Scaling Crowd Control

ThurgotOfThunder·Feb 12, 2018·57 votes·2,499 views

How come more stuns don't work like Xerath's? He's a long range artillery mage who is actively punished if someone manages to break his safety net by his stun duration being reduced the closer you are to him. Why can't Zoe's bubble be the same? Or Morgana's Q? It seems like a good idea to reward (especially immobile) melee champs for getting where they need to go without punishing mages or supports for doing a good job and keeping them faaaaar away.

Edit: This could also improve bodyblocking to feel so much better. If your 6K hp Sion steps into that Brand stun to protect your adc from instadying, he did a great job and should be rewarded.

61 Comments

BobaFlautistFeb 12, 201825 votes

Morgan's Q has just over half the missile speed or Xerath's E (1200 to 2400), and without her ultimate up she is utterly dependant on landing a Q to do any damage. Xerath also has his Q on a much shorter cooldown than any of her abilities, has stronger (if more costly in Mana waveclear), and is mostly longer range than Morgana (just her Q has slightly longer range than his E and his uncharged Q is fairly short range). In general, while Morgana's Q is relatively long range, her ultimate makes it clear she is supposed to play mich further up than someone like Xerath.

Zoe - I haven't played Zoe, so I can't really speak intelligently about her.

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 12, 20186 votes

I'm not saying if morgana lands a melee range Q it doesn't snare you, but it probably doesn't need to last for 3 seconds, right? Shouldn't you be rewarded for closing the gap rather than punished for making it impossible for her to miss you?

BobaFlautistFeb 12, 201816 votes

It's not impossible for Morgana to miss you as long as you don't run in a straight line at her. And no, you're already rewarded for closing the gap by the fact that you aren't sitting in her W - unless you think you should be rewarded for pressing a button that jumps you to an enemy when all their abilities are up...?

Morgana has basically nothing if you juke her incredibly slow Q. If she landed her Q, she won, you lost. If she didn't, you can basically go to town on her. She's immobile, and has no guaranteed damage beyond auto-attack unless her ult is up. 3 of the 4 abilities in her kit are hard countered by having literally any dash, so if you can't be bothered to hold your dash to avoid at least one ability. I don't know what you should be rewarded for.

I know it feels really long and unfair, but try playing Morgana against like Yasuo or Fizz or Zed - she doesn't lose, per say, but it's a goddamn pain in the ass.

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 12, 20183 votes

I'm saying if you're playing something like Xin, say, your only option to fight a Morgana is hope she's stupid and throws a max range Q at you, dodge it, and engage. You can't jump her, because it doesn't matter how fast you are, she'll click Q and drop her puddle on you and walk away for 3 seconds.

If a Yasuo dashed onto Morgana, he's going to get snared, puddled, and she'll walk away. Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't cc you if you're close to her, but I think melee champs should be rewarded, and ranged champs subsequently punished, for outplaying their safety net or getting onto them before they can cc you from half the screen away. Their reward for dropping their cc on you from low orbit is that it lasts the full duration, your reward for making that not happen is that it doesn't last the full duration.

Also, this isn't specifically about Morgana, she's just an example.

BobaFlautistFeb 12, 201813 votes

I understand where you're coming from. My contention is that Morgana, specifically, is a bad example. I think ranged champions with powerful mobility and powerful knockbacks ( Tristana Vayne Azir ) are a far more egregious problem.

I was focusing on Morgana because I have enough familiarity playing as her to comment, but I don't hate the idea as a whole - I just think it doesn't make sense on specifically Morgana.

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 12, 20182 votes

I agree, especially with those three. Just seeing their pictures together makes me want to eat glass. And it wouldn't have to be all skillshot cc's, just some of them. It only exists in a couple examples, but it does exist, so clearly someone at Riot thought about it for Xerath.

Attticus FinchFeb 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If a Yasuo dashed onto Morgana, he's going to get snared, puddled, and she'll walk away.

So? Why is this a problem? Why is it a problem that Xin Zhao cannot easily stick to her? She's not a carry, it's not like you have to kill her quickly or else she'll wipe your team.

Your concerns are lacking a logical premises.

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 13, 20182 votes

Again, Morgana was one example among many possible changes. I didn't say every skillshot cc MUST BE CHANGED, but that it as a mechanic is underused.

