The Elder Dragon doesn't feel like a "Boss Battle"

TheThundersRoar·May 23, 2016·106 votes·13,451 views

I mean, it can be solo'd rather easily, since it does no damage. It has no special moves, like Baron. I remember when you implemented the new SR, you made sure Baron felt like a boss.

It does almost no damage, which makes it hard for teams to engage on whoever is doing it, unlike Baron, which chunks and shreds everything in sight.

But even then, Elder is too tanky to be fun to fight. With a full team, it takes forever to do it. I've been in a game where the two teams decided to trade Baron for Elder, but the Elder team took so long that the Baron team actually had time to finish Baron and run all the way down to pick a couple people off as they were finishing it. That's how long it takes.

For a buff that impactful, it doesn't feel "Boss" enough.

49 Comments

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 201639 votes

When working on the new dragons we decided the best fit for Elder Dragon was a longer fight than the previous dragons, but a similar level of damage output.

The high HP's there because we didn't want it to be something that just got solo'd while the rest of the team kept their opponents busy or for teams to be able to burn it down so quickly they couldn't be responded to. It's a powerful, often game ending ,buff that should be able to be contested.

It's also a buff that's fairly dependent on acquiring previous buffs though (investment strat), so taking it shouldn't be as risky a prospect as trying to take baron where all the cost's concentrated around the actual baron fight. Similarly there's already a risky, dangerous to take but maybe we can pull it off and get back in the game encounter in baron and we didn't want to double down on that experience. Elder Dragon's instead intended to create 'we can start this safely, and then fight you if you come' situations.

rtbf225618241May 23, 20163 votes

For something that's huge as hell and has so much health it still does no damage nor has any special abilities.

I'd just remove some health and trade it for abilities that do damage but can be avoided, similarily to Baron's abilities.

JMoormannMay 23, 20167 votes

He has already posted about this somewhere:

When working on the new dragons we decided the best fit for Elder Dragon was a longer fight than the previous dragons, but a similar level of damage output.

The high HP's there because we didn't want it to be something that just got solo'd while the rest of the team kept their opponents busy or for teams to be able to burn it down so quickly they couldn't be responded to. It's a powerful, often game ending ,buff that should be able to be contested.

It's also a buff that's fairly dependent on acquiring previous buffs though (investment strat), so taking it shouldn't be as risky a prospect as trying to take baron where all the cost's concentrated around the actual baron fight. Similarly there's already a risky, dangerous to take but maybe we can pull it off and get back in the game encounter in baron and we didn't want to double down on that experience. Elder Dragon's instead intended to create 'we can start this safely, and then fight you if you come' situations.

Photos of GhostsMay 23, 20163 votes

"Somewhere" plahs

rtbf225618241May 24, 20161 votes

That's what i replied to. What's your point? Elder Dragon is just a longer fight, with nothing special other than the increased size of the dragon itself. Not that that does anything.

chipndip1May 23, 201618 votes

{quoted}

When working on the new dragons we decided the best fit for Elder Dragon was a longer fight than the previous dragons, but a similar level of damage output.

The high HP's there because we didn't want it to be something that just got solo'd while the rest of the team kept their opponents busy or for teams to be able to burn it down so quickly they couldn't be responded to. It's a powerful, often game ending ,buff that should be able to be contested.

It's also a buff that's fairly dependent on acquiring previous buffs though (investment strat), so taking it shouldn't be as risky a prospect as trying to take baron where all the cost's concentrated around the actual baron fight. Similarly there's already a risky, dangerous to take but maybe we can pull it off and get back in the game encounter in baron and we didn't want to double down on that experience. Elder Dragon's instead intended to create 'we can start this safely, and then fight you if you come' situations.

So basically:

You invest in dragons.
You bet chips on Baron.

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 201625 votes

That's the intent yup.

Sneakyy XDMay 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When working on the new dragons we decided the best fit for Elder Dragon was a longer fight than the previous dragons, but a similar level of damage output.

The high HP's there because we didn't want it to be something that just got solo'd while the rest of the team kept their opponents busy or for teams to be able to burn it down so quickly they couldn't be responded to. It's a powerful, often game ending ,buff that should be able to be contested.

It's also a buff that's fairly dependent on acquiring previous buffs though (investment strat), so taking it shouldn't be as risky a prospect as trying to take baron where all the cost's concentrated around the actual baron fight. Similarly there's already a risky, dangerous to take but maybe we can pull it off and get back in the game encounter in baron and we didn't want to double down on that experience. Elder Dragon's instead intended to create 'we can start this safely, and then fight you if you come' situations.

