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On the Topic of Annie's Q Mana Refund

Crysi102··11 votes·1,654 views

Recently playing against Annie mid has been highly annoying... Now I'm not going to say she's broken, or too bursty, or needs damage reduction or anything, and I'm not posting this because I'm mad or anything. It isn't a matter of "she stomped me in lane, and now I'm posting an angry post about it in the fourms." This is more of an issue I'm feeling sort of passionate about and I wanted to see if anyone else feels the same way.

Right now, when Annie kills a unit with Q, she gets almost all of the mana back. It's also on a ridiculously short CD. As I'm standing in lane, she's spamming targeted mini nukes at half health minions and losing no mana for it. Her Q is basically her auto attack, and there's no downside to it. She's charging her stun, if she times it right she gets mana back, and if she feels like it, she can turn her stun onto her opponent for no extra cost... It's highly oppressive to play against, as you know there isn't really much you can do about it, and she can always choose to just R all over your face.

I feel like there would be two things that would make me feel better playing against this... One, if Annie only got 50% or so mana back when killing units with a Q. As it is now, she really doesn't have to worry about mana costs, and that's pretty annoying as a mid playing against her. The other thing would be to make her Q a skillshot. I'm a bit iffy on that one, but when you think about what they did with Viegar and Ryze's Qs, then it would make at least a bit of sense.

I don't know, I just felt the need to post this and see what other people think. I think making Annie have to THINK about her mana costs would add more opportunity for counterplay, and make her a bit less oppressive to play against.

What do others think about this?

10 Comments

1000angrybees5 votes

i love annie. I really do. But I mean, come on. Look at her.

-Easy last hits. -Pushes lane easily. -Can use mana to harass you while not wasting any on farm. -All abilities charge her passive, so farming charges her passive with zero cost.

Why should she be so easy to farm with and get so many benefits out of it? Just because she's a recommended champ?

Crysi1021 votes

Exactly my thoughts.

Ionian4 votes

Honestly just add a delay to her R and she's instantly balanced.

Crysi1021 votes

As much as that may help, I think that goes against the idea of keeping a Champion's strengths in mind. Annie's whole deal is pulling off that perfect flash into five man Tibbers, so the delay would have to be minimal at best. In my experience, Riot has always tried to bring out a Champion's main playstyle while giving them weaknesses to show counterplay.

Instead of nerfing her major ability (Tibbers (R)), I think nerfing her other spells (or in this case, hidden mana refunds) would help to show her weaknesses while not taking away from her strengths. Making Q cost mana by reducing her mana refund or eliminating it altogether would weaken her laning phase considerably. This would give her enemies chances to fight where Annie is low on mana and may not be able to summon Tibbers if she had been mindlessly Q farming like I described in the post above. Annie's laning phase should BE her weakness, as her obvious strengths lie in assassination/picks and teamfights. Doing anything to help bring her laning in line would help to keep her from being an overly oppressive opponent to play against.

Ionian1 votes

Fun > champion identity. I don't care how iconic an ability is to a certain champion (e.g.: Shadow dance, Undying rage, Summon tibbers, Diplomatic immunity, Feral scream), if it's not a fun mechanic that allows for plays AND counterplays, then it's detrimental to the game's health and must be changed. The fact that Annie's strengths completely rely on a flawed, no counterplay combo only shows how poorly designed the champion is. As Riot will never remove a champion from the game, the closest thing to that they could do would be reworking her passive entirely or just adding a delay to R. You would still have W for instant aoe stuns.

Crysi1021 votes

If she would still have W for the aoe stuns, then what is the point of putting a delay on Tibbers? She could just flash/W/Tibbers instead of flash/Tibbers.

Without adding the delay, you can counterplay Annie in several ways, one of which is spreading out and not allowing her multiple targets to stun. That works now, it's just that not many people think about it. Another way to counterplay Annie as a champion would be to add in her laning weaknesses. If she doesn't have the mana to summon Tibbers in the first place, you don't have to worry about counterplaying it. That's my big point here. Other options to counterplay her passive include QSS and cleanse. (Though there really should be an AP QSS item, in my opinion, but that's a different conversation.)

