Riot should just nerf everything solely based on what is currently meta in pro play

i cant move wtf·Sep 16, 2017·2 votes·408 views

Pro teams get to play and study this game full time and so they've done the number crunching and have usually found what's the strongest in a given patch. This should make it easy for the balance team to always know what they need to nerf. It would make pro play way more interesting too since they'll have to spend much more time theory-crafting to find what's best for every patch. They're paid to play this game, it's the least they can do for our entertainment and the game's health/balance.

19 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerSep 16, 20171 votes

They don't always play what's strongest. Pro play has a much different meta than standard skill levels, even high elo can be pretty different due to the fact of structured premade teams

i cant move wtfSep 16, 20171 votes

If they make a pick that's not the strongest then it wouldn't be meta (i.e. spammed or pick-or-banned) and wouldn't be nerfed, right?

ZephyrDrakeSep 16, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kkMRLpdt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-16T14:38:48.852+0000)

If they make a pick that's not the strongest then it wouldn't be meta (i.e. spammed or pick-or-banned) and wouldn't be nerfed, right?

you seem to have a huge misunderstanding on what is that the pro teams play. More often than not they pick whatever is the safest choice vs what is strongest if they get a choice. They are also able to pick certain champions because there is something that they have that we don't which is team coordination. They are able to communicate with each other and trust each other. They know how to play the game so they know how what they need to give up, what they need to contest. What is strong in pro play might be incredibly weak in normal play. Just look at Ryze, lowest winrate possible but pro teams could make use of him very effectively so what would nerfing Ryze accomplish other than kick him out of pro play? then you have the many, many champions in SoloQ that just terrorize everyone but don't see play at all in pro play. What then? have riot ignore them just because they are not being played in pro play?

i cant move wtfSep 16, 20171 votes

Really? I don't think I saw a ryze more than once this season. When was this "ryze spam"? I must have missed it.

I saw a lot of maokai and cho'gath though. Hmm. I wonder if they were more meta than ryze in pro play this season? Guess we'll never know huh?

ZephyrDrakeSep 16, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kkMRLpdt,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-16T14:51:33.620+0000)

Really? I don't think I saw a ryze more than once this season. When was this "ryze spam"? I must have missed it.

I saw a lot of maokai and cho'gath though. Hmm. I wonder if they were more meta than ryze in pro play this season? Guess we'll never know huh?

i am not talking this season i am talking Ryze in general he has always had one of the lowest winrates of any champion and still gets picked in pro play quite frequently. Whereas there are champions with insane winrates in regular play that are never touched in pro play. What is strong in SoloQ doesn't mean it's going to be strong in pro play and vice-versa. Are there some cases where some champion is strong in both? yes but there are plenty that also show that is not the case either

chipndip1Sep 16, 20172 votes

No, right now, Ryze is just shit, and has been shit for a long time. Your example is bad. Actually, the foundation of your whole argument is bad.

ModWulf HelhammerSep 16, 20171 votes

Ryze is bad right now * because* of how strong he was in pro play. They had to gut his numbers like they did Azir or else he was overbearing in pro play.

chipndip1Sep 16, 20171 votes

Well we know THAT. The op is talking as if he's talking about a more "current" Ryze, though. That's what I'm commenting on.

Also, pros don't play just what's "safest" or "strongest". It's a combination of the two. If they played just what's "safest", they wouldn't play Rakan and they'd ALWAYS play Trist. It's a careful balancing act that ultimately sums up to "Most gains for least risk".

Ultimately, you COULD just balance the whole game around pro play, but solo queue doesn't have that coordination to pull it off without alienating lower elo players. Also, some champ kits are so ridiculously binary that if they were even half-decent in pro play, they'd be legitimately broken in solo queue. Those are the main reasons why they don't.

ZephyrDrakeSep 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, right now, Ryze is just shit, and has been shit for a long time. Your example is bad. Actually, the foundation of your whole argument is bad.

my example is bad? look at the last season or two and tell me that ryze and watch pro play and tell me that again. Guess what? he still has a terrible winrate in regular play those seasons!

chipndip1Sep 16, 20171 votes

You're talking as if Ryze is good right now. No, right now he's legitimately shit tier and he's slated to be worked on yet again, although it's a smaller scale tune up this time.

To boot, pros don't just play the safest option. They play the safest option for the most gain. That latter stipulation changes the pool of champs they use. Avoiding risk means nothing if your champ isn't that useful, takes too long to be useful, gets outclassed by someone else that does your job, or becomes useless too soon.

i cant move wtfSep 16, 20171 votes

So you think there's no connection between what champions have the highest pick/ban rates in pro play and the champions that are objectively the strongest in the game?

ZephyrDrakeSep 16, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kkMRLpdt,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-16T15:04:13.774+0000)

So you think there's no connection between what champions have the highest pick/ban rates in pro play and the champions that are objectively the strongest in the game?

not really, like i said, there are plenty of champions that are never picked in pro play but they terrorize regular play like nothing. There are champions in normal play that barely do much of anything but they still get picked in pro play constantly. Just like there are some that are strong in both. Focusing balanced around just pro play just means that whenever a champion starts terrorizing SoloQ but never gets picked in pro play it would never be addressed. That is why Riot looks at all parts before deciding on how to buff and nerf a champion. High Elo, Low Elo, Pro play, Champions are stronger and weaker to various degrees in each of them. You cannot buff something that is strong in Low Elo just because it's weak in pro play, it'll create so many issues. Just like nerfing something that strong in pro play but weak everywhere else can cause very similar issues

i cant move wtfSep 16, 20171 votes

Name one champion that gets regularly played in pro play but not in solo q. (show me actual percentages)

ZephyrDrakeSep 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kkMRLpdt,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-16T15:18:53.360+0000)

Name one champion that gets regularly played in pro play but not in solo q. (show me actual percentages)

every champion gets played to some degree in SoloQ name me some champions that is strong in SoloQ but never see pro play at all. Is what you should be asking and like i said Ryze is a weak champion in SoloQ but he still gets picked in Pro Play, this is the only season where he has taken a backseat because Riot literally destroyed every single aspect of his kit just so they can get him away from pro play even though he was not an issue in SoloQ at all. You want the game to literally devolve the game into nothingness because of pro play be my guest, i will be waiting with popcorn as the game self destructs and implodes

i cant move wtfSep 16, 20171 votes

Okay, so you have all these arguments that pros aren't picking based on what's strongest but it's all based on your belief that "pro play is unaffected by champion stats" and won't provide even one example, backed up by statistics, that shows a champion that's regularly played in pro play but not in solo q.

ModWulf HelhammerSep 16, 20171 votes

Cassiopeia. 4% pickrate on live servers, has a 40% presence (picks and bans) in just NA LCS spring.

i cant move wtfSep 16, 20171 votes

Is that a 4% pickrate in masters and above or for all of solo q? Because a champion like Cassiopeia has a high skill floor and only dedicated players will unlock her actual strength.

ModWulf HelhammerSep 16, 20171 votes

Diamond+ knocks that up only 2% to 6. Platinum+ barely reaches 5%

i cant move wtfSep 16, 20171 votes

I see your point then that the relatively small pool size limited only to pro play would make some champions have disproportionate play in pro play. I revise my idea to include the average between pro play pick/ban rates and those of masters and above in each region.