I feel like a champion shouldn't be strong at all levels of the game, but the problem with tristana is that she is safe early and mid/late game she just burst everyone with her crit and all of her spells are point and click. So isn't that an example of a badly designed champion? I feel like you should be able to counter her more then just pick a champion that is op in early game.
MrHaZeYo4 votesShe's not strong early game, she's just safe. There is a difference.
ZephyrDrake3 votesok... since when is Tristana strong or even good in the early or mid game? she is safe in those stages of the game but she isn't doing anything to you in those stages... unless you fed her but at that point it's a you issue and not a tristana issue
Syrile2 votesYes. Full-stop.
Syrile2 votesGetting downrated because of honesty. :)
Safe, plus hyper-carry potential is actually a problem. Lets do a comparision:
Azir is too broken for the game so they nerf him into oblivion and leave him at the bottom of the cesspool they created for champions they keep messing up. Why though? Because he has a very strong late game with very high team fight damage, a dash, ranged attacks, an ultimate that knocks you back, and very good scaling with a very weak, easily punished early game (especially with the nerfs to range they gave him in 2017.
Tristana has a very strong late game, with very high team fight damage, a dash, ranged attacks, an ultimate that knocks you back, very good scaling and much better turret damage. However, she has more range, more consistent damage, a much, much, much easier kit to be good with and is harder to punish early game (especially with a support to help you out) and is not being nerfed into the ground or considered a problem at all.
The kit is very similar except one is a favorite of someone that matters and the other is good in pro play but is a scaling champion (one that gets ridiculously strong at a slower pace than Tristana if you think about it).
OtterlyLost1 votesNot nerfed into the ground. conveniently ignores the multiple nerfs she received before 8.11 despite only having a 50% wr conveniently also ignores how before her buffs after 8.11(which were garbage and didnt really help at all) she had a 46% wr also conveniently ignores how she's still only got a 48% wr and is hard countered by the current bot lane meta
But sure. Not nerfed into the ground.
Syrile1 votesNot nerfed into the ground. conveniently ignores the multiple nerfs she received before 8.11 despite only having a 50% wr conveniently also ignores how before her buffs after 8.11(which were garbage and didnt really help at all) she had a 46% wr also conveniently ignores how she's still only got a 48% wr and is hard countered by the current bot lane meta
But sure. Not nerfed into the ground.
You mean when they shredded all the ADCs?
And Azir's champions that he "counters" is all of 2 champions, one of which is Ryze, whom they have said openly (along with Azir) that they will leave in a horrible place because they both cause too many problems. And Ryze is on almost all mid laners lists as people they counter.
And that is assuming we go on stats alone. Which I am not even focused on but was providing because of the comments and hilarious downrating because of honesty.
I literally listed how similar their kits are, how hers is explicitly a better kit, with a much, much easier champion to play, and still has a better position in champion rankings than Azir. And that is at top level play, not counting how much better she is at low level play than Azir (who has a million nicknames such as Feed-Chicken because of how common people feed on him). Even Riot made a post about how you can watch Pobelter carry on Azir, go into solo queue and feed for fifty games. In contrast, Tristana is able to hyper-carry when the meta allows and can still be played just fine at low levels. Azir is specifically targeted to become garbage by Riot.
Yet, again, I point to the many similarities in kit and the ways she is outright better and easier.
Snowbrand1 votesGetting downrated because of honesty. :)
Safe, plus hyper-carry potential is actually a problem. Lets do a comparision:
Azir is too broken for the game so they nerf him into oblivion and leave him at the bottom of the cesspool they created for champions they keep messing up. Why though? Because he has a very strong late game with very high team fight damage, a dash, ranged attacks, an ultimate that knocks you back, and very good scaling with a very weak, easily punished early game (especially with the nerfs to range they gave him in 2017.
Tristana has a very strong late game, with very high team fight damage, a dash, ranged attacks, an ultimate that knocks you back, very good scaling and much better turret damage. However, she has more range, more consistent damage, a much, much, much easier kit to be good with and is harder to punish early game (especially with a support to help you out) and is not being nerfed into the ground or considered a problem at all.