While only tangentially related, are you guys ever going to buff Baron? He's

SlashStrikerMay 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When working on the new dragons we decided the best fit for Elder Dragon was a longer fight than the previous dragons, but a similar level of damage output.

The high HP's there because we didn't want it to be something that just got solo'd while the rest of the team kept their opponents busy or for teams to be able to burn it down so quickly they couldn't be responded to. It's a powerful, often game ending ,buff that should be able to be contested.

It's also a buff that's fairly dependent on acquiring previous buffs though (investment strat), so taking it shouldn't be as risky a prospect as trying to take baron where all the cost's concentrated around the actual baron fight. Similarly there's already a risky, dangerous to take but maybe we can pull it off and get back in the game encounter in baron and we didn't want to double down on that experience. Elder Dragon's instead intended to create 'we can start this safely, and then fight you if you come' situations.

the only one who should solo a dragon is suppose to be the jungler.

My Waifu VanillaMay 24, 20161 votes

The buff is strong and all and I understand the reasoning behind all of the dragon's stats. What I don't understand is why does it respawn every 10 minutes? I agree that the regular dragon respawn would be a big short, but for being so contingent on doing well in the game to begin with (having at least 2 dragon buffs to be even really worth taking outside of simple denial) 10 minutes seems extreme and doesn't line up with any other buff outside of "every other blue/red buff". At least mini dragons and Baron are 1 minute apart so chances are that both will be up at the same time making a trade be a potential option, but with Baron and Elder being 3 minutes apart from each other that is rarely ever going to be the case in a longer game and you only really get one shot at the buff anyway. I would simply just put it down to 8 minutes to keep the potential trade available and make the dragon buff see a chance at a second take (instead of at the earliest 45 minutes).

Surr20plzMay 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When working on the new dragons we decided the best fit for Elder Dragon was a longer fight than the previous dragons, but a similar level of damage output.

The high HP's there because we didn't want it to be something that just got solo'd while the rest of the team kept their opponents busy or for teams to be able to burn it down so quickly they couldn't be responded to. It's a powerful, often game ending ,buff that should be able to be contested.

It's also a buff that's fairly dependent on acquiring previous buffs though (investment strat), so taking it shouldn't be as risky a prospect as trying to take baron where all the cost's concentrated around the actual baron fight. Similarly there's already a risky, dangerous to take but maybe we can pull it off and get back in the game encounter in baron and we didn't want to double down on that experience. Elder Dragon's instead intended to create 'we can start this safely, and then fight you if you come' situations.

That's kind of boring though. I wanna see some crazy boss battle mechanics!

RubenatorXMay 26, 20161 votes

Just.. feels bad when you can't sneak a lots of health elder dragon from that early game team comp that used their comp to get un-contestable dragon control and then use it to amplify their early game power and cover up their late game weakness. And you tend to not be able to do elder dragon because they keep their snowball going and can contest the fight unless you happen to have a late game hyper carry.

LadyRenlyMay 23, 201624 votes

the idea of a boss battle is meaningless, it basically boils down to a noodle fight and hope the enemy doesn't notice while you keep lifestealing through it

TheThundersRoarMay 23, 201617 votes

Yeah, I agree that in the overall PvP, it's just a thing you sneak/pick up after an ace.

But still, it does no damage and takes no damage. It's hard to engage on the team doing it, it doesn't feel very fun to fight it. They changed Baron because of that, so doesn't Elder deserve to be a fun, powerful boss too?

Bud LightMay 23, 20165 votes

how is baron fun? elder gives you a ton of true damage and it takes long to kill so you cant just rush it in 3 seconds... its meant to bring in a team fight just like the old 5th dragon would and help the game end faster. Just instead of having to stack 5 dragons or get some stolen and wait an hour for 5 it spawns at a decent time

kile147May 23, 20164 votes

It's not about the buff that they give it's the fight itself. He's suggesting that the Elder Dragon isn't a fun fight because it deals no damage and is basically just a massive health sponge. Giving it at least one "special move" could make it a more interactive and rewarding fight.

For example having the dragon fly at groups of champs and breathe fire onto the ground, which would be a dodgeable move that would deal both up front and DoT as you stand in the burned path, or have it pin (suppress) the champion it is targeting and force his allies to save him which could be done by applying cc or a certain amount of damage to the dragon. Even if it was a simple as having the dragon move around a bit (aside from just chasing its target) it would do to make the fight more unique and interesting.