Attticus FinchFeb 13, 20182 votes

My points about Morgana apply to most champions. Youre arguing that CC/self-peel should be nerfed (essentially) but you havent provided any reasons as to why.

Let me help you: I claim that CC as it currently exists in the game is fine and healthy. Your evidence to the contrary is...?

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 13, 20182 votes

I mean, self-peel is a problem for a lot of classes. It's the reason Vayne and Tristana are so hard to balance, as well as why a lot of melee champs feel like garbage into most matchups. Self-peel would still exist, by the way, the idea is to make it less potent the closer your enemy is to you. Peel implies keeping people away from you. So keep them AWAY from you.

Attticus FinchFeb 13, 20183 votes

Self-peel is an issue on champions like Vayne and Tristana because they both shit out damage and so if you don't shut them down quickly they'll wreck your team. Ergo the issue isn't the existence of self-peel, rather that certain ADCs have overloaded kits that give them zero weaknesses and allow them to be more independent then they should be.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Feb 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k3ovzlI6,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-13T00:49:20.782+0000)

My points about Morgana apply to most champions. Youre arguing that CC/self-peel should be nerfed (essentially) but you havent provided any reasons as to why.

Let me help you: I claim that CC as it currently exists in the game is fine and healthy. Your evidence to the contrary is...?

1 morg q or leo combo is just death because they last so long, and both are way to easy to land.

RainbowIceeFeb 13, 20182 votes

you just spam shit with Zoe till you hit someone and they'll either die or have to go back

BarkleyFeb 13, 20182 votes

Nobody speaks intelligently about Zoe. Nobody.

Ionian VulpixFeb 12, 201815 votes

I'm against the idea because not every mage has the range or projectile speed of Xerath. It may benefit tanks more, but it'll make mages unplayable against assassins.

Take Lux against a Zed. If Zed ults her, Lux can then throw her Q behind her to root him, which is her outplay potential. It would not be fair whatsoever if Zed was rooted for a very short time because he screwed up and went in while she had her CC up. Mages would literally not be able to save themselves.

KrigjerFeb 13, 20181 votes

Mages would literally not be able to save themselves.

This. The whole point of the CC is to have some counterplay to get a melee off you if they get that close.

Zero Skill TankFeb 13, 20181 votes

Whenever proposal to make CC range-dependant comes up, Zed is literally THE reason it can never be implemented. He can cover almost 1300 units in a way you can't really prevent, as long as he exists mages will absolutely need to have their CC equally effective in short range, only possible exception being champs like Xerath , who can easily farm from further than that (and even he can only barely do so, with 1400 max range on Q).

Hauling AsheFeb 12, 201814 votes

Ashe R also works like this. That's why it's not always a dumb idea to take a shot from "downtown", and why it can be a waste to ult in an escape attempt when you should just eat it and save your cooldown.

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 12, 20186 votes

Good call, I don't know why I didn't think of Ashe for an example.

xelakerFeb 12, 20181 votes

It drives me mad when ashe blows her arrow at point blank range for that dinky stun when she's 100% dead anyways

Hauling AsheFeb 12, 20188 votes

Sometimes it buys you enough time to break even or even come out ahead (with a little luck) on a tower dive, though.

xelakerFeb 13, 20182 votes

I'm taking deep undercover ashe gets caught by a 5 man hurt patrol in the enemy jung trying to steal red.

ampheonFeb 13, 20181 votes

I chuckled.

Jo0oFeb 12, 20185 votes

I like this.

Dr DogFeb 12, 20184 votes

ive thought the same hing for a long time, same with more point and click cc spells being more like Ryze w with a low cd so it isnt completely bull shit like lulus poly

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 12, 201812 votes

I think point-click cc is cancer to a huge majority of melee champs, but also totally necessary to be able to even deal with things like Vayne, Riven, or Yasuo.

GGLineaRFeb 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think point-click cc is cancer to a huge majority of melee champs, but also totally necessary to be able to even deal with things like Vayne, Riven, or Yasuo.

TwistedFate has it and still sucks unless you're against an idiot.

Jet SettFeb 13, 20181 votes

It doesn't suck, it just has counterplay loaded onto the opposite end of it; telegraphed during Pick a Card animation, then you see the selected card, then you have to be withing 500 units, then it clearly comes out and makes a distinct noise, then there's the travel time of the card to the enemy.