Flash/Tibbers is not a counterless move either. Yes, it's very fast, quite instantaneous, and exceptionally difficult to avoid, BUT if one is fast enough, they can use their own flash/gap closer to dash away, respond with their own cc, or (as mentioned earlier) not allow Annie multiple targets. The truth of the matter is that Flash has a HUGE cooldown, which means for most of the game, Annie can't use that combo... and when she does, it has to be thought out, or it would be a waste of her only escape move. While it's on cooldown, Annie is vulnerable to more mobile burst mages or carries like Ahri, Lucian, or Veigar for that matter (don't take the examples too seriously, they're just examples).

Point is, there's ways to counterplay the Tibbers, but there's absolutely nothing you can do about Annie's Q refunds. That's why I suggested the fix I put above... There would be far more chances for Annie to be caught in a weakened state if Q didn't refund mana like it does now. Annie players would have to be smarter, and those playing against her would have more openings, all without disrupting her major playmaking style with the flash/stun.

Now, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying putting a delay on Tibbers is a terrible or bad idea, and it definitely WOULD increase conterplay, but it doesn't fix the issue at hand: Annie's all around power. If anything, delaying her R would make her have to initiate with W and then cast Tibbs, and that doesn't actually fix her oppressive laning phase at all. Putting a delay on Tibbs would simply nerf her strengths instead of forming visible weaknesses, something that isn't necessarily required as Annie isn't exceptionally overpowered in this meta (as of right now). So delaying her R does nothing about the major issue here, but it might be worth thinking about.

Catastrop2 votes

I think she's fine as she is. With the rise of more mobile and long range mages, she's suffering.

Crysi1021 votes

People simply forgot that Annie mid exists, after all the Annie support that has been happening. Annie mid actually really hurts mobile mages, with her cc shutting down their ability to be mobile, and she fares pretty well against assassins for the same reason. Long range mages are a slight issue for Annie (honestly which is why I played Orianna when Annie was picked in the first place), but when you can sit back and never lose mana, Annie can just flash/Tibbers and ruin the longer range mages anyway, or farm under tower, never lose her mana, and call for a gank when the enemy long range mage is oom. Since most of those ranged mages are ridiculously squishy or immobile (Orianna, Lux, Xerath all come to mind), Annie's assassination potential really shines in those matchups. When you play RoA Annie, you can survive through those poke/zone based ranged mages easily.

Annie mid shines against more mobile champions that she can lock down, and assassins who can't survive her burst... Going against long range poke or zoning champs should be her weak point (like I mentioned in one of my other replies that I made), but it really isn't a weakness at this point. Yes, she has a tiny bit of trouble laning against someone who's range is longer than hers, but that's basically a pool of 3 or 4 relatively immobile champs that she has no problem killing in one shot. I think some of that poke that she struggles against should be harder for her to survive through... In my experience, Annies have simply sat and farmed, waited until mentioned long range mage is oom, or gets the tiniest bit too close, and then oneshots them post six. Also, Annie's range isn't that bad to begin with, so she doesn't really struggle THAT much against the longer range mages...

I know she's not ridiculously overpowered or anything, but I really do believe that her laning phase specifically needs a bit of nerfing. Right now she's not great, but she's not bad. And she's not bad in any way. She's a safe, bursty, cc heavy, can-be-tanky-if-done-right, control mage that can either be mid or support, excels at controlling/engaging/disengaging teamfights, has high single-target and aoe burst, and has a mana refund that gives her a free way to farm in that solo lane. Out of all of that, her only downside is that she doesn't have as much range as a Lux or Xerath... and MAYBE that her burst falls off a bit later in the game, but she still maintains all of her cc and utility, so that's a fair trade off.

It's more about bringing out her weaknesses and roles to me... If she's meant to be an aoe, cc, control mage, then make her one, and remove some of her laning dominance. If you want her to be a heavy laner, great 1v1 duelist, or a general out-sustainer in a lane, then keep her refunds, but do something to keep her teamfights in line. As Annie fits better into an engage/teamfighter role, I suggest the first option.

Wow, so sorry about that being so long... It was not this long in my head, I swear... >>

CreationFlaw1 votes

I just don't like that she gets refunds when she's not even the hardest champion to farm with

Crysi1022 votes

Yes! Can we talk about early game Talon for a second? >>

I will say, however, that if they removed the mana refund, they would have to reduce the mana cost as well, because her Q DOES cost a considerable amount of mana. Even so, a full mana refund is a bit absurd. It makes her laning phase basically a mindless Q fest and she's always ready for the big teamfight... I replied to someone else saying that if teamfighting is Annie's specialty, then her laning should be her weakness. I truly believe that as well.

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