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You've added too much urgency to the game and it kills calm decision making

Brain Errör 404··49 votes·2,657 views

Honestly, the way you have the game set up is actually detrimental to overall game health. I get you wanted to force this whole, "You should be able to work together as a team if you want to move up" mentality, but this is actual garbage right now. I hate losing games the way I do as it stands. People like to say things like, "don't feed and I'll carry". I used to be able to stand by those words. I use to feel like I had a chance to make a comeback if I took the game slow and planned out what I wanted to do.

Right now, I feel FORCED to have to FORCE plays in order to come out on top. If my forced plays work out, I win. If they fail, I lose. That's what this game comes down to right now. Obviously, there will be those one offs, but those are few and far between. Riot, honestly, you really need to reel back. And I mean REEL back on A LOT of things. Here are things I think need to be addressed:

1: Constant buffing. Stop. STOP -- suggestion:

- QoL changes. LOTS of them. Kit adjustments. Power shifting. You don't need to raise DAMAGE to make champs good again. Start tuning EVERYTHING down

2: Shields/Heals - Duration too long/up too often

  • We have adequate enough ways to deal with heals, but there has to be a way to start either dealing with shields or lower the duration of them and have more skill expression when using them. Well timed shields should come with benefits and mistimed shields should have more sever punishments

3: Obviously, damage. Tone it down, nothing else to say here

4: Held back by your weakest team member and inability to play around your strongest.

  • What this basically means, is that the ability to solo carry is out the window. Honestly, it's time to stop forcing these snooze fests in soloQue. Your game only works slightly in competitive as it stands and soloQ is a mess. Your weakest team member, especially if they lack any kind of utility, can cost you the game. This has always been the case, but not as much as it is this season. With proper rotations, wave managements, picks and split pushing, you could cover for the weakness any of your allies had. Being 3-4 levels above an entire team was enough to practically solo carry and almost 1v5. Now, 1-2 people depending on kits is enough to shut down a person 3-4 levels higher. This is actually atrocious. People should be rewarded appropriately for playing the map right. I get you may HATE one person turning the tide of a battle, but I much rather get stomped by one person than an entire team. Or LOSE because one person on my team basically isn't up to par.

5: Highlight objective focus.

  • League doesn't have enough of a focus on objectives. This will counteract my point of 4, but it's also what you SHOULD'VE done in the first place. Objectives, such as dragon/herald baron should NOT be soloable. At almost any point in the game, these objectives should require at minimum THREE members to secure. Any less makes them too EASY, doesn't advocate team play and makes it neigh impossible for proper set up and preparation. These are things that should be looked at and offer better, TEMPORARY bonuses. I think permanent boosts from dragons are unhealthy for gameplay and have way too much invisible power in the game. It was a nice attempt at diversifying gameplay, but at the moment it's not accomplishing any tasks. Just making games more snowbally than they need to be and add unneeded calculations into equations we shouldn't even have to have. Winning these objectives should provide beneficial boosts to allow teams to secure other adjacent objectives if they PLAY the MAP properly. This means, you don't just get a lead and think you can set back and enjoy the free stomp.

I believe this adds a more HEALTHY form of urgency to the game, while advocating teamwork and still incorporating enough strategy so that league evolves from the slapstick that it is today into the great game we use to have.

6: Item restrictions.

  • Look, I get it. You love the diversity and freedom of choice you "think" you give players. This was great for league back when you had less. But as it stands, you have too many champions. I'm not say that this is a BAD thing, but you WILL not and WILL NEVER balance this game how you may think you will if you don't start locking out certain items that ranged users can abuse. Gnar and urgot being the exception, I'm sure you can find a pretty easy workaround for that. But Riot, honestly, you need to stop being hard headed about this. Black clever has gotten gutted thanks to ranged champs, and honestly the easiest work around for it would be to make an adc alternative that offers the armor shred bonuses that doesn't give health and get abused. You want more diversity and item choices, restricting items is actually your stepping stone.

7: Jungler impact.

  • I don't want to say that junglers have the biggest impact, but honestly that impact is TOO big for top lane. I can't play aggro top lane at the cost of getting absolutely ravaged by the jungler. Yes, top lane is in a terrible spot. Yes, I main top lane. Yes, I'm now complaining about top, but that's not what this thread is about. I specifically avoided this topic, but I just had to get this out. Here's what I suggest: having a jungle item cuts exp in half for lane minions and increases exp gained from jungle monsters and epic monsters. Getting major objectives such as dragon/hearld/baron gives an added exp bonus for junglers (remember, TEMPORARY bonuses. This can either be flat exp gained or a buff for bigger gains for a time limit). This further increases the need to focus objectives, taking away early game jungle power (ganking at the cost of levels) and enforces a more healthy style of play. But, this has some drawbacks as it benefits farm heavy junglers like Lee and Shyv too much, so some tweaking is in need.

That's basically all I have for now. I'm probably renowned on this boards for complaining too much, but since Riot and everyone else wants PROPER discussions with some suggestions, I thought I'd chip in my own 2 cents.

42 Comments

Iffy Jarl4 votes

You're saying the game makes you feel forced to make plays but you don't really explain how

  1. I kind of agree with you on that one the pattern does seem to be buff the rest rather than nerf the few

  2. I think you need to be more specific here you just say shields but do you mean things like locket and Fot which are only active for about 3 seconds do you mean enchanters like karma and janna whose shields last 4 seconds but rush cd, or self mitigated dmg shields on people like nautilus, vi and sion

  3. Again specifics

  4. You basically contradict yourself here because you label the section "being held back by 1 teammate-" but then say how a person should be able to 1v5 if they are a few levels ahead, what is more withholding than being forced to 1v5 someone who has been fed by a teammate. Besides you contradicting yourself I would have to say that I prefer a game that promotes teamplay rather than solo carrying.

  5. I agree with you in the sense that some objectives are far too easy to solo(not baron) for champs with alot of sustain like ww but they don't completely remove teamplay while it is possible to solo, setting up a drag with a gank bot and vision denial is much more viable then soloing it pre 6 and dipping below half health risking the enemy jungler walking up just to ward but getting a free kill and drag instead. So i do agree with what you're saying here I'm always up for more teamplay but I don't think the state objective play is in rn is as bad as you think it is.

  6. 100 percent agree with you here

  7. I feel like effective counter jungling is the cure here, and a jungle item that cuts lane minions in half is going to to little to nothing when a jungler ganks he maybe taxes 2 or 3 absolute max 4 minions(not including a cannon) increasing jungle xp would encourage more ganks the only thing stopping junglers from ganking 24/7 is that if a gank fails and they get snaked off a blue buff and raptors they are immediatley super behind for the rest of the game giving the leisure of extra xp removes their time clock for jungle farm.

Divewing1 votes

I shouldn't have to rely on my jungler being = or > the enemy jungler just so I can actually consider making a play (yes this shit happens mid lane too).

Iffy Jarl1 votes

{quoted}

I shouldn't have to rely on my jungler being = or > the enemy jungler just so I can actually consider making a play (yes this shit happens mid lane too).

ok and what part of what I said does this pertain to?

Altonius Amakiir4 votes

Your post seems to be ignoing a lot of other things in the game and making a lot of assumptions off of personal experience. For instance: Mage and magic-assassin damage is down from last season. Tank damage is up for magic damage dealers however. It's not a straight damage buff across the board on league. They also aren't only buffing champions, they are buffing many too. So saying that power is only going up and across the board nerfs are needed is fictitious. If you feel that certain champions are too strong or certain classes/sub-classes too strong, talk about those.

Also like I said, a lot of this seems to be based off personal experience. There were some large changes this pre-season, if you didn't take the time to learn them, you will have issues, especially at Jungling. The new rune system isn't easy, it has meaningful choices now, which means picking a sub-optimal rune in a single slot can drastically affect your games. They also made it so most champions have multiple viable choices, which I think further adds to the confusion. I would suggest learning which runes are best in row, and which are optimal when. For instance, Celerity is best in slot, and transcendence is garbage low-gold value unless you plan to get 50% CDR or more. If you choose transcendence you are playing for late game. Also it doesn't kick in till about 15 minutes in, so until then you are playing without a rune. If you take it on support, it would take till 18 minutes about. If you were to make similar bad rune choices on a jungler, it compounds, because you can't clear as fast, don't do as much damage in ganks, etc.