My Waifu VanillaMay 24, 20161 votes

Agreed. Right now technically any ADC with a Bloodthirster or Fiddlesticks/WW can just solo the thing in a minute or so and leave unscathed. It simply just doesn't do anything and is just a wall of health and the earlier drags that slow AS/MS are easier to contest.

9 inches of loveMay 23, 20161 votes

it is because riot listened to people like you that this game became shit

QuephaMay 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

the idea of a boss battle is meaningless, it basically boils down to a noodle fight and hope the enemy doesn't notice while you keep lifestealing through it

Not really, Dragon is arguably a better objective (especially outside of pro games) because it provides a ton more combat stats even before considering the buff to the rest of your dragon stacks. Taking it should therefore be at least as much of a risk as Baron.

The boss fight-ey feeling of Baron can level the playing field for a team that's behind as the leading team challenging Baron has to spread their focus between the actions of Baron and the enemy as well as taking more AoE damage. Why go through all that nonsense when you can just do an Elder dragon, turn him away from your team, pull him out of the pit wherever is convenient for you without losing progress, and get a buff that makes it easier to win team fights and is arguably just as effective at taking objectives?

Surfer AsheMay 23, 201612 votes

It"s not supposed to be. The tankiness is so you can make a decison to go for dragon or end the game because it takes so long to kill, the dead enemy team will have a slight chance at redemption

The Baron "boss fight" is pointless except made to be difficult to solo. It's so trivial when you have a full team there and take little damage anyways because you can baron and storm the the nexus in one sweep.

Elder dragon's purpose is not itself being a "fight" but an enabler for a teamfight to bred out. What's the point winning a team fight but realizing you're too low to deal with a dragon with wonky "boss fight" mechanics for the sake of it.

Tis a nice dayMay 23, 20161 votes

This guy has the right idea. Elder dragon's supposed to initiate teamfights, not be the fight itself.

ArakadiaMay 23, 20161 votes

He means it looks cool and feels cool I think. So like Elder dragon could do a rumble Q at times and fly up only to slam down at other times.

BeeCuzMay 23, 20167 votes

The dragon is much better than a boss fight.

Usually several players die trying to win a dragon. Lots of times summoners will specifically ignore or excuse deaths and just go charging in again and again.

Good dragon fights require dealing with the defenders first.

http://s33.postimg.org/rq44kza6n/dragon.jpg

Hella KaiserMay 23, 20167 votes

it is in the right hands Mordekaiser

Jonius7May 23, 20165 votes

I dunno, but I've found fighting Elder Dragon to be quite funny. Due to its huge shape and animations, it's like massaging a big fat ass Dragon that has eaten too much XD.

One time we had pushed all enemy inhibitors in but 3 team members tried to rush the nexus and died. Since there was nothing else to do, Blitz and I (Xin Zhao) just went to it and took it down. It took an awful long ass time and we were enjoying the scenery and the enemy team trying to push out the super minions, but it did give us something to do while we waited for our team to spawn.

KidKaiserMay 23, 20162 votes

what were the teams composed of? cuz apparently Kindred (jung) Vayne (adc) Azir (mid) will shred baron/elder faster than Nidalee (jung) Ezreal (adc) Fizz (mid)

im excluding top and support mainly do to top being a tank which just soaks up baron/elder damage and the support being utility which basically just sits on the outside protecting everyone else from the enemy team.

they both fall at about the same rate. with the elder giving a huge boost to teamfight power, while baron does so for push power.

alfavhunterMay 24, 20162 votes

The only thing they need to add to elder dragon is make it breath fire in an arch in front of it that does % max hp damage to enemies BUT is easy to dodge, the point of this is to make it so you can't just zone out while fighting. It if you have the stats

The fire should do a stacking debuff that deals 2/4/6/8/19/12/exc max hp damage, but you can walk out of it

Think a Morgana pool in the shape of a Diana Q that is put out in an arch in front of dragon instead of originating from dragon

Example. X is whoever is tanking dragon, () represent the area of fire, this forces some movement in those taking elder dragon but shouldn't be often enough to be deadly if paying attention

-------------------()) Dragon>-----(X) -------------------())

LimrickMay 24, 20162 votes

I think all the dragons should get some kind of special move. Maybe a huge AoE explosion for the Fire, a ground (like Cassiopeia ) for the Mountain, a knock up whirlwind for Cloud, and a snare maybe for Ocean (like an ice move). Then have Elder use the abilities from the previous drakes that have spawned. For instance, if you've killed a Fire and a Mountain, give Elder the Ground and Explode abilities. Just a suggestion, they could even be super weak abilities, but just make the theme really hit home. Any thoughts?

