremely weak but I worked on a few aspects of my gameplay to only realize how strong he actually is.

My first main issue was mana consumption. This is a problem in soloQ, in comparison to professional play, because your jungler, regardless of how competent they are, will most likely not give you their blue buff. Blue buff is very important to mana oriented midlaners and is EXTREMELY important to Ryze because of how much his abilities cost in the early game. After they nerfed his E mana from 40 -> 60 level 1 it proved inefficient to max it first since it was originally maxed first to increase Q damage output. Thus after this nerf it was more mana efficient to put 3 levels into Q before investing in E. Even doing it this way it is still costly but when they changed AAS into Tear + Lost chapter it became much easier to manage mana costs. Currently, in the most average elo [Silver], once I get Tear + Lost chapter + Ionian boots I can shove any midlaner out of lane while maintaining decent mana levels. Not only can I shove lanes quickly I can sufficiently harass nearly any midlaner out of lane. Now, it is harder to harass artillery mages such as Lux, Velkoz, and Xerath but my push is stronger than theirs and my rotations are up more frequently. Even if I cannot punish certain midlaners I can roam and secure kills elsewhere.

My second main issue is that I couldn't CS properly. In the early game I would often use abilities to clear the first few waves but I learned that it is better to last hit the waves (even though last hitting is difficult) and harass the enemy midlaner. Since we are maxing Q first, it is easy to land Q and proc scorch applying heavy damage. At rank 3 Q, Q does 110 magic damage or 110 + 110*.40 (if affected by E flux). This is huge seeing as Ryze Q is on a flat 6sec CD but at 30% it is up nearly every 4 seconds. It is extremely easy to freeze the wave in front of my tower, last hitting as needed, then harassing people with Q for near no mana cost. It is very to abuse Ryze this way since Q doesn't draw minion aggro and when you do take minion aggro you can mitigate it by EWQ and obtaining a shield.

My third main issue was that I felt like I couldn't do anything mid-game and part of it was due to my itemization. I played old s5 perma-stun Ryze so I was used to drain tanking with RoA so naturally I built RoA but changing it to Morellonomicon was probably the best choice I made. Morello provides 15 magic penetration, 80 AP, and 300 health. With RoA you would have to wait 10 minutes to gain 200 HP, 100 mana, and 40AP. This delay is HUGE in the current meta and Ryze building Morello + E flux (spread) + Q on an entire team is absolutely digusting damage not to mention applying Grievous wounds on ALL OF THEM. Since I was so used to old Ryze I frequently resorted to building tank but it really doesn't work with current Ryze. I either build glass cannon or I ask to lose. Building Seraphs + Ionian -> Morellonomicon -> Rabadon -> Void Staff -> (Zhonyas or FH) creates a monster of a champion. Applying flat magic penetration, % magic penetration, Grievous wounds, E flux Q damage destroys enemy teams and it is, unfortuantely, very easy to do.

My fourth issue is how effectively Ryze utilizes Ravenous Hunter. With how much damage he can output + ravenous hunter and (if) Abyssal Mask/RoA makes current Ryze even more of a drain tank than old Ryze. This becomes an evident problem when you get max stacks with a fully stacked AAS. There has been situations where I've been ignited but due to how often my abilities are up, how often I can shield combo, and Seraph's active I completely mitigate ignite damage. With Ravenous Hunter I have seen my post-death damage dealt on me and I've seen that I took 2 times the amount of health I had because of how much I can tank

Essentially, I am extremely sorry for complaining about how weak Ryze was, both on this account and my other accounts. I was merely abusing a champion to almost his max potential and I guess I wanted more. I think that the areas that need to be nerfed are his Q and E. They are too reliant and up too often so I would suggest spacing them out by increasing their CDs or by delaying Q reset after E or W are used. Ryze is a generalist and a safe champion. HIs scaling is too good for how strong his early game is so that is where I would want to nerf more.

Thank you, DiamondSeed.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=diamondseed

18 Comments

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Nerfing his Q and E might fix a few problems, but the core problem Ryze has is that his W is a point and click root with no situations where it's not available, excluding cooldown.

Make his W a skillshot, and it'll drop his winrate a lot, but it'll fix the core underlying problem of him being a colossal pain in the ass to fight because of his W. Once that core underlying problem is fixed, he can be buffed and nerfed accordingly.