TLDR: Once you take the time to learn the new runes, I promise your winrate will increase. It's not that everyone is doing too much damage, it's that you aren't doing enough because of sub-optimal rune choices.

Brain Errör 4044 votes

What? With the addition of the new runes, damage levels are the highest they have EVER been. Damage levels across the board is, in fact, TOO high. This is NOT just a champion issue, but a rune issue as well. Most of Riot's changes have been damage up -> damage down -> ratios up -> ratios down and there's too much back and forth. They nerf one champ's damage and buff another's. This doesn't change the fact that damage, as a whole, is way too high.

I laned against a TOP Janna the other day and she auto'd + w'd me for over 100 damage playing Riven. A JANNA at level 1 does 100 damage with Aery in a 2 step combo, hello? That's not to say, "Oh, Janna is op does too much damage, please nerf". I'm just saying, overall, there's way too much factors adding up for the mess that is damage in this game.

Another thing, this is based BOTH off of personal experience and observation. Observers looking in may miss some important things but having both experience gives you a bigger outlook at the game. So, this completely negates your first sentence. You can' say this is based off of personal experience and then tell me I'm making ASSUMPTIONS. Assumptions is the act of taking things as true WITHOUT proof. There's ENOUGH proof via personal experience than me and many others can vouch for. This game has issues and many issues at that. Saying "damage across the boards doesn't need nerfs" is absurd. Especially when people are complaining about TANKS out damaging them.

Moving on, where did you think I was a jungle? I'm not a jungler when I clearly stated I'm a top lane main. And who the hell hasn't learned the rune system yet? I've played this game long enough to learn new changes that come to this game within 2-3weeks time. I keep up to date on this stuff and I research league like it's my job. I'm not picking "sub-optimal" runes. Unless I'm experimenting, I take the best runes that are called for in each situation. It's not rocket science.

Onto your other point, how can you make a claim that celerity is BiS and then FURTHER call the only other viable rune in that page "garbage"? Transcendence is mostly a bruiser keystone as only they build 40%+ CDR on their items and they benefit the most from it. At level 10, the rune has about 266.6 gold value to it. For every 10% cdr above it, it's another 350g. Absolute focus is bad because half the time you'll never be above 70% HP BECAUSE damage is so high in the game. Only people who can effectively poke without getting damaged will take that rune. So, in essence, even absolute focus is better for the early game on some champs than others.

We also talked about diversity and what riot wanted with this new rune system. The fact that you can consider some runes "sub-optimal" means the system already failed, which further increases my points on the matter. This game is currently set up to increase frustrations over it rather than increase fun factor. You call my arguments "assumptions" and "fictitious" when there's already more than enough posts going around saying the same thing... this is just my chip in for the discussions. How about you do some research before calling people out?

I'm fine with having a discussion, but you need to provide your backup arguments to support where what I said is false.

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

Well I had made a post explaining this that I was almost done with, but my computer reset. So since I'm a bit pissed off now (because I had set it where it was supposed to prompt me before any restart), I will now try to remake the post, but it's probably not going to be worded as nicely. Please excuse my anger.

First off don't go talking about feelings, personal experience, what other people are posting, observations, and what have you as if they are facts. You want facts, heres some hard math: https://youtu.be/RkRYrCtbq9s Damage has NOT gone up across the board. The video done by a Rioter, shows very clearly an entire class of champions has lost damage. If you want to talk about damage increasing, please talk about other classes or specific champions. Saying damage has gone up across the board is a straight lie and Riot knows it. If you talk about specific classes or champions though, your post won't look like you talking out of your ass and they will be more apt to listen in. It helps all of us that if you are seeing an actual issue, that you properly communicate it so that you can be taken seriously and it can be fixed to make it more enjoyable for everyone. If you have an observation you think is correct, then share it, but don't spout it as fact, high probability by your assessment does not equal fact. If you want to spout it as fact, run some numbers, compare their damage to others in the class or to themselves last patch or something.

Transcendence IS hot garbage unless you plan on going above 40% CDR. I feel like we both understand this here, but here's the math anyways, compared to Celerity.

Celerity with no boots on a slow, 325 movement speed champion: 325[baseMS0.03[celerity MS ratio]=9.75[Celerity flat MS] 9.7512[gold per point MS]=117[gold] 9.75[bonus MS]*0.08[MS to AP conversion celerity gives]=0.78[AP] 0.78[AP]*21.75[gold per point AP]=16.965[gold] 16.965[gold]+117[gold]=133.965[gold]

Celerity with tier 2 boots[45 flat MS] on a slow 325 movement speed champion: (325+45)0.03=11.1 11.112=133.2[gold] (11.1+45)0.0821.75=97.614[gold] 133.2[gold]+97.614[gold]=230.814[gold]

We will use your numbers for Transcendence.

So now we do our calculations under the assumption of an average game. Ends at 30 minutes, hit level 10 at 15 minutes (18 minutes if you're a support), and buy tier 2 boots at 12 minutes (no tier 1 before hand for this). And for now, we won't exceed 40% CDR.

Transcendence: 15[min]/30[min]=0.5 0.50[gold]+0.5266.6[gold]=133.3[gold] is the average worth on an average game if you don't get past 40% CDR.

Celerity: 12[min]/30[min]=0.4 0.4133.965[gold]+0.6230.814[gold]=192.0744[gold] is the average worth on an average game if you don't buy tier 1 boots early, on the slowest champion grouping, without taking into account any other MS sources.

Okay, but what about if I'm fed and get items early and reach levels early and get 50% CDR? (hit level 10 at 13:45, get 50% CDR at 20:00)

Transcendence: 13.75[min]/30[min]=0.45833 (20-13.75)/30=0.20833 0.458330[gold]+0.20833266.6[gold]+0.33333*(266.6+350)[gold]=261.7206[gold]

Significantly better than Celerity now.

Now lets be a bit more fair and give Celerity some similar conditions. (T1 boots at 8:30, T2 boots at 11:00, a fast 345 MS champion)

Celerity: 8.5[min]/30[min]=0.28333 (11-8.5)/30=0.08333 1-0.28333-0.08333=0.63333 345*0.03=10.35[MS] 10.35[MS]*12[gold]+10.35[MS]0.0821.75[gold]=142.209[gold] (345+25)*0.03=11.1[MS] 11.1[MS]12[gold]+(11.1+25)[bMS]0.0821.75[gold]=196.014[gold] (345+45)0.03=11.7[MS] 11.7[MS]12[gold]+(11.7+45)[bMS]0.0821.75[gold]=239.058[gold] 0.28333142.209+0.08333196.014+0.63333239.058=208.02853[gold]

Transcendence is still better if it has 50% CDR. But my point was that most people aren't going to build 50% CDR or more so Celerity is best in slot. That doesn't mean the others aren't viable under certain conditions, but it means people need to stop going transcendence if all they ever plan to do with it is get to 40% CDR. It's a trap if that is your plan with it, and you will feel it in game if you take it just to reach 40% CDR.

For that slot if you plan to get 50% CDR or more, go Transcendence. Likewise, if you are playing a someone who can deal damage while above 70% health consistently, go Absolute Focus. All other cases go Celerity. Celerity is your only choice if you do not fufill those two niches. That is why Celerity is best in slot, because most champions/builds don't get a choice and even those that do, Celerity is still a viable option. That is why they nerfed it, because it contested too much when the others were options, now it only contests slightly. And again, looking at the facts, damage is not that high across the board, Absolute Focus is good on tanks and enchanters/support mages.

Sub-optimal doesn't mean bad. It means for that particular circumstance, with that particular champion, against that particular team, with your particular build, that it is not the best choice. All the runes have a niche where someone will want to take them over the others (except Lethal Tempo according to Riot internal data leaked by Phreak).

The fact you didn't know either of these and junmped the gun at me claiming I don't know my facts, tells me no, you do not have a full comprehension of the new rune system. I don't even claim to have a full grasp yet and I know this stuff. Like I have no idea how to use Unsealed Spellbook, I don't know how to use Phase Rush/Predator optimally, I can't figure out who works best with Dark Harvest, and I don't know who to try Glacial Augment on. But at least I know the non-keystone runes!

