Kog'Maw and the other AD hyper carries are simply unacceptable

Recon1212·Sep 27, 2017·55 votes·3,124 views

I understand their goal is to do dmg, but when they can sit and not move, no kite nothing, yet can still pump out the dmg to kill tanks and everyone that has less that 2k health in less than a sec, there is something wrong. Not to mention if there is a feed assassin, the role meant to kill the ADC, and they still cant do anything even after using and executing their combo fully. I just played as a Yasuo against a Kog and I consistently ulted him and he would just sit still and aa and i would get shredded. I know I'm only silver gold, but I just don't see where people in my elo, even when fighting as a team can deal with such strong aas.

tldr; ADC Hyper carries are absolutely busted and I have no idea what riot needs to do to fix it...

80 Comments

AvaristSep 27, 201721 votes

Context matters. Was the kog fed? What items did you have? What items did he have? What did your windwall block? Did you fight in a creep wave? Did you miss any Q's?

Kog'maw takes a long time to come online though compared to Yasuo so I get the feeling he killed you with his gold differential. Sometimes gold > skill.

AhrisSep 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Context matters. Was the kog fed? What items did you have? What items did he have? What did your windwall block? Did you fight in a creep wave? Did you miss any Q's?

Kog'maw takes a long time to come online though compared to Yasuo so I get the feeling he killed you with his gold differential. Sometimes gold > skill.

I played kog maw and i did really good damage even when I was behind. Was able to 1v1 a Lux 100-0 while you can say she did not land her full burst. I was 3-14 i believe? With only full item blade if I remember right. That isn't rlly fair especially from 710 range.

AtanchanSep 27, 201713 votes

Over what time?

Lux doesn't really do anything after she uses her burst, so if she missed it, basically anyone who isn't also a burst-focus champion that just missed their burst would be able to 100 - 0 in a 1v1. With Kog having damage steroid built into his kit, this makes even more sensical that a Lux that whiffed her damage wouldn't be able to 1v1 someone who does damage just through clicking on her.

Especially when you considering how the fact that she stayed in range hints at her either trying to out DPS you with her autos, was waaaay closer to you than necessary, or had a seriously movement speed disadvantage like lacking boots. All of these are pretty big mistakes.

AhrisSep 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Over what time?

Lux doesn't really do anything after she uses her burst, so if she missed it, basically anyone who isn't also a burst-focus champion that just missed their burst would be able to 100 - 0 in a 1v1. With Kog having damage steroid built into his kit, this makes even more sensical that a Lux that whiffed her damage wouldn't be able to 1v1 someone who does damage just through clicking on her.

Especially when you considering how the fact that she stayed in range hints at her either trying to out DPS you with her autos, was waaaay closer to you than necessary, or had a seriously movement speed disadvantage like lacking boots. All of these are pretty big mistakes.

In like 4 sec? 710 range is really far so it is unexpecting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed1uJ47yo2A

AtanchanSep 27, 201713 votes

Uh.

You hit her ten times over eight seconds to get that kill. That title is 100% clickbait.

Plus, based off of her damage she would've just flat-out two-shot you if she actually had some confidence and just ulted you before she had faffed around in your threat radius for eight whole seconds. I mean literally the only reason that you didn't die was because she didn't think she could hit a Kog that was running right at her with her Q. Her ult was split seconds away from finishing you off.

AhrisSep 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Uh.

You hit her ten times over eight seconds to get that kill. That title is 100% clickbait.

Plus, based off of her damage she would've just flat-out two-shot you if she actually had some confidence and just ulted you before she had faffed around in your threat radius for eight whole seconds. I mean literally the only reason that you didn't die was because she didn't think she could hit a Kog that was running right at her with her Q. Her ult was split seconds away from finishing you off.

If I played ahri, with full burst I wouldn't of damaged her compared to Kogmaw.

Also Kog is targetted damage. I also did a decent chunk damage to tanks because of how broken Kog W is.

AtanchanSep 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If I played ahri, with full burst I wouldn't of damaged her compared to Kogmaw.