All this gives more than enough time to use an escape or avoid TF while it wears off.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Feb 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think point-click cc is cancer to a huge majority of melee champs, but also totally necessary to be able to even deal with things like Vayne, Riven, or Yasuo.

Aiming skillshots is hard xd :/

floppy1000Feb 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think point-click cc is cancer to a huge majority of melee champs, but also totally necessary to be able to even deal with things like Vayne, Riven, or Yasuo.

I actually think point and click CC is much better than line skill shot based CC, and here's why:

Point and click CC does not differentiate between a ranged opponent and a melee opponent. Both are going to get hit, which reduces the bias towards ranged champions. Of course, melee-ranged point and click CC (Leona Q, as an example) is still biased to ranged champions.
By contrast, line skill shot based CC is considerably more difficult to dodge as a melee champion compared to a range champion simply in virtue of having less reaction time to sidestep out of the way.

The best CC is either:

Ranged point and click. Reserved for less impactful CCs that are short and/or soft, and for ultimates, because they're ultimate.
Ground-targeted CC. Still interactive for both parties, but doesn't bias ranged champions.
Instant-travel pass-through line CC. Interactive for both parties, but doesn't bias ranged champions.

I still believe that LOL has a massive over-abundance on CC, with most champions having access to CC (most have hard CC, or it sure feels like it), and have high access to CDR to spam CC. Of most of the CC, most of it biases ranged champions, and makes it much harder for melees.

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 14, 20181 votes

Every game I have to play vs a Vayne or Yasuo I dream of having picked Maokai. Being able to not only lock them down FOR SURE, but also reposition them even slightly afterwards makes such a huge difference.

Overall, I think cc that is either telegraphed in an aoe, or somehow conditional (whether based on travel distance, tenacity, etc.) is healthiest. Don't punish the people that should be able, and want to, tank cc for their team by stunlocking them for 5 seconds while they're "Burst per second"-ed.

RottedApplesFeb 13, 20183 votes

i don't think this is a buy and large solution to every cc in the game. But it does make sense in more cases than it's currently used.

Troll for TrumpFeb 13, 20183 votes

Xerath's is because he's supposed to be specifically artillery-based, so it fits with him thematically. Morg isn't supposed to be long-range; her W has somewhat short range, and she needs to walk up to people for her ult, so the Q helps with that.

Zoe can't have it because she's supposed to be jumping in all over the place.

Xerath's E only works for other artillery type champs. Varus Ziggs etc.

CosnirakFeb 12, 20182 votes

I don't think you'd like the result as much as you think you would. This would be a nerf to those champions, thus requiring a buff elsewhere. In a couple cases maybe that champ is currently op and could just take a nerf to the chin, in a couple more maybe a slight shift in power is appropriate. But in some cases you might find the resulting champion bothers you even more.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 12, 20183 votes

The duration could be nerfed for short range but buffed for long range.

Example:

Morg Q now snares for 2 - 3.5s based on travel time, from 3s. Or Brand Q stuns for 1 - 2s based on travel time, from 1.5s.

CosnirakFeb 12, 20183 votes

That's a huge amount of variance considering her Q root already changes with spell rank. It's also overall still a nerf for Morgana as on average she'd be rooting for less time. Her Q is very slow and usually never hits anyone at max range unless they're already cced, not looking at their character, or couldn't see the Morgana. All of those cases are relatively rare.

This whole thing would drastically affect her ability to chain cc properly, which is already plenty difficult. The lives of Morgana players is hard enough as is, further complications to solve a non existent problem seems like a waste of time and effort.

The reason Xerath's stun works like it does is because it's pretty damn easy to hit, especially since he can often slow someone first with his W. And because his entire kit is designed around him trying to kill people from far away and making it difficult for them to get close without taking significant punish. Not all ccs are so easy to land. Not all kits are designed this way.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 13, 20183 votes

dude these are all examples no one is saying DO THIS TO MORG OR BRAND

CosnirakFeb 13, 20182 votes

The point still stands

The reason Xerath's stun works like it does is because it's pretty damn easy to hit, especially since he can often slow someone first with his W. And because his entire kit is designed around him trying to kill people from far away and making it difficult for them to get close without taking significant punish. Not all