Riot did not want diversity per-say. They wanted your choices to be meaningful (if you choose sub-optimally you won't do well), and to have choices (just because there isn't something in each and every path/slot, doesn't mean there isn't a second keystone or secondary that works). And they have achieved this goal. Most champions have multiple keystones that work, almost all runes have a niche they fulfill, and you aren't stuck choosing a single primary or secondary. Also not everything works, you have to choose good runes and be a good judge of that to win. There is a bit of win/lose in rune selection, which if you want it to be meaningful, that should happen.

I have done my research, I would suggest you do the same.

Here's a post I made to summarize when to use each rune. Tried to make it as simple as I could without missing anything important. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/Vwwnp0cr-an-unskilled-guide-to-runes

mack91122 votes

Damn son you deserve a million upvotes just damn

Brain Errör 4041 votes

He missed a shit ton of stuff in that video and literally only compared base stats to base stats. He didn't factor in anything offered by the new runes in rune reforged until the malzahar comparison. He's saying base damages are down and are pretty much the same overall. You can't call this a proper comparison. At the same time, you can't take this crap out in a vacuum and then say, "damage across the board isn't up because one set of classes has the same set of damage as the past seasons". What you do, by doing this, is SKEW facts to fit YOUR point. The new runes are seriously not that confusing and are straight forward. Aside from the Malzahar damage, he didn't go on a case by case basis for all champs. To top it off, Malzahar was using unsealed spellbook and not aery/commet. Don't even forget the fact where he's stating that tanks are doing more damage in all points of the game.

On that note, just because you play champs that can't use transcendence or have a play style that doesn't use it properly, does NOT mean it's garbage. There's also plenty of mages that overcap CDR because CDR is practically on EVERY item. There are also mages that would prefer to get transcendence most if not every time over celerity. But me, being mostly a Riven one trick, will take transcendence 100% of the time and never take celerity over it. It'd be mad not to. Which comes to my point of it being:

Transcendence is core on some champs which makes it BiS for characters like Riven. And she's not the only one who can use it efficiently. You completely negate the fact of how important that 10% CDR itself is. The passive for it just makes it all the more gold efficient, but it's gold efficient enough simply for that 10%. And that's not disproving you that celerity is actually good and better on most champs, because I only take it on champs who I know I won't build CDR on, nor even need CDR for. So like you said, for the most part, we agree there.

And you say Riot didn't make runes reforged to have more diversity in the game? Do I need to link you the runes reforged video again? At any rate, to save time, here's a small extract from one of their previous devblog:

" Most of these slots are used up equipping your character with "required" stats like attack speed, armor, and magic resist. This makes much of Rune/Mastery selection more of a chore than a choice. Additionally, splitting all of the power across so many pieces prevents us from making any of your choices important—or powerful—enough, to really be cool."

As you can see, Riot wanted players to have choices that reflect their play style. But what we got, was even more gated choices where we're forced to lock in to the best optimized selection. Sorry, but the previous system had way more customization than the current one.

Unfortunately, I won't sit down and nit pick whose damage is up and whose is down. I'm stating for the overall portions of the game that damage right now is definitely too high and has to be reeled back. You can go ahead and nitpick all you want, it doesn't change the facts. Playing Riven, I can tell you that her damage this season is lower than almost all seasons before it. But I won't sit here and say, "but Riven doesn't need some toning back" because that's simply me being bias. I'm not giving any class any bias. Damage has to come down for everyone. Obviously there are deeper things to look at, but that's not my job. I'm pointing out the areas and giving my 2 cents on the matter. I'm not offering solutions because I'm not a game designer nor a math nerd. I can't tell you the right path to take, but as an avid player of this game I can 100% tell you if the direction you're going in is the wrong one or not.

Altonius Amakiir2 votes

How can you call what you are saying fact?

I have shown math that shows that Transcendence is not gold efficient as a rune unless you hit 50% CDR, but you claim that it somehow is undervalued at 40% or less CDR when the math, and how you calculate gold value shows it is not worth as much. You don't build an item that isn't optimal on your champion, why would you do that with runes. The goal of any build should be to get the most out of your choices, if you are giving up 60+ gold at champ select for something else, you should have a good reason for it. And I'm sorry, but liking a rune doesn't make it any less of a bad choice. I like playing ADC Zilean, that doesn't make it a good ranked choice. There's a reason pros are almost all getting Perfect Timing right now, it's because it is probably one of the most gold efficient runes right now. That and the other choices in slot are just that much less valuable. This is how you play the game, you make choices on stats that are most gold valued by your champion. On Riven, that could be transcendence if you are going to hit at least 50% CDR, on every mage, there is no reason to build 50% CDR. Most mages don't even hit 40% right now for optimal build. You would have to take Transcendence, get Morello (which mages are starting to move away from a bit with the mana on the new runes), Banshee, and Zhonya. And you give up a lot of AP getting both. Of course you could get Lucidity boots, but then you are giving up penetration. The amount mages earn in AP from Transcendence has the opportunity cost of movement speed which is highly valued by squishies, and magic penetration, which mages are very reliant on. Transcendence is not gold efficient, and making it gold efficient is not build efficient on most champions, especially ADCs, Assassins, and Mages (who all value MS very highly to stay alive). That's the last I'm probably going to say on this, because if you can't accept that math has proven your claim false for general use (below 50%), yet you wanted to try to use math in the first place to assert that claim, then you are not a person that can be reasoned with, and this is a waste of my time.

As for Phreak's video. He did not compare base stats to base stats. I don't actually believe you looked at the video based off your reactionary statements. He accounted for AP ratios on abilities, he accounted for durability, he accounted for runes, he accounted for old runes/masteries. He did one in-depth analysis on Malzahar to show his process and so that anyone actually watching it could at least know that he did that math correctly. He then showed the results of others in an attempt to save time, and not belay the topic.

Now I'm going to ask you to calm down and actually read to understand what I'm saying here. I'd like to not have to say this a forth time (and this is how I know you are just spouting angry words at me instead of trying to have a reasonable conversation). If a class of champions, an entire class, has damage down across the board, then it isn't an exception, and damage is not up across all champions or across the whole game. You can't say 100% is true when 15% has been proven false. That is not to say however that another class could not be out of place. I've seen the video and it's math. Yes, magic damage tanks are dealing more damage. But the video shows two classes (not even a full class with tanks, not all tanks do magic damage), one increased in damage output, the other decreased. You can't make a generalization that damage is up or down across the board with two data points. So what I'm asking since we know a large portion of champions did lose out on damage this preseason, is to not claim it's across the board, or that damage is too high. Again that doesn't help anyone, it just flames up the community over a non-specific topic and makes it harder for us to get specific targetable problems brought up to Riot. If you are noticing a pattern with a certain class or champion, or even several, bring it up calmly in a post, no yelling, no anger posting, just stated observations, and stated theories. Ask the community to help you math it out, bring up some winrate statistics, talk about their performance against supposed counters. These can work as a basis for conversations to get things done. Yelling damage is up doesn't get us anywhere, because as the video has shown that isn't necessarily true.

Showing data, and talking only on the data we have is not skewing things. I also didn't say damage isn't up, I've been saying damage isn't up across the boards, or if I did, it should have been fairly clear through the context and format that I'm pointing out a fallacy on your part. The fact that I said to point out specific classes or champions should show that I do think there could be champions or classes that are out of place damage-wise. Please don't create out of context/false quotes, and don't twist my words, THAT would be skewing things to fit your point.

Now you've gone and quoted Riot, but your quote doesn't even prove the point you are trying to make: that it's about diversity. The post actually even backs up what I was saying, that they wanted to offer us choices, and for those choices to be meaningful. They even use the word choices in the quote then go on about how they needed to reduce the amount of runes/mastery options so that those choices would be meaningful. I have to ask at this point with the amount that I am repeating my past posts: Are you even reading this, or are you just skimming around for something to get angry about?

Optimizing is apart of any competitive game, if you don't want to optimize, that's your choice, but by definition you will lose more to those that do optimize, and it probably won't be a fun experience. People will also call you out on it, as I am, you got to get a thick skin about it, and just reply that you just want to play whatever is most fun, whether its optimal or not. No one can blame you for that. Just keep in mind though, if you don't optimize then talk about game balance, you will seem less credible, especially personal experience/anecdotes.