You wouldn't even need to full burst her, though, that's the thing - both your Orb and your Fox Fire would be back up over that time, which should let you 100-0 her with the amount of AP you'd get from the same gold value of items.

AhrisSep 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You wouldn't even need to full burst her, though, that's the thing - both your Orb and your Fox Fire would be back up over that time, which should let you 100-0 her with the amount of AP you'd get from the same gold value of items.

So ur saying, with just morello and being 2/11, I can still burst squishies 1v1?

AtanchanSep 28, 20172 votes

I literally said your burst wouldn't be enough, but your overall damage output in that time ( aka 1.5 spell rotations ) would be.

Because, as it happens, actually dealing your damage is important to make your score lead important, which the Lux absolutely didn't.

AhrisSep 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I literally said your burst wouldn't be enough, but your overall damage output in that time ( aka 1.5 spell rotations ) would be.

Because, as it happens, actually dealing your damage is important to make your score lead important, which the Lux absolutely didn't.

The kog was me and i didn't die lol. I killed her in her ulti cast so nothing happened.

AtanchanSep 28, 20172 votes

Yes, we've already established this.

Just like we already established the fact that Lux gave you the kill, due to hesitating instead of just killing the solo carry diving in on her while the rest of her team kept everyone else nearby busy.

SnakDatSmilesBakSep 27, 20175 votes

I think it's fair. Most champs, whatever their scores and aside from some supports, will be able to 1v1 a lux if she misses her ult.

AhrisSep 27, 2017

{quoted}

I think it's fair. Most champs, whatever their scores and aside from some supports, will be able to 1v1 a lux if she misses her ult.

Not ahri. If she is 3/14 or something she isn't going to be killing anybody.

LimrickSep 27, 20172 votes

That's just a flat lie, I played Lux into Ahri, was super fed, she was like 2/10 and built Visage and Morello, and she burst me after I missed Q. Don't even pretend Ahri doesn't have burst.

AhrisSep 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's just a flat lie, I played Lux into Ahri, was super fed, she was like 2/10 and built Visage and Morello, and she burst me after I missed Q. Don't even pretend Ahri doesn't have burst.

Okay show me replay pls. And all the items and stats for both Lux and Ahri and be in the same scenario as Kog was. Yes underlvled and one full item. Thanks.

LimrickSep 27, 20171 votes

I literally can't, new patch just rolled in and killed any replays. But you showed a Kog getting to free hit a Lux that didn't even fight back and it took him like 7 seconds to kill her, and he still died instantly right after. If she were fighting back, Lux or Ahri or any mage would annihilate that particular Kog. Not to say a Kog with proper support who isn't behind isn't ridiculous, but to pretend that Lux got "bursted" and couldn't do anything about it is just ridiculous.

And Ahri being down one level can still easily burst a Lux that isn't even trying to fight back, don't even try with that bullshit.

Recon1212Sep 27, 20173 votes

I mean he did get fed, but so was I. But we never 1v1'd he was always a team fight. He just sat in the back with his nami and nasus tanked everybody. The problem I felt was that there was no way of getting to him, like there was no win condition for us, thats where i think the problem is.

bleufromageSep 27, 20171 votes

Well if it is easy to get to them then how would anyone play kog. That's how it should work if you have a decent team.

Recon1212Sep 27, 20171 votes

So I may have misspoke a bit. I did get onto him a few times, but when I did it didn't matter.

SnakDatSmilesBakSep 27, 201710 votes

Just not true. 1v1 a yorick as kogmaw, 1v1 a tryndamere, 1v1 a jax. I guarantee you'll get your ass beat.

LegendmakerGXSep 27, 201713 votes

Actually with Yorick kog wins I've vs a Kog top before which was weird but he can non stop poke Yorick even when Yorick slow or traps Kog the damage Kog does is more then Yorick will do when he reaches him.

Trydamere and Jax obviously because they have ability that is mobility and a slow/CC after they engage.

SnakDatSmilesBakSep 27, 20172 votes

Please I've dumped on kogs with yorick on a support budget, don't tell me it can't be done. Kog just won't survive without his team.