The kit is very similar except one is a favorite of someone that matters and the other is good in pro play but is a scaling champion (one that gets ridiculously strong at a slower pace than Tristana if you think about it).
Yea... Well, Kog'maw for example is a hyper carry but have no mobility. Vayne have mobility but not as much and is more punished in lane. Twitch don't have any mobility so the only hyper carry that have mobility is tristana I think. I'm fine with vayne or kog or even twitch, because they are hyper carries that you can escape or lock down if you get to them. Tristana on the other hand is too slippery in my opinion for how strong she gets later into the game.
Syrile1 votesYea... Well, Kog'maw for example is a hyper carry but have no mobility. Vayne have mobility but not as much and is more punished in lane. Twitch don't have any mobility so the only hyper carry that have mobility is tristana I think. I'm fine with vayne or kog or even twitch, because they are hyper carries that you can escape or lock down if you get to them. Tristana on the other hand is too slippery in my opinion for how strong she gets later into the game.
Exactly. Aaaaaand the CC knockback of her ultimate. She is not only safe but super safe and insanely powerful at late game. Zero true weakness. This means Riot will likely buff her a ton soon with her new trend?
Snowbrand1 votesExactly. Aaaaaand the CC knockback of her ultimate. She is not only safe but super safe and insanely powerful at late game. Zero true weakness. This means Riot will likely buff her a ton soon with her new trend?
Yea, I don't mind her to have some kind of self-peel like her ult because others like twitch or even kog have some kind of that. But togheter with her jump it's hard to get at her at all. She should get a warwick kind of update I think. Either keep the jump and ult but take away her hyper carry potential or make her less hyper-carryish style. Because the jump reset is cool, but just not that cool on a hypercarry adc like the way she is atm. That's just how I feel about her
Syrile1 votesYea, I don't mind her to have some kind of self-peel like her ult because others like twitch or even kog have some kind of that. But togheter with her jump it's hard to get at her at all. She should get a warwick kind of update I think. Either keep the jump and ult but take away her hyper carry potential or make her less hyper-carryish style. Because the jump reset is cool, but just not that cool on a hypercarry adc like the way she is atm. That's just how I feel about her
Exactly. Her kit is overloaded and has been for too long. Varus has a Root but it is an ultimate and is a skill shot. He also has no dashes. Caitlyn has a crappy root that is super easy to not get hit by unless you are CC'd and she has a very weak dash but neither are strong enough to really do anything alone. They are more about alternate ways of doing damage.
No other champion (that has not been gutted) has that type of potential (except for the new updated champions that all have too much mobility and loaded kits).
ZephyrDrake3 votesExactly. Her kit is overloaded and has been for too long. Varus has a Root but it is an ultimate and is a skill shot. He also has no dashes. Caitlyn has a crappy root that is super easy to not get hit by unless you are CC'd and she has a very weak dash but neither are strong enough to really do anything alone. They are more about alternate ways of doing damage.
No other champion (that has not been gutted) has that type of potential (except for the new updated champions that all have too much mobility and loaded kits).
and yet Varus and Cait are better than Tristana at all stages of the game except for the late game...
Syrile1 votesand yet Varus and Cait are better than Tristana at all stages of the game except for the late game...
There have been many, many things pointed out wrong. Stating champions are stronger does not mean much. Currently, Lucian is stronger than her. There was an very, very long time that she was picked almost every game. It means nothing if she has counter picks. The kit itself is a problem.