Unfortunately, I won't sit down and nit pick whose damage is up and whose is down. I'm stating for the overall portions of the game that damage right now is definitely too high and has to be reeled back. You can go ahead and nitpick all you want, it doesn't change the facts. Playing Riven, I can tell you that her damage this season is lower than almost all seasons before it. But I won't sit here and say, "but Riven doesn't need some toning back" because that's simply me being bias. I'm not giving any class any bias. Damage has to come down for everyone. Obviously there are deeper things to look at, but that's not my job. I'm pointing out the areas and giving my 2 cents on the matter. I'm not offering solutions because I'm not a game designer nor a math nerd. I can't tell you the right path to take, but as an avid player of this game I can 100% tell you if the direction you're going in is the wrong one or not.

That doesn't really help anyone though. The boards has a problem currently of people getting riled up over stuff like that and then we get overtaken with likewise posts of people screaming something needs to be done, damage is too high. Rioters see no actual conversations and back out because who wants to me and try to have a civil conversation, if all you're going to get back is screams at half of what you said, people ignoring facts, people dismissing other facts, have their own words miss-quoted, and having to repeat yourself in three different places to the same person because they can't bother to read what you say? No, Rioter would want to have this same conversation with you, nor would they want to reply to any of the other posts with people in a blind rage like you. And that's why people need to stop making these posts, whenever we get overrun by them, we lose more Rioters consistently commenting on here, we can't get any constructive conversations going, and we lose all credibility as a community until it blows over.

I just want people to realize that to get things done, to see REAL change, you have to get Rioters to read your post, to understand where you're coming from, to have an idea of where to look for changes, and it all has to feel non-confrontational. If your post were to have been specific saying a class of champions feels out of line, a Rioter may have read your post, saw that you had a point, and brought it up with the balance team. They don't have time to re-write your post in a professional manner and ship it to the balance team, they might not even bother reading a post that's so confrontational, and they may think it's just another player whining about whatever comes to mind if it is this vague (and thus won't even take it seriously). Your post needs to be well written enough to either encourage someone to make a better post, maybe even using yours as the basis for theirs, or well written enough that a Rioter would feel comfortable passing it on as a link to the balance team so they can respond personally. Only a small portion of Rioters come on here to read our posts, and even fewer to comment (at least on a regular basis), most Rioters are scared to respond on here because people misquote them or twist their words, and most just don't want to deal with the toxic attitude. The Rioters that do come on here need to show only the best comments to the non-users to both encourage them to maybe join in regularly, and to keep their credibility. If a Meddler were to pass on your post to the balance team, do you think they would be likely to look at the next post he gives them?

Brain Errör 4041 votes

I think you're really missing the point of my post. Let me put this in simple, short terms so we both stop reading essays that neither will succumb to. First off, you're the only one making a notion that anyone is really "angry" or "yelling" here when I'm doing neither. I simply brought up problems concerning the game BASED off of my observations.

The reason the post is vague and doesn't go into in-depth detail is BECAUSE I don't have the math NOR statistics to give a real in-depth analysis. You're not the only one repeating yourself, so am I. And to top it off, you're now telling me that taking what just about ALL Riven mains consider a best in slot rune is now not best in slot for a champ that I main?

I haven't attacked you, nor discredited anything you've said. You're truly the only one here that seems to be in a hissy fit because I'm not seeing from your side of view, but that's not the case. I understand everything that you're saying here, I just simply don't agree with it. Gold efficiency isn't the only thing to look at. Whether Riven goes for a 50% CDR build or not doesn't matter. The fact is, you want to RUSH 40% CDR which is why transcendence is considered core on people that want to quickly get to that 40%. I already agreed with you on the matter that celerity, overall, is the better rune to take most of the time, however, simply disagreed that it was BiS -- as you've said that generally only pointing to the gold efficiency. You also didn't take into account that people who don't even use the sorcery tree for primary, barely take it as secondary. And when they do dip into it, they don't do it for celerity, they do it for manaflow/ultimate hate, transcendence or scorch.

This post just pokes at the direction riot should be looking at, not giving them solutions to a problem. This is what a DISCUSSION is for. For people to chip in, provide the statistics and mathematical equations and group together as a community to figure out what has to be done. Not everyone here is a mathematician, game analyzer, problem solver. Some of us can plainly see the problem the game faces without being able to provide all the evidence of it, but does not mean that the issues stated aren't inherent problems. This is a post that encourages more discussion on the matter, and while debates may be part of discussions, that isn't primarily what this is here for. I'm not here to debate points and try to stretch whose e-peen is bigger. I appreciate the video and some insight on the numbers, but it just doesn't touch base.

I'm also not going to make another top lane/brusier is bad thread. There's tons of those. There's also a few "junglers have too much impact" threads and now "adcs are too strong" threads. I made a thread for overall game state. That's simply all there is to it.

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

Full caps words are generally seen as yelling in text formats. If you want to emphasize a word without it being interpreted as yelling (and setting that tone for the rest of your post), I suggest using italicizes. Also, using your original point 3 as an example again, the phrasing of that sentence sets a rushed tone, which can again be interpreted as yelling or angry, especially when paired with full caps words.

It can be vague to a degree, but the level of vagueness you are using (damage is up), is too vague for anyone to use as a fluid starting point to a conversation. Take Draehl who posted on our large comment thread. He is vague, he doesn't have numbers, but he posts a specific observation that shows a trend which others could measure or track. If a Rioter were to read it, they might even go and see how Bard's and Zyra's damage or winrate was affected by preseason, they might also check mage supports, or comment on upcoming work for them. He isn't making several points of speculation on changes or areas to target without anything to back it up with. That's the difference here. He is stating observations and that it seems like an issue, you are stating a vague issue, then stating solutions with no solid reason for them. For all we know the areas you are pointing out are red herrings. There needs to be a specific reason for targeted changes like that.

If you are waiting half the game to rush something, it isn't rushing, that's what you are missing. Also I could be wrong now since it's been a few patches since I read this, but Sorcery was the highest picked secondary path. I digress though. The point of that whole tandem was to probe to see if there might be something on your end causing these observations. In my opinion, based off of Transcendence alone, yes, you are causing at least some of it by choosing sub-optimal runes for you champions. Where I had planned to go from there is make some suggestions as I did, then go about asking on each point for greater detail (as I am now doing in the last paragraph here). I got a bit side-tracked with how I usually go about with these responses because of the computer issue, the insult to my credibility, and my general temper (I have been blessed with anger management issues from both my mother and father, which still flares up from time to time). If you believe it is still best for you to take Transcendence on a 40% CDR Riven after knowing it's gold value and that it takes half the game until it turns on, then go ahead and take it. I do ask however that you look at high tier Rivens (I have not) and see if they also see it as a must have. Because chances are if they don't (because pro play has to optimize) then it's not optimal. I am sorry for my large tangent on facts/Transcendence and I thank you for your patience with me up until now.

I would not say this generates a lot of discussion, that's personal feeling, but my reasoning is that the post comes off very hostile first off. Makes people who want to have a discussion not feel like commenting, and those who are angry just come to upvote. That being said, it is certainly not anywhere close to the average or worst posts I've seen with an angry tone. I would also say it is not very conductive of discussion, because you didn't really start a discussion, you more or less put out really wordy headings for topics. Damage is up, don't buff, lower shield/heal values and raise cooldowns, lower damage, I can't solo carry/1v5, remove permanent buffs and make epics only kill-able with full team, make cleaver melee only, nerf exp to junglers being in lane. And a lot of these topics have official Riot statements already. They will buff champions even if there are others that also need to be nerfed, it's better for the game and for internal organization to not hunt down every single nerf before they start buffing champions, it would take too long otherwise, and they only buff champions if they need it. They don't want solo carries, they have specifically made changes to make that harder, likewise with 1v5 potential. They see shields as a problem, they are looking at them systematically, they removed the shield battery quest giving a massive shield, and they removed FotM, they are also discussing adding a counter-shield item. There's a lot on epics/permanent buffs, but what you probably care most about is they plan to make epic monsters feel more epic while fighting them (down the line), and they have no plans to get rid of permanent buffs. Black Cleaver is balanced currently, and there is little abuse of it, if abuse cases pop up, they will resort to melee only as a last resort. They want the average jungler to be more encouraged to gank than to farm, a select few junglers who like to farm more is fine, but they don't want a farming meta again (not interactive, and creates slow games).