LegendmakerGXSep 27, 20178 votes

When you say support budget does this mean you had a ADC beside you helping you do the damage and your team being fed in a 2v2or did this Kog actually solo you in a 1v1 and was behind because he lost his lane?

KaìjuSep 27, 20172 votes

If your jungler didn't camp top to bully the shit out of an ADC top like Kog then your team was bad and deserved to lose.

LegendmakerGXSep 28, 20171 votes

Oh Kog did get camp problem was it doesn't matter because he was able to farm non stop while harrasing me and his slow sort of stop jungler with out mobility which my jungler is WW.

KaìjuSep 30, 20171 votes

If that's what happened then you guys played something poorly because he should have been dead. If Kog top was as strong as you say it would be more common.

Recon1212Sep 27, 20174 votes

Maybe in some sort of 1v1 early, but i dont see how a Yorick is gonna kill a Kog with Bork and Guinsoos, in a 1v1, especially a Kog that is with a nami and his whole team.

Celestial Lion12Sep 27, 20171 votes

literally any fighter or assassin can beat kog in a 1v1 in a 2v2 with a support kog will win

JackMcSnipeyzSep 27, 20176 votes

I find it hard to believe you lost to kog 1v1 when you have windwall+ you ulted him. Yea he's strong, but he's still a glass cannon and died in 3 yasuo crits.

Unless of course it wasnt 1v1, and you were behind, and he was fed. Yea i think thats what happened

ChuShoeSep 27, 20171 votes

No, there's steraks + frozen hammer kog now

JackMcSnipeyzSep 27, 20173 votes

In that case i raise you frozen mallet + phantom dancer yas. Is he suddenly a tank? No, neither is kog, on equal terms yasuo who manages to ult kog 1v1 should win espacially when he has an ability that basiclly shuts his entire damage

SnakDatSmilesBakSep 27, 20171 votes

Yeah I'm thinking op left out a few details

ChuShoeSep 27, 20171 votes

You guys keep saying "1v1 yas ult" as if he doesn't need to land his 3rd Q before ulting, which is not as easy as it sounds, along with windwalling "all of his damage", that windwall is on a very long cooldown, it can be equated to a less useful teemo blind dart in this situation. All kog needs to do is back off and then either ult harass the yasuo from behind his w, until he's forced to leave the safety of it in order to try and kill the dang thing.

In the op's case, I think he's leaving out a few details, but hypothetically, let's assume each has 4 items not including boots. I don't think yasuo wins outright, it depends on the skill of the player.

*edit I'm sorry, is it his 4th Q or his 3rd Q I forget.

JackMcSnipeyzSep 28, 20173 votes

Of course if you go to kog when his W is up from max range and take auto attack after auto attack you're gonna lose. Kog's weakness is when you get on him he has no escapes and no mobility.

And yea, windwall is on a long cooldown but it is up for enough time to block almost his entire W which is where his power is. So the cooldown really doesnt matter if you use it correctly, yasuo can jump around minions to get to kog quickly while stacking 2 Q's to have his tornado by the 3rd and E+Q on him for a guranteed knockup.

It's really not as 1 sided in kog's side as you make it sound, i can also make excuses like "but kog's W can be on CD" or "kog cant escape when yasuo is ontop of him" but those are just excuses. IF yasuo gets kog in his ult >1v1< he WILL beat him unless the odds are horribly against him.

ChuShoeSep 28, 20171 votes

I can't argue with that logic, well done sir.

JackMcSnipeyzSep 28, 20171 votes

Cant tell if sarcastic or genuine but thanks regardless

ChuShoeSep 28, 20171 votes

no no, that wasn't sarcasm, sorry if that came off as sarcasm

No I really liked your point about kog not having any form of self peel besides flash (even then, sweeping blade/minions).