I do want to congratulate you, though. It's not easy to actually say that you were wrong, especially about your main. So good job there, honestly. :3

DiamondSeed1 votes

I suggested in the past to make unempowered W a decent slow and empowered (E flux) W a root. W needs to be a decent slow to land EQ combo but also allow for the affected individual to respond to the debuff. I don't think W can ever be a skillshot so long as champions like Irelia and Yi (and other champions) exist. W needs to remain a lock down but it shouldn't be an ability to engage. W needs to be a powerful single unit lock down but it shouldn't eliminate the other champions ability to respond. If W is made to a point and click slow then we get rid of the problem of "instant rooting" someone which some may argue unfair. Applying E then W to extend the root projects to the enemy that he is being engaged on and will have time to react.

What my solution is that there needs to be a delay on W or Q reset. Ryze needs to smoothly chain his abilities, not smash and expect results. This smooth execution o f abilities obviously needs to be rewarded so what I thought was that if you space out abilities with 1 or 1.5 second intervals [ON CHAMPIONS] then he could possibly get mana returned. Maybe this could be attached to his current passive. Thus Ryze would have to decide whether to quickly execute abilities to escape (and not get mana) or duel (while spacing out abilities) and get mana returned. I have plenty more ideas, maybe this isn't a good one.

Keshaun1 votes

{quoted}

I suggested in the past to make unempowered W a decent slow and empowered (E flux) W a root. W needs to be a decent slow to land EQ combo but also allow for the affected individual to respond to the debuff. I don't think W can ever be a skillshot so long as champions like Irelia and Yi (and other champions) exist. W needs to remain a lock down but it shouldn't be an ability to engage. W needs to be a powerful single unit lock down but it shouldn't eliminate the other champions ability to respond. If W is made to a point and click slow then we get rid of the problem of "instant rooting" someone which some may argue unfair. Applying E then W to extend the root projects to the enemy that he is being engaged on and will have time to react.

What my solution is that there needs to be a delay on W or Q reset. Ryze needs to smoothly chain his abilities, not smash and expect results. This smooth execution o f abilities obviously needs to be rewarded so what I thought was that if you space out abilities with 1 or 1.5 second intervals [ON CHAMPIONS] then he could possibly get mana returned. Maybe this could be attached to his current passive. Thus Ryze would have to decide whether to quickly execute abilities to escape (and not get mana) or duel (while spacing out abilities) and get mana returned. I have plenty more ideas, maybe this isn't a good one.

They were very close to pushing a slight rework to Ryze earlier in the year, but just gave up on the change since they saw he was still performing well on the PBE of all places. His W was going to be a 60% slow I believe that also refunded mana and a root if the target already had Flux applied to them. His E I believe was on a fat cooldown early game (I believe it was 12-15 seconds) and still the same mana cost, but went down significantly as you put points into it. Q wasn't changed if I remember correctly and his R was on a fat cooldown, but you could put 3 points into Realm Warp so you could TP further.

EDIT: Here's the link to the rework ideas earlier in the year. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/zjf6dLzc-ryze-work-on-pbe

5041545249434BOD1 votes

oh so you mean litterally just swap his abiltlys around Q W E?

Silver logic.

DiamondSeed1 votes

This comment would make more sense if you weren't actually silver.

5041545249434BOD1 votes

This comment would make more sense if you weren't actually silver.

i was plat last season and plat this season aswell till i didn't play and went back to gold 1.

AWKWARD.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=just+a+whisper

DiamondSeed1 votes

AWKWARD, look at your main champions. Absolutely pathetic. You're probably the type of person to say that Master Yi and Tryndamere are weak too huh?

5041545249434BOD1 votes

Mad that i know how to climb bro?

What a typical low elo thing to say hahaha.

FYI Yi is quite weak into any CC duration, and Tryndamere is the same with ignite countering his ult. There's a reason why you don't see either of them in high solo Q they both suck, but you wouldn't know about that, yikes!

If zed ever comes back i'd be playing that constantly, but we all know that's not happening.

I hope you get back to gold, i really do!.

P.s sorry i forgot picking Jax into Yi OR Teemo/Lucian into Tryndamere was to hard for silver players LOL.

True Blunt4 votes

I have over 900 games with Ryze on 3 accounts. I have hit plat 3 on one of them. I play with lower elo friends with the other 2 accounts. My main thing about Ryze is, Yes, he is OP. I'd not one trick something that isn't OP, that'd be... stupid? I think?

The thing that makes him OP though, in my eyes, is his TANKINESS actually. He gets damage based on total mana still too DiamondSeed. So going frozen heart (and if they are all AD) iceborn guantlet first two items (even before Tear!) is not a bad idea! I have had people accuse me of scripting/ boosting/ smurfing etc multiple times. I have fought 3v1 4v1 deliberately walking into their team, and while I die killing maybe one, my team would come back me up after which, and the things they used to kill me was enough for my team to mop them/ brb in game

5041545249434BOD2 votes

You're 100% right dude, before seprah's nerf i 1v5'd as glass cannon ryze for a baron steal penta. his built in barrier with that item active was an absurd amount of tankiness for 0 defence items.