What I would suggest to make it more interactive is first off make point 5 a separate post, it has nothing to do with balance. That seems to be more of a personal desire. For 6, what items are you observing being abused? And then as secondary questions to have in the back of your mind: Why should this item be melee only? What are the possible drawbacks of melee only? For 1, Riot has stated that that tactic is much slower and harder to organize than how they currently do things, as well as it causing weak champions to be untouched for longer periods of time. What would you suggest in light of this? For 2, Riot has heard the community on this, they are working on it and have taken a few steps already. On 3, this is a repeat of 1 and may indicate aggressiveness or bias to the reader, delete it. On 4, this is was actually a goal of Riot from the start of last year (if I remember correctly), I would suggest making a separate post to try to convince Riot to change that policy. On 7, Riot wants to encourage ganking as it is the interactive part of playing jungle. Your plans seem to make jungling less interactive as a role, how would you make sure that doesn't happen? These are changes I would make if you were to re-post this, not edits to make right now. I also don't expect or suggest actually remaking it (although you can if you want), this is merely just a tool to show you how, even without statistics, math, etc; you could have made the post more conductive to discussion. Feel free to answer them here even if you feel so inclined (although my homework is starting to pile up so expect less frequent replies).

[And I failed at my goal to make a smaller reply, why can't I ever make short replies?]

Draehl2 votes

Great post, but damage relative to defense IS up. I dont know if its penetration items, runes, armor/mr calculations or what, but something has changed. Some very anecdotal evidence but I main Bard and Zyra support. On Zyra it feels significantly easier to kill other champions. By contrast I like to build Bard tanky for the purpose of wading into fights to be a stun machine. Since the patch it doesnt matter if you take Resolve and stack pure tank items it barely makes a difference to your durability. I can, however go Comet or Electrocute and build Lich Bane + Ludens and be just as much of a damage threat as the next guy. It feels very much skewed in favor of dealing damage which hurts playstyle choice as well as champions who do better in longer fights.

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

Fair, even if your testimony is anecdotal, you take note of it and talk on what you know. And most importantly the tone is sincere and not angry. A post like this can start a conversation, others could do the bulk work seeing if there's anything you may be doing to personally cause this and to work numbers or find a pattern with other champions to narrow down the cause.

I'm not trying to be an ass to OP, I just want him to realize that a post formatted more like yours accomplishes far more, and for him not to dismiss facts. Which you aren't doing, you acknowledged them, then pointed out that it seems like something has still changed, specifically with mage supports. You pointed out a pattern we could trace or measure.

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

Realized I forgot to address a bit of your other comments. Sorry about assuming you were a jungler(although to be clear my assumption was that you have been playing it a lot recently, not that you mained it). That came from me reading a post similar to yours right before about a guy raging because he was doing bad at the role. And honestly I stopped reading your post after point 3. I saw the jungler section and assumed that if you were posting on it you played it a bit at least. Anyways, let me read the rest.

  1. This is a horrid exaggeration. Yes, a bad teammate does contribute to a loss this season more than last by what I'm seeing too (although my experience is skewed as I'm playing with lower MMR friends this year). But a single person or 2 people being able to completely negate a fed person, there are many things wrong with that statement and the sentiment around it. Firstly, no one should be able to 1v5 that's not fun for anyone except that one player. Your teammates don't get to do anything and your enemies can't do anything. That's why they got rid of that capability. Second, Riot has put so many things in the game to prevent that high of a level lead, that you shouldn't be able to have it happen often enough to be able to form any opinion on the matter. That being the case, in the one or two games you had where that did happen, how fed was the enemy(s) that killed you, and did they do it once or did they prevent you from doing anything as you insinuate happened from that point. Did they death-squad you, did your teammates group with you, did you group with them? Were they counters to your champion? As it stands your statements here have little more going for them than an emotional spur, and vague wording that could apply to many people's experiences whether it was what you are actually describing or not.

  2. Team play around epic monsters? Do you know what you're talking about? How is one person taking a long time to solo Herald while the rest of the team keeps/places vision and distracts the enemy any less teamwork than them working together to kill it? In fact I would say that takes a hell of a lot more coordination. And how can you say it adds to the snowballing of the game? Have you read through all the changes to epic monsters and calculated out the numbers each change did, or at least look at whether each was a buff/nerf to towers and damage then compiled them to determine if it was a net buff/nerf? I did, and even I didn't get it right. I forgot things like minion aggro changes, movement speed changes, attack speed changes, jungle camp buffs. It's too much for anyone to keep track of unless you were there looking at direct data the entire way, through every change or if you have compiled data readily accessible on game times and damage from those times. And no player does, only SOME of Riot's employees do. And some of the changes made with epic monsters fixed serious and specific problems to League. We would be lying if we didn't acknowledge that as well. For instance, red buff was made to hurt towers and AP ratios to autos on towers added to prevent games from lasting consistently to level 18, full build, long sieges. Dragons were changed so that that each dragon didn't become exponentially more valuable the more you already had, and so that it would actually help behind teams.

  3. ADCs aren't abusing Black Cleaver right now, and it's still largely chosen by melee champions, what do you see that's wrong with it right now?

  4. I don't think you understand the jungle meta very well. What that would do is turn it back to a farm levels meta playstyle for junglers. In past season metas it has been shown that if you over insensitive farming jungle over ganking, ganks don't happen and the game becomes very slow-paced. This would also completely kill split-pushing junglers (which is generally a melee strat, and most junglers are fighters). Making epic monsters give more XP is putting too much power on a single objective, I would venture to sayit would cause a Waterwalking meta where most teamfights are around the epic monsters.

Your post isn't a proper discussion, a proper discussion isn't going to be saying things like point 3, it would say: I believe damage is too high, take Kog'maw for example... It would cover your biases, it wouldn't have the tone of a 20 year old man mildly yelling at his computer as he loses a game. There would be facts to support your statements and suggestions. And you would have researched at least a bit to see if anything you are saying is straight up false.

This is a proper discussion: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/F74LmzO3-lets-talk-about-everyones-favorite-demacian-to-forget-quinn

Mob Piru3 votes

instead of forcing plays, look for opportunities to make a play that has a high success rate.

if ur a jungler and top lane blew his sums and is pushed up with no wards.

Ganking that lane isnt forcing a play its making a smart play.

Your laner just use his strong trading ability to farm its now on CD. Now would be a nice time to force a trade which u know u should win because he cant hit u back

Brain Errör 40411 votes

I'm not talking about simple minimalist chances. I'm talking about overall gameplay. For instance, this happens more often than not:

  1. Your top laner dies before you secure your second buff/get level 3. Or, assuming you start top side, you bot lanes dies (or is too low) before you secure your second buff/get level 3.

  2. Your laner is playing too safe for you to abuse them for anything that they're doing. Subsequently, your laner is shoving too hard and soft/hard counters you. Yet, your jungler is struggling trying to clear camps.

  3. Your bot lane is in a bad position. Your TP is up. Most players will forego their own needs, TP bot and try to prevent a disastrous outcome. Your laner doesn't follow up and shoves to your tower (assuming top lane). You bail bot out, but it was a force TP and you lose your tower.

  4. Your jungler is being counter jungled/invaded out the wazoo. You forego farm to help him so he doesn't fall behind because he'll end up next to useless if it happens. You die in the process since your laner has a better 2v2/early game power anyways. Or maybe the enemy junglers does.

These are the things I'm talking about. Or maybe you're playing a lane, all of your teammates are dying. You have no choice but to force something or the game is over anyways. There's too much risk in this game and not enough payout. Especially if you are, in fact, the overall better player than half the team and the enemy team.

Mob Piru5 votes

IDk man i think ur just thinking to much into it.

try pinging them and say hey let them push up so i can gank him. No one is going to say no to a gank lol.

Bot lane just got a kill? or they lane just backed? ping bot to come to dragon and take it.

U have to work around these people and stop expecting them to know how to play the game.

KnifeCat3 votes

This post is dead on, if only Rito would read this!

Kveldolf1 votes

No kidding this post is absolutely on point!

Elkington2 votes

I completely agree, especially for junglers. There is way too much pressure to secure an early lead through ganking, because generally the early game decides everything now. The only exception to this if your comp is vastly inferior to the opponent's for some reason.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyu Is My Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kEcAZ6mz,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-29T16:27:41.128+0000)

Honestly, the way you have the game set up is actually detrimental to overall game health. I get you wanted to force this whole, "You should be able to work together as a team if you want to move up" mentality, but this is actual garbage right now. I hate losing games the way I do as it stands. People like to say things like, "don't feed and I'll carry". I use to be able to stand by those words. I use to feel like I had a chance to make a comeback if I took the game slow and planned out what I wanted to do.