FeathermaneMay 23, 20161 votes

Grievous wounds from Epic monsters should be number one on the list.

CoochieCatcher69May 23, 20161 votes

I can link you to a video of a game I had where elder dragon was a very big fight that was highly contested. Every objective in our game was a major turning point and it really felt competitive.

Hello I am BirdMay 23, 20161 votes

Even Cloud drake...

CoochieCatcher69May 23, 20161 votes

The Rng in our game was really good so a cloud drag didnt spawn if i recall correctly

Hello I am BirdMay 23, 20161 votes

Neat.

The Mighty SpankMay 23, 20161 votes

Here's a better observation... Literally none of the objective mobs feel like a threat and the only reason Baron is a threat is because there may be a swooping gank coming for ya booty.

Spacesuit SpiffMay 23, 20161 votes

It should have special moves based on the previous dragon types. Maybe casting them in the order of previous dragon types. Make them impactful enough that theres reason to track and run from these.

Bobloser3555May 23, 20161 votes

Yes I think he should also fly around a bit grab someone and throw him on the ground for extra damage.

ValyrianBladeMay 23, 20161 votes

I think the problem with a boss doing too much damage is that it makes it too risky to pursue fighting it. If the enemy team is good at defending towers, you need SOMETHING to let you break through. Starting Baron/Elder is a good way to force a fight, but if it does too much damage they can just wait a bit and then engage with an advantage.

Now, making it deal a lot of damage if fewer people are there could work? So your team can start it as 4 or 5 and start that fight, but you can't really do it with 3 or fewer.

ArthimetesMay 23, 20161 votes

What if it got a tail swipe that hit everyone behind the dragon for 300 + 15% max hp

DefNotABotMay 23, 20161 votes

I'd like to see elder dragon implement CC moves using every element. Maybe small earth walls like taliyah's ult/anivia's wall to separate teammates and force them into disadvantageous spots. Water blasts to slow movement like the water dragon. Maybe knock ups with janna-like tornados. And possibly brand pillars to burn % max hp. It would certainly force teams to coordinate and kite around and try to take the best position possible during a contest while avoiding being caught out. But that's just my idea

Tobias BracknerMay 23, 20161 votes

Eh I like it. It does good enough dmg that you want tanks to tank it and it does look big and spoopy.

I don't feel that drag buff is as strong as Baron so I don't mind it bein an easier fight.

DarkRitualMay 23, 20162 votes

The strength of the buff is directly proportional to which elemental dragons you have. Teamcomp also matters. Team with Veigar that's fed and has three fire drags will value the Elder a lot more than a skirmish team with an earth, fire, and water drag already.

Tobias BracknerMay 23, 20161 votes

Yeah, I feel that ties into the idea of "not as strong as Baron" because getting it is so situational.

At the end of the day it's a big scary dragon with lots of health and good dmg, that feels like a boss battle to me.

CattimanMay 23, 20161 votes

TheThundersRoar's right. It's just no fun when you only have to attack him. It would be much cooler if they implanted special moves at Elder, so Baron and him would be "Bosses", as you say, making the whole map a lot cooler, and exciting. Plus, as Baron spawns before Elder they should make him more powerful than Baron, don't you think?

Flop DoggoMay 23, 20161 votes

Then again, the buff is literally useless if you don't have any drags, and basically useless if all you have is one cloud drake

CattimanMay 24, 20161 votes

Elder does not only empower your buffs, but give you AD and AP. Plus, it will prevent your enemies to get it if they have any buffs.

Critmaster GarenMay 23, 20161 votes

its even worse. its becoming the new baron throw.

people try to contest it, when they have fucking cloud and the nerfed ocean drake. every drake buff but fire drake is worth shit since this patch and not even worth contesting over regular objectives, or baron.

i really dont see the appeal in the other 3, unless you have very specialized teamcomps. and even with those teamcomps you need to hope that the right combination dragons spawn.

in most games, the new dragons will be kinda irrelevant, but youll still have people go for it like theyre made of cotton candy.

Tentacle LoveMay 23, 20161 votes

They should make it pounce on players like a cat, stunning them while it prepares to rear back and bat them a few times. But then I really just want to see a boss with an animation like that.

CobaltGlowMay 26, 20161 votes

Boss battle, eh? What if it were able to cast abilities related to the other dragons? Pillars of fire that damage you over time, walls of rock that block players and projectiles, gales of wind that knock you up, and waves of water that drag you back? It sounds insane and would be full of particles, but it would be a hell of a fight.