ZephyrDrake2 votesThere have been many, many things pointed out wrong. Stating champions are stronger does not mean much. Currently, Lucian is stronger than her. There was an very, very long time that she was picked almost every game. It means nothing if she has counter picks. The kit itself is a problem.
yeah, there was a time where she was strong and then got nerfed just like there was a time where Lucian was pretty much a troll pick and now he isn't due to buffs. Sorry but Cait and Varus are stronger than Tristana in the early and mid game. Tristana has for the longest time now, had a very weak early and a passable mid game. All Tristana does in the early game is literally farm and jump away the instant someone tries to fight her since she cannot fight back in the vast majority of scenarios. Mid game she can fight back but most everyone would just fight back since they will be either stronger or on equal footing. Late game she finally gets to do stuff but she is far from being the best hyper carry. Tristana has one thing going for her, safety. She is a safe champion, not a strong one but a safe champion. She can get out of many situations but that's about it. You want to "fix" the kit of a champion that currently is mediocre at best? go ahead, just don't come to me when she just comes back insanely stronger and destroying everyone due to how much you would have to give her in order for her to function
Syrile1 votesyeah, there was a time where she was strong and then got nerfed just like there was a time where Lucian was pretty much a troll pick and now he isn't due to buffs. Sorry but Cait and Varus are stronger than Tristana in the early and mid game. Tristana has for the longest time now, had a very weak early and a passable mid game. All Tristana does in the early game is literally farm and jump away the instant someone tries to fight her since she cannot fight back in the vast majority of scenarios. Mid game she can fight back but most everyone would just fight back since they will be either stronger or on equal footing. Late game she finally gets to do stuff but she is far from being the best hyper carry. Tristana has one thing going for her, safety. She is a safe champion, not a strong one but a safe champion. She can get out of many situations but that's about it. You want to "fix" the kit of a champion that currently is mediocre at best? go ahead, just don't come to me when she just comes back insanely stronger and destroying everyone due to how much you would have to give her in order for her to function
It really does not matter who is currently the strongest. The kit, itself, is the problem. The same as they had trouble with Kalista and Ryze and Azir and so on. Except with almost all of the troublesome champions they completely destroy or rework into some abomination. Tristana is a hyper carry with more safety than Ezreal (a champion that is considered too safe already).
ZephyrDrake2 votesIt really does not matter who is currently the strongest. The kit, itself, is the problem. The same as they had trouble with Kalista and Ryze and Azir and so on. Except with almost all of the troublesome champions they completely destroy or rework into some abomination. Tristana is a hyper carry with more safety than Ezreal (a champion that is considered too safe already).
you can say her kit is the problem all you want. That doesn't make it any more true. Ezreal is also better than Trist at every stage of the game except the late game and that depends on the build that Ez goes
Syrile1 votesyou can say her kit is the problem all you want. That doesn't make it any more true. Ezreal is also better than Trist at every stage of the game except the late game and that depends on the build that Ez goes
And you saying it is not a problem does not make it true either. The difference is, I have provided actual reasons the kit is a problem including actual comparisons to champions that are almost identical in idea and considered too strong. All you have said is that there are champions with higher win rates or that do better in early game.
ZephyrDrake1 votesAnd you saying it is not a problem does not make it true either. The difference is, I have provided actual reasons the kit is a problem including actual comparisons to champions that are almost identical in idea and considered too strong. All you have said is that there are champions with higher win rates or that do better in early game.
they do better in both early and mid games. But whatever you can keep complaining about Tristana all you want. Doesn't mean anything at all. Plenty of champions are better than her in every single stage of the game and you are mad that a champion can be safe. Kog is better than her in the late game
Syrile1 votesthey do better in both early and mid games. But whatever you can keep complaining about Tristana all you want. Doesn't mean anything at all. Plenty of champions are better than her in every single stage of the game and you are mad that a champion can be safe. Kog is better than her in the late game
And you still do not acknowledge that I have provided very clear examples of what the problems with her kit is. It is not about win rate or who is winning the game more often. There have been times that she was nearly pick/ban required even in pro games. She has a kit that is a serious issue for play from the ground up. At this point it feels you are just repeating that there are champions that do better and not even acknowledging the examples provided or providing any counter to them so I am fine with moving on.