I do believe it also depends on the skill of each player too, but in a hypothetical scenario, you have to assume that certain things WILL happen, which is probably the biggest problem with discussing things like these through text posts on the forums, but it's nice when you actually get to, without the other person just shutting you out like "nu, ur wrong"

Recon1212Sep 27, 20171 votes

Yeah we never 1v1 and he had frozen mallet, but we were both fed, to some degree

JackMcSnipeyzSep 27, 20171 votes

If you never 1 v1 i assume you mean he always had a support , prob lulu or janna? In that case, it's not because hyper carries are OP, it's because they had better synergy most probably than you. Lets say, you had a malphite engage first and you ult in aswell, yea you should win. But just yasuo ult shouldnt shut down a fed hypercarry who is in position with a support by him.

CrettSep 27, 20175 votes

what items did you rush? beating an ADC as yasuo without a certain build is kinda dicey if you don't lean on wind wall

MelledoneusSep 27, 20175 votes

Tip: If you want to bring up examples, get some replays of the scenarios you mention.

Otherwise you're just telling fiction to everyone reading the post.

And A Real HieroSep 27, 20171 votes

Vids or it didn't happen :D

Aatrox Mid 1v5Sep 27, 20174 votes

No matter how fed a kogmaw is, he's still Extremely reliant on the peep from his team. That and the fact that he needs his 3 item powersouke to start being a hypercarry

ThefrostyvikingSep 27, 20173 votes

Just how badly fed was kog and how much did you feed for him to beat you 1v1?

OR did you miss out that there was a lulu or Janna around there somewhere?

Because there is no way that a non-fed kog can beat a Yasuo 1v1 if the Yasuo has even the slightest clue about what he´s doing.

Thus the only possible answer is that Kog was hella fed and the Yasuo was probably also behind.

Recon1212Sep 27, 20171 votes

Both of us were fed, but we never 1v1d

ThefrostyvikingSep 27, 20171 votes

So he did have a lulu/janna/nami/sona -something that kept him alive and probably CC'ed you too?

Maybe also someone using item 3109 on him?

For ¨you know.....if you landed Q-R-AA-AA on him he would be out of health unless he buys a frozen mallet....then he might need 1 or 2 more autos to die.

But since you claim that he survived each and every ultimate you landed ( no help from your team?) and that he then sat still and just gunned you down that means someone was helping him.

And i find it reaaally strange that your team, in a skirmish/teamfight would just up and ignore you managing to ult the kog and didn't react to try and help you or anything.

Because as long as someone did at least 500 extra damage on the kog he would be dead even with a lulu or Janna there.

But since you clearly didn't have any help, the kog did have help, i can only conclude that you went diving balls deep into a team that was ready for you while your team wasn't ready to followup or they were goofing off somewhere.

There isn't a issue with kog's balance in any of these cases.

Thus i conclude that your post is just a huge biased clickbait.

PePsiLemoNNSep 27, 20173 votes

Ok. Now trying doing that with Kog without item 3109 item 3504 item 3190 .

Edit : Yep , Kog was 10/5 with 8.5cs/min with a Sona item 3504 . 10/10 for upvote farming tho

Recon1212Sep 27, 20171 votes

Are you talking about my game? Cause he had a nami supp, he also had like 20 kills i believe.

wyvern011976Sep 27, 20173 votes

Kog is one of my favorite champs, but he is so team comp dependent that I almost never get to play him. If your team is not built to protect him or the other team brain dead he usually just performs mediocre at best. This is borne out in his win/loss rate. If you are having issues then learn to play YOUR champ better and that sometimes EVERY CHAMP cant kill every other champ at certain points in the game. Positioning is key and sometimes that POSITION is behind your tower while your ADC or other ranged champs defend until you either close a gold gap, the other team get out of position, or you just lose to a better composition/play skill team.

RebonackSep 27, 20172 votes

Kog isn't a hyper-carry.

The only time he's been a hyper-carry (success rate grows with game time, never drops off) is when his W scaled with AD for, like, one patch back in Season 1 and two patches after the Marksmen update.

Kog peaks mid-game and doesn't grow that much stronger because his one and only steroid worth mentioning caps after he has Rageblade. Champions like Twitch and Vayne actually keep getting stronger the longer the game runs. He's strong because of the 'Blowjobs and Icecream for Marksmen' meta we're sitting in the middle of. Tanks and Enchanters are really good picks, so anyone who does well with protection (like Kog) is going to be a solid choice.