Right now, I feel FORCED to have to FORCE plays in order to come out on top. If my forced plays work out, I win. If they fail, I lose. That's what this game comes down to right now. Obviously, there will be those one offs, but those are few and far between. Riot, honestly, you really need to reel back. And I mean REEL back on A LOT of things. Here are things I think need to be addressed:

I'm with you on this, been feeling this way a lot too. You see this with Nasus and other scaling characters, now you MUST deal with them or fail trying, otherwise they just scale and there's nothing you can do about it.

1: Constant buffing. Stop. STOP -- suggestion:

- QoL changes. LOTS of them. Kit adjustments. Power shifting. You don't need to raise DAMAGE to make champs good again. Start tuning EVERYTHING down

Yep I agree, tuning and power shifts instead of buffs.

2: Shields/Heals - Duration too long/up too often

  • We have adequate enough ways to deal with heals, but there has to be a way to start either dealing with shields or lower the duration of them and have more skill expression when using them. Well timed shields should come with benefits and mistimed shields should have more sever punishments

I think that low cooldown and common heal/sustain abilities should do less and in return, effects like Grievous Wounds should be toned down a bit. This would help sustain based characters function better without being hard-countered (looking at Vladimir, Soraka, Fiora, and Aatrox).

3: Obviously, damage. Tone it down, nothing else to say here

Completely agree.

4: Held back by your weakest team member and inability to play around your strongest.

  • What this basically means, is that the ability to solo carry is out the window. Honestly, it's time to stop forcing these snooze fests in soloQue. Your game only works slightly in competitive as it stands and soloQ is a mess. Your weakest team member, especially if they lack any kind of utility, can cost you the game. This has always been the case, but not as much as it is this season. With proper rotations, wave managements, picks and split pushing, you could cover for the weakness any of your allies had. Being 3-4 levels above an entire team was enough to practically solo carry and almost 1v5. Now, 1-2 people depending on kits is enough to shut down a person 3-4 levels higher. This is actually atrocious. People should be rewarded appropriately for playing the map right. I get you may HATE one person turning the tide of a battle, but I much rather get stomped by one person than an entire team. Or LOSE because one person on my team basically isn't up to par.

I agree that losing the game due to one ally being the weakest link is a super frustrating experience. I don't know what would be a good way to fix it though.

5: Highlight objective focus.

  • League doesn't have enough of a focus on objectives. This will counteract my point of 4, but it's also what you SHOULD'VE done in the first place. Objectives, such as dragon/herald baron should NOT be soloable. At almost any point in the game, these objectives should require at minimum THREE members to secure. Any less makes them too EASY, doesn't advocate team play and makes it neigh impossible for proper set up and preparation. These are things that should be looked at and offer better, TEMPORARY bonuses. I think permanent boosts from dragons are unhealthy for gameplay and have way too much invisible power in the game. It was a nice attempt at diversifying gameplay, but at the moment it's not accomplishing any tasks. Just making games more snowbally than they need to be and add unneeded calculations into equations we shouldn't even have to have. Winning these objectives should provide beneficial boosts to allow teams to secure other adjacent objectives if they PLAY the MAP properly. This means, you don't just get a lead and think you can set back and enjoy the free stomp.

I believe this adds a more HEALTHY form of urgency to the game, while advocating teamwork and still incorporating enough strategy so that league evolves from the slapstick that it is today into the great game we use to have.

On the subject of dragons, I think that having a buff that the team gets to keep wouldn't be so bad if it just had downtime. Instead of getting flat damage boosts against turrets or % AD/AP increased, players should be given special effects that they can trigger by fulfilling special requirements and that would then go on cooldown.

For example Fire drake could allow members of the team to apply stacks of embers to enemies they damage, reaching a certain number of stacks could trigger a DoT or debuff effect that applies for a short duration, having some sort cool effect like Grievous wounds, reduced resistances, the ability to spread stacks of embers to nearby enemies, or other useful effects (obviously not all at once, I'm just suggesting different possible options).

And mountain drake could allow you to do something similar, applying stacks of some sort to the turret on damaging it, perhaps being limited by making the stacks go away if you damage enemies near the turret before procing the stacks' limit and triggering their effect. Effects that could work might be reduced attack speed for the tower, or reduced damage from it, etc.

6: Item restrictions.

  • Look, I get it. You love the diversity and freedom of choice you "think" you give players. This was great for league back when you had less. But as it stands, you have too many champions. I'm not say that this is a BAD thing, but you WILL not and WILL NEVER balance this game how you may think you will if you don't start locking out certain items that ranged users can abuse. Gnar and urgot being the exception, I'm sure you can find a pretty easy workaround for that. But Riot, honestly, you need to stop being hard headed about this. Black clever has gotten gutted thanks to ranged champs, and honestly the easiest work around for it would be to make an adc alternative that offers the armor shred bonuses that doesn't give health and get abused. You want more diversity and item choices, restricting items is actually your stepping stone.

I wholeheartedly agree, items need to be restricted more in order to make the game more balanceable and fair. Bruisers and Supports shouldn't suffer from nerfs to their items when everyone else starts abusing those items.

7: Jungler impact.

  • I don't want to say that junglers have the biggest impact, but honestly that impact is TOO big for top lane. I can't play aggro top lane at the cost of getting absolutely ravaged by the jungler. Yes, top lane is in a terrible spot. Yes, I main top lane. Yes, I'm now complaining about top, but that's not what this thread is about. I specifically avoided this topic, but I just had to get this out. Here's what I suggest: having a jungle item cuts exp in half for lane minions and increases exp gained from jungle monsters and epic monsters. Getting major objectives such as dragon/hearld/baron gives an added exp bonus for junglers (remember, TEMPORARY bonuses. This can either be flat exp gained or a buff for bigger gains for a time limit). This further increases the need to focus objectives, taking away early game jungle power (ganking at the cost of levels) and enforces a more healthy style of play. But, this has some drawbacks as it benefits farm heavy junglers like Lee and Shyv too much, so some tweaking is in need.

Additional XP for junglers when doing jungle monsters and lower XP when doing lane minions is a very interesting idea. I don't have an opinion one way or the other but I agree that it would work effectively towards your intended goal of reducing jungler impact in lanes.

That's basically all I have for now. I'm probably renowned on this boards for complaining too much, but since Riot and everyone else wants PROPER discussions with some suggestions, I thought I'd chip in my own 2 cents.

This was some good 2 cents. Props for thinking everything through and outlining your frustrations effectively. This was well written and much better for the boards than a lot of the usual posts that people make.

DNFVixen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyu Is My Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kEcAZ6mz,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-29T16:27:41.128+0000)

Honestly, the way you have the game set up is actually detrimental to overall game health. I get you wanted to force this whole, "You should be able to work together as a team if you want to move up" mentality, but this is actual garbage right now. I hate losing games the way I do as it stands. People like to say things like, "don't feed and I'll carry". I used to be able to stand by those words. I use to feel like I had a chance to make a comeback if I took the game slow and planned out what I wanted to do.

Right now, I feel FORCED to have to FORCE plays in order to come out on top. If my forced plays work out, I win. If they fail, I lose. That's what this game comes down to right now. Obviously, there will be those one offs, but those are few and far between. Riot, honestly, you really need to reel back. And I mean REEL back on A LOT of things. Here are things I think need to be addressed:

1: Constant buffing. Stop. STOP -- suggestion:

- QoL changes. LOTS of them. Kit adjustments. Power shifting. You don't need to raise DAMAGE to make champs good again. Start tuning EVERYTHING down

2: Shields/Heals - Duration too long/up too often

  • We have adequate enough ways to deal with heals, but there has to be a way to start either dealing with shields or lower the duration of them and have more skill expression when using them. Well timed shields should come with benefits and mistimed shields should have more sever punishments

3: Obviously, damage. Tone it down, nothing else to say here

4: Held back by your weakest team member and inability to play around your strongest.