ZephyrDrake1 votesAnd you still do not acknowledge that I have provided very clear examples of what the problems with her kit is. It is not about win rate or who is winning the game more often. There have been times that she was nearly pick/ban required even in pro games. She has a kit that is a serious issue for play from the ground up. At this point it feels you are just repeating that there are champions that do better and not even acknowledging the examples provided or providing any counter to them so I am fine with moving on.
you do know that at a time Olaf was a top tier pick in pro play so... are you going to tell me Olaf has issues as well? plenty of champions become pick or ban in pro play means very little just like you love saying. Seems to me you just have an issue with Tristana being safe and nothing more
Syrile1 votesyou do know that at a time Olaf was a top tier pick in pro play so... are you going to tell me Olaf has issues as well? plenty of champions become pick or ban in pro play means very little just like you love saying. Seems to me you just have an issue with Tristana being safe and nothing more
Notice how you ignored that I specified "even in pro play." It was happening in solo queue as well. High pick rate, high ban rate, high win rate. And I notice, yet again, that you ignore all of the reasons posted to talk about Olaf that has no similarities to this at all. His kit has a clear start-to-finish period that he can be punished and he cannot hyper carry.
ZephyrDrake1 votesNotice how you ignored that I specified "even in pro play." It was happening in solo queue as well. High pick rate, high ban rate, high win rate. And I notice, yet again, that you ignore all of the reasons posted to talk about Olaf that has no similarities to this at all. His kit has a clear start-to-finish period that he can be punished and he cannot hyper carry.
Olaf was also strong in SoloQ the instant ANYTHING is remotely good in pro play everyone in SoloQ copies it. All you have to do is look at MF support. Now are you going to say anything else? You can punish a Tristana, you can force her to fight at times when she isn't ready, you can force objectives at times where she would rather farm up and get her items. You can flank her and have her choose where to escape. You can hate on Tristana's kit all you want doesn't change anything about her
Syrile1 votesOlaf was also strong in SoloQ the instant ANYTHING is remotely good in pro play everyone in SoloQ copies it. All you have to do is look at MF support. Now are you going to say anything else? You can punish a Tristana, you can force her to fight at times when she isn't ready, you can force objectives at times where she would rather farm up and get her items. You can flank her and have her choose where to escape. You can hate on Tristana's kit all you want doesn't change anything about her
Okay, clearly you have no interest in responding to what was actually said so let me try this. Do you know what I mean when I say the kit is the problem and not the power level?
Douglas Funnie2 votesZoe is bad design Pyke is bad design Neeko is bad design Kayn is bad design The new upcoming garbage "unchained" champion is bad design.
Most of all the champions reworks are bad design.
Schenix1 votesTristana is ranged Lee Sin practically.
Crispy0Snake1 votesShe's really good, I liked to play AP malphite into her because you can just cheesewheel her when she goes to cs and she has 0 range or dmg to deal with you early and you can put her behind like that. You can also just ult her late and her jump can't get her out in time
OtterlyLost1 votesShe's not strong at all points of the game. Her early game is honestly atrocious which sucks because her mid game is even worse. She gets bullied really hard early game due to having really awful range and no meaningful ways of trading. Either you go in and murder them or you go in and you die. And if you dont snowball your lane, your lack of any ability damage for poking with means that your midgame in skirmishes just sucks ass because all you have are AAs. AAs that dont do damage yet because you dont have items.
By late game is the only time she's good and that's when she should be good. If she's doing damage late, there shouldn't be a reason for you to complain. Her power trough is deep and rocky enough that if, in this meta, you haven't finished the game out before she hits your stride, that's on you. Or you opened up a soup kitchen in laning phase and just force fed her the entirety of it. Either way, both are your fault.
People need to figure out that just because a champion is safe doesn't mean they are good. If it did, then ezreal is a much worse case of a champion who is "good" at all stages of the game. His mobility is a blink and its CD is reduced just for him landing his abilities. He literally fits with any meta and any support and any playstyle; wanna just poke? Can do. Wanna just farm? Also viable. Wanna go ham and all in? Got that covered too. And now, with his rework, he can also siege. Dude doesnt fall off, has one of the highest damage numbers per game for an ADC, and has a very safe early game, extremely good mid game, and a decent late game.