Although that being said my i still stand by that he's one of the weakest mid laners right now (Within reason / outside of counter picks favoring Ryze.)

5041545249434BOD1 votes

Ryze is actually one of the worst mid laners right now LOL.

And if you're thinking you can have your jglers first/second blue, well yah no shit you can't... unless they're energy based and even than they need it for level 6 if they haven't stole a enemy jungler camp.

Also according to your op.gg you have only "carried" one game and lost the rest. Outside of normal's you're hot trash and Ryze is part of that reason 100%.

Do you even watch anything on Ryze or any champion for that matter?

Good luck in silver.

DiamondSeed1 votes

I haven't played ranked in a while because classes started again and I'm in my final year so I am pushing through.

Ryze is arguably the strongest midlaner in terms of waveclear & roam potential (only outclassed by champions like ASol)

It's insane how ignorant you are while being Silver 2. Maybe if you actually played Ryze and mastered his mechanics instead of playing AA based champions (Azir, Teemo, Draven) and burst champions (LB) then you'd understand how strong Ryze is but instead you're talking shit.

Honestly, I could sweep the floor with you. You aren't shit.

Solicitude1 votes

Ryze is arguably the strongest midlaner in terms of waveclear & roam potential (only outclassed by champions like ASol)

Really? In what season? Because Ryze waveclear is so poor till you get close to item 3003 and even then there are quite a few mid laners that can outpush you. Ryze can be a mid-late game team-fighting monster but he is really weak in early. In higher elos, until you get Tear + Lost chapter the enemy midlaner has managed to harass you or, even worse, get advantages elsewhere, while you try to clear the waves while preserving mana, which leave you behind. Unless you get jungle help early you are going to lose most of the times.

I very much like Ryze. I used to play him until i got to around gold 1-2, where i started getting punished for it. Ryze is just even weaker now as the games are mostly won until 20mins and after that its only "closing". And you can see at what poor state Ryze is since his win rate is below 45% overall, one of the lowest, with his win rate only being higher above diamond 3, since players up there play more for objectives and the whole team knows how to play around Ryze.

A couple of nerfs more than that and Ryze will become one of the weakest champions of all times if you account overall stats.

DiamondSeed1 votes

Honestly, I think your mentality is extremely poor. Perhaps you're not wave clearing properly, not managing your mana, and probably not even auto attacking. For the first few waves you really don't need to try to shove the wave. Match your laners push and harass them.

It isn't the champion's fault that you're not strong at "20 minutes", it is your fault. Maybe you're not csing or roaming? Stop blaming everything on the champion because the more you do it the less likely you'll improve. I used to get mad that Ryze was "weak" but it is because I wasn't playing him properly.

Solicitude1 votes

Perhaps you're not wave clearing properly, not managing your mana, and probably not even auto attacking. For the first few waves you really don't need to try to shove the wave. Match your laners push and harass them.

I think this is a little poor, since im plat4, not bronze 5. I know quite well how to manipulate waves and how to farm. But, seriously, Ryze cant match waveclear with most midlaners unless he drains his mana early on.

You know, there are champions that are weak early game and Ryze is one of them. When i started playing ranked this year and was in silver 3 it was very easy to "bypass" Ryze's early game and win the lane. Once you move up its way difficult to do it. Its because your enemy laner also knows how to push and harass you. Things most silvers dont know how to do properly. Maybe thats why you are winning. And, really, i got mastery 7 on Ryze, i know how to play him, his weaknesses and strengths very well. I dont need to be taught how to play Ryze or how to improve by a silver player.

DiamondSeed1 votes

Ah, the old "you're silver so you suck and I am plat so I know better."

I offered advice and what you could have said was, "hey, I'm plat so I have a good grasp on these aspects of gaming so I think the issue stems from beyond that". I have played versus some really good silver/gold players, I have played during disadvantages, I have been incessantly camped and berated but I will continue to say it again and again, Ryze is too strong.

Solicitude1 votes

Well, maybe I was a little rough. Apologies. But, you know, neing treated like I dont know how to play the game felt somewhat insulting coming from a lower elo player. Anyway.

Probably he feels so strong for you because you know how to play better than other people in your elo. The champions I used to play in silver/low gold felt OP. But the higher you get the harder it gets to win your lane. People know how to punish you. And, while Ryze is strong later in the game, his current laning phase is one of the weakest ive ever seen. To the point were winning is difficult if youare giving your enemy a free lane.

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