  • What this basically means, is that the ability to solo carry is out the window. Honestly, it's time to stop forcing these snooze fests in soloQue. Your game only works slightly in competitive as it stands and soloQ is a mess. Your weakest team member, especially if they lack any kind of utility, can cost you the game. This has always been the case, but not as much as it is this season. With proper rotations, wave managements, picks and split pushing, you could cover for the weakness any of your allies had. Being 3-4 levels above an entire team was enough to practically solo carry and almost 1v5. Now, 1-2 people depending on kits is enough to shut down a person 3-4 levels higher. This is actually atrocious. People should be rewarded appropriately for playing the map right. I get you may HATE one person turning the tide of a battle, but I much rather get stomped by one person than an entire team. Or LOSE because one person on my team basically isn't up to par.

5: Highlight objective focus.

  • League doesn't have enough of a focus on objectives. This will counteract my point of 4, but it's also what you SHOULD'VE done in the first place. Objectives, such as dragon/herald baron should NOT be soloable. At almost any point in the game, these objectives should require at minimum THREE members to secure. Any less makes them too EASY, doesn't advocate team play and makes it neigh impossible for proper set up and preparation. These are things that should be looked at and offer better, TEMPORARY bonuses. I think permanent boosts from dragons are unhealthy for gameplay and have way too much invisible power in the game. It was a nice attempt at diversifying gameplay, but at the moment it's not accomplishing any tasks. Just making games more snowbally than they need to be and add unneeded calculations into equations we shouldn't even have to have. Winning these objectives should provide beneficial boosts to allow teams to secure other adjacent objectives if they PLAY the MAP properly. This means, you don't just get a lead and think you can set back and enjoy the free stomp.

I believe this adds a more HEALTHY form of urgency to the game, while advocating teamwork and still incorporating enough strategy so that league evolves from the slapstick that it is today into the great game we use to have.

6: Item restrictions.

  • Look, I get it. You love the diversity and freedom of choice you "think" you give players. This was great for league back when you had less. But as it stands, you have too many champions. I'm not say that this is a BAD thing, but you WILL not and WILL NEVER balance this game how you may think you will if you don't start locking out certain items that ranged users can abuse. Gnar and urgot being the exception, I'm sure you can find a pretty easy workaround for that. But Riot, honestly, you need to stop being hard headed about this. Black clever has gotten gutted thanks to ranged champs, and honestly the easiest work around for it would be to make an adc alternative that offers the armor shred bonuses that doesn't give health and get abused. You want more diversity and item choices, restricting items is actually your stepping stone.

7: Jungler impact.

  • I don't want to say that junglers have the biggest impact, but honestly that impact is TOO big for top lane. I can't play aggro top lane at the cost of getting absolutely ravaged by the jungler. Yes, top lane is in a terrible spot. Yes, I main top lane. Yes, I'm now complaining about top, but that's not what this thread is about. I specifically avoided this topic, but I just had to get this out. Here's what I suggest: having a jungle item cuts exp in half for lane minions and increases exp gained from jungle monsters and epic monsters. Getting major objectives such as dragon/hearld/baron gives an added exp bonus for junglers (remember, TEMPORARY bonuses. This can either be flat exp gained or a buff for bigger gains for a time limit). This further increases the need to focus objectives, taking away early game jungle power (ganking at the cost of levels) and enforces a more healthy style of play. But, this has some drawbacks as it benefits farm heavy junglers like Lee and Shyv too much, so some tweaking is in need.

That's basically all I have for now. I'm probably renowned on this boards for complaining too much, but since Riot and everyone else wants PROPER discussions with some suggestions, I thought I'd chip in my own 2 cents.

You forgot leathality XD but i agree with your post 100%!!! Leathality is also a HUUUUGE part of the problem, also turrets XD

SpiritOfOdysseus1 votes

I witness this In game while playing ARAM. The only way for us to win usually is by me being hyperagressive no matter who I'm playing. Sometimes ill do great, other times I go 0/6. But one thing stands out, I win my games.

And if my team doesn't follow up? Well... I lose my games :D

Wraith Senna1 votes

did someone say urgot?

Ifneth1 votes

Lots of great advice here.

-Forcing a play is a choice. You do it when you have run out of time or options to find a good play and must take one that’s just not great or lose even more than you would if you lost the play; e.g., the enemy team has Baron and is diving your inhibitor turret.

-Carrying should be hard but doable. You need about a 1k good lead to start running the game. Start looking to dive, roam, or take objectives.

-Chill. Your post sounds less like an argument and more like a list of frustrations. It’s OK to feel frustrated, and you don’t have to pretend otherwise. But it is misleading and rude to do so. Also, losing your cool loses games.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

It's both an argument and a list of frustration. What I've posted here has already been discussed over various forms. Diving/roaming are all risky plays with little reward even if successful. You have to do those in succession to actual get anything of value in this game. And while I am frustrating, none of the information I provided is MISLEADING. As this is a discussion, these are ISSUES at hand and my OPINION on how to deal with said issues.

Ifneth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyu Is My Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kEcAZ6mz,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-01-29T23:49:02.526+0000)

It's both an argument and a list of frustration. What I've posted here has already been discussed over various forms. Diving/roaming are all risky plays with little reward even if successful. You have to do those in succession to actual get anything of value in this game. And while I am frustrating, none of the information I provided is MISLEADING. As this is a discussion, these are ISSUES at hand and my OPINION on how to deal with said issues.

Again with the caps. Use italics to emphasize, please, or you’ll sound like you’re shouting.

With regard to diving and roaming in particular, they do not have to be risky or low-reward, but safe and rewarding dives and roams need set-up. When diving, you need everything you would need for a gank, in addition to extra health or armor for the turret. It also helps to have the minions crashed against the turret so you can walk under without immediately taking aggro. Afterward, push the wave to the tower if it’s not already there, ward the nearest jungle path, and start taking the turret. Once you have one item finished, you should be able to take it 100-0 if the enemy jungler is on the other side of the map.

Roams are like ganks and may involve dives, but they go from lane to lane. Push the wave under your opponent’s turret and then immediately roam to another lane. It doesn’t matter if anyone knows. If the enemy laner does not back off, then gank; if they do, then ward the enemy jungle and take scuttle-crab. Return to lane just as the wave returns to your turret, and you will miss very little gold or experience.

In the larger macro game, roams and dives generate ‘pressure,’ which your team can exploit with a little coordination. If the enemy jungler ganks you in the top lane when you roam or dive, then ping your jungler to immediately solo dragon; bot, Rift Herald. Even if the jungler can’t, then he can ward these objectives and take their scuttle-crab to prepare them. Or, he can just gank the opposite lane.

And yes, it will take more than one roam or dive to snowball a game, but that’s fair. The enemy team deserves more than one chance to turn things around.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

*used to

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Under which part? If I have a mistake somewhere, point it out so I can fix, thanks. :)

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

1st paragraph. It's actually "used to" not "use to"

Longtowel1 votes

I feel like it is better for the game to feel fast and rushed rather than sluggish. Personally I don't mind the damage that is going around now, I don't think its too high. Higher damage for certain roles makes them higher priority targets and you need to kill them. Without this kind of damage, you just don't get that level of urgency.

Speaking of which, the Forced plays you talk about, I certainly feel it. You feel like you really need to make this play otherwise you cannot carry the game, and you will lose. That is something I have experienced as well. But more often is about making ALL the plays within your capacity. You don't want to be forcing a gank mid onto their fed Ahri just because it 'theoretically' works. I don't do this very well and I often go for overly ambitious plays that often costs me more than it gains. But in some games where I kept a clear mind and made the right calls, I was able to have a very high success rate in my plays which I think is more important than making plays all the time.

Sometimes the best play you can make at a given moment could just be farming.

In terms of this weak teammate issue, yeah, that's a big issue for me as well. But I understand that if I get a game where our top mid and bot all go 0/3 by 5 minutes, I'm probably not going to win the game. That's more of an issue with the Matchmaking system and luck rather than an issue with game design. And in terms of having one person basically carry an entire game, that's not supposed to happen too easily. I've had games where I go 24/2/1 and basically win the game all by myself, and I've had games where the enemy mid is 17/1/3 by 20 minutes and win the game. But that's rare, and it is also an issue with Matchmaking, not game design. Unless your skill level is way above your division, which a lot of people believe they are, you shouldn't be able to consistently do that kind of carry.

Point 4 and 5 is kind of contradictory, since in point 4, you want people to snowball a lot harder and 1v5, while in point 5 you complain about dragons allowing snowballs to happen.

Item restrictions I can understand, but overall I think every item is still doing what it is supposed to do, I haven't had too much issues with items.