But yes, Tristana with long CDs, no means of poking, expensive build path, extremely weak early and mid game, and limited means of interacting with her laner in lane is the worst thing on the planet.
Snowbrand1 votesShe's not strong at all points of the game. Her early game is honestly atrocious which sucks because her mid game is even worse. She gets bullied really hard early game due to having really awful range and no meaningful ways of trading. Either you go in and murder them or you go in and you die. And if you dont snowball your lane, your lack of any ability damage for poking with means that your midgame in skirmishes just sucks ass because all you have are AAs. AAs that dont do damage yet because you dont have items.
By late game is the only time she's good and that's when she should be good. If she's doing damage late, there shouldn't be a reason for you to complain. Her power trough is deep and rocky enough that if, in this meta, you haven't finished the game out before she hits your stride, that's on you. Or you opened up a soup kitchen in laning phase and just force fed her the entirety of it. Either way, both are your fault.
People need to figure out that just because a champion is safe doesn't mean they are good. If it did, then ezreal is a much worse case of a champion who is "good" at all stages of the game. His mobility is a blink and its CD is reduced just for him landing his abilities. He literally fits with any meta and any support and any playstyle; wanna just poke? Can do. Wanna just farm? Also viable. Wanna go ham and all in? Got that covered too. And now, with his rework, he can also siege. Dude doesnt fall off, has one of the highest damage numbers per game for an ADC, and has a very safe early game, extremely good mid game, and a decent late game.
But yes, Tristana with long CDs, no means of poking, expensive build path, extremely weak early and mid game, and limited means of interacting with her laner in lane is the worst thing on the planet.
Ezreal isn't a hyper carry like twitch or kog or vayne tho? Isn't mobility like Tristanas on a hyper carry a design problem tho? Well, maybe if they scaled the jump range early to late, but it's still a weird design choice considering she is a hyper carry
Syrile1 votesEzreal isn't a hyper carry like twitch or kog or vayne tho? Isn't mobility like Tristanas on a hyper carry a design problem tho? Well, maybe if they scaled the jump range early to late, but it's still a weird design choice considering she is a hyper carry
Agreed. Ezreal can be a hard carry but he is not a true hyper carry.
OtterlyLost1 votesIt's a 22 second, max last ability. No, it's not a problem at all. It's more degenerate to have a champ like Ez or Lucian wha can max their mobility spells second, can spec into bruiser items, can also get absurd amounts of CDR from both items and their kits and can equally carry just as hard or harder than Tristana can at nearly every point in the game. Or what about Vayne who no longer even has a CD on her tumble late game because she's gonna ult murder your ass and who is a hyper carry and has more toxic things in her kit like %health true damage and a huge AD steroid.
Of problematic champions, Tristana should be low on anyone's list. Long CDs, no ability to get CDR except from resets, poor early to mid, one of the weakest late game hyper carries in terms of actual damage out put, no poking or sieging or trading capabilities and her jump is, again, 22 seconds long.
AngeIo1 votesdid you guys get rekt in silver to agree on this? Tristana is just safe. She's nowehere near to broken early/mid game. She was so bad lately that they even buffed her. where did you get this opinion from? did you have a bad game against a tristana who got fed? jesus.
WøOxer2 votesdid you guys get rekt in silver to agree on this? Tristana is just safe. She's nowehere near to broken early/mid game. She was so bad lately that they even buffed her. where did you get this opinion from? did you have a bad game against a tristana who got fed? jesus.
Pretty much this.
She isn't broken she just have strong late game.
Snowbrand1 votesdid you guys get rekt in silver to agree on this? Tristana is just safe. She's nowehere near to broken early/mid game. She was so bad lately that they even buffed her. where did you get this opinion from? did you have a bad game against a tristana who got fed? jesus.
But would a jump on twitch or kogmaw be fair? Her kit is just overloaded that way