But in terms of Jungler impact, of course junglers are supposed to have a big impact not only in toplane, but all lanes. That's technically their job! They don't have a lane, they can't win lane in that sense. They exist to assist the team wherever they see fit. If you feel like you can't play aggro because the jungler is too much of a threat when you do, that's how its supposed to be. If you are playing a passive farming top lane like Nasus, if the jungler cannot influence top lane like they do, what's going to stop them from being stomped by the enemy if they pick say Renekton or Darius?

You both have junglers. It is up to you to coordinate with your own junglers to have counter ganks and have them support you if you are going aggresive.

I have spent a lot of time over the 4 or so years of playing league playing each position in league, and I feel like that all of the elements in the game still works relatively well, and certainly doesn't feel broken to me.

Brain Errör 4042 votes

Yeah, but in pro play overall the game, when played at it's maximum efficiency, IS slow and sluggish. This year's pro play has seen an INCREASE in game time and a DECREASE in game time is only applicable to soloQ.

The reason I listed points 4 and 5 is to say the way snowball is inherently added to the game is unhealthy. There's nothing wrong with snowballing if you have it in a healthy enough way for it to feel fair and balanced. I already said my point 5 would counteract point 4 as stated above. The idea here to to introduce a more healthy snowball that doesn't turn into a complete stat check late game. Season 5 was a perfect example of how you can have high damage to take out priority champs without it being too unhealthy. ADCs had to position well and rely on teammates to properly peel assassins so they didn't get instagibbed. But dragons for gold was a little underwhelming, so I got the need for change.

As an ADC player, I can see how that feels unfair. But now the shoes on the other foot. You get instagibbed by adcs and there's no amount of peel or correct positioning to fix that. If assassins don't try to kill an adc, then whose going to? Your ADC is forced to sit back peeling the enemy assassins/tank. With the way supports are set up now, they just have too much say in the matter and too many fall back options. There should be a finite amount of things you can do and have to wait for, but this game just lets you spam everything with no consequence.

I just played a game where I tried to kill an enemy Vayne, and she literally killed me in 4 shots before I could finish my entire combo as zed. I have to play that matchup so bloody scary that I can't sit in her auto range and literally try for lucky shurikens to outplay her as zed since my damage is "delayed". But there's nothing "sustained" about adcs damage. It's more like taking a mac truck hit one after the other. This is inherently flawed gameplay design as league was suppose to be closer to a rock-paper-scissor game which I had absolutely no problem with. Plus part, if you're good enough, you can play around it and still beat scissors with paper.

Now, it's all about who has more frontloaded damage than anything else and I just feel like it's lacking in the game. As with junglers, how will you STOP a Nasus from farming up if the enemy jungler baby sits up, stays up in exp and levels to his counterpart as WELL as you? That makes NO sense and should not be allowed. And to follow up on that, some times junglers simply won't be on par with each other. As with other laners. Some times people will simply be better than you. That's just the way the game works. However, being unable to work around the fact that your jungler < their jungler or their bot laner > your bot laner just makes the game an overall frustrating experience. The game may be faster pace, but it's at the cost of fun. Which this game simply isn't at the moment.

Longtowel2 votes

Yeah I feel you.

What rank are you by the way? I'm in Silver but I always feel like the experience in Ranked may be a little more cohesive once I get into Gold, since people would have more of an idea what they are doing.

RIght now, in lower Elo, early game is so crucial, its about who gets to control the flow of the game. As a jungler, if I can control the map I can force the enemy lanes behind. The late game teamfights are more about the accumulation of everything up to that point. And if say a Vayne managed to stay relevant up to that point then she has already done her part and is very likely to win.

As hard as it is to do, and as much as it frustrates me, everything that happens from minute 1 to minute 50 all contribute to the final result, not just the fights that occur.

I believe that right now, there is a counter strategy to every single situation that can happen in game, and when executed correctly, you would always have a good shot. The perfect counter strategy for Vayne is very simply making sure that she is never ahead and when the teamfight comes around she is always a few items down. Her early game weaknesses gives you a window to do that.

It's about playing the long game, to take into account all stages and all elements of every game, and making rational decisions at every turn and never using the exact same strategy twice. Of course doing that is really hard, but if you try to do it every game, it takes away much of frustration, at least for me.

There will be games that you simply aren't good enough to carry, just like how Challengers can lose games in Gold.

I'm just going to keep going at it, keep improving my skills, one area at a time, and I know for a fact that if I keep doing this, I won't be in S3 by the time the season closes.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

I'm plat and I feel like it's the same across all elos. The best way to play right now is to just play to improve and wait for balance changes to kick in.

GodlyBane1 votes

TLDR????

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Thumbs up for 3 for sure; though in number 5, I'd say they should just make a dealthmatch map so they can put more focus on the objectives of the rift, kind of like how they made aram to ignore the jungle but still have a base to take. As for number 6, just black cleaver, there's a handful of items that were nerfed because they were abused by unintended classes, not even counting the double standards from removed/added items. Still agree that the game is more about flaunting spectacle than good gameplay, sadly the strategy has been repeatedly tossed to the wayside.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Yeah, black clever was just an all rounder for an example. I didn't bring it up for people to think, "Oh, black clever is the only offender".

As for a deathmatch mode, Idk... I don't think the game is properly balanced around plain ol' deathmatch. But more gamemodes like the assassin on (forgot the name) with less stress on "objectives" would definitely be nice. As long as they keep the limited champ pool.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Ah ok. Yeah I doubt deathmatch would be balanced, but riot has made changes to champions based on which game mode they're in; and such an alternative would help deter them from tacking on damage to everything in the rift setting.

Kveldolf1 votes

I need to chip in my 2 cents here, with the new divisions that have come out I am not bronze 4 in top mid and jg. My last placement game we had a 30 kill advantage on a team which had less then 10 kills total. Our Kaisa was 5 and 0 Garen 8 and 0. Unstoppable. We pushed into their base destroyed nexus towers and then Aatrox and garen left. With out the help the rest of us died and they help on to the game. We are then unable to win even with our massive e lead because Aatrox doesn't know what hes doing and just holds a lane. In the end we lose. I've never until now played a game where we stomped so hard.... We lost. We lost the entire game because Aatrox was new to the ranked game style. That's it.

How can even that much of a lead be lost because of one player??? Why do we need these massive systems and changes to damage on champs all the time when there will always be one who is better then another? Sure new items and champions change the meta, they should. the game is so team based that the"solo/duo" Que is just a joke for people who don't have the friends to play with them. You are judged for wining or losing not how good you actually are. I'm hardstuck low elo and I climbed from b5 to s4 in season 8 because I found a way to solo carry my entire team to victory and i had to do that for every win I got. Now that opportunity is gone. I can no longer go up in ranks because I cant carry my whole team anymore even with 2 other people that are ahead. this isn't a broken champ issue. this is a flawed system.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A SOLO?DUO SYSTEM MAKE IT ACTUALLY BASED ON YOUR SOLO AND DUO SKILL.

 I love this game so much and i have so much fun playing it. I'm SO tired of having to play to play with people who cant ward properly or look at the mini map just because I am now unable to carry all of them to the next elo with me.

Riot I'm begging you please find a way to REWARD players based on their efforts and skill. because you guys haven't proven able to make a system able to let people win of their own merit. I don't mean this as a roast or to be mean its just the truth the old system where one player can win a game while not perfect is a good one. People who are good enough to do that deserve to be moved into the next tier and those who get lifted up and aren't that good will fall back down the ladder. Just let players climb without a miracle perfect team that can all do their jobs and don't keep fighting when they are behind.

 I don't know much about all this but my ranked experience with this game over the past 4 years has always been like this," find the broken champ, snowball, hope you can kill the enemy and push for victory with a 5+ kill lead not including other teammates, die cause your team wont help. try to push, fail."

the only times I win are when my team backs me and and believe me i'm not charismatic. When trying to get anyone to group or push i might as well be running up hill with my arms. WHEN they decide to we've lost most of our chances to win and all I can do is watch them float away because as a solo player I will never be able to win myself in the current meta with everything so team focused, However; I like the team aspect its fun and rewarding.

BUT! you have NO and I mean NO room or rewards for players who are good on their own. WE can't win even if we carry. We can only watch opportunity after opportunity pass us by and wait for our team to do the right thing by accident.

There's my rant. The system wont be great until we can each be rewarded for our own efforts and do even better with a team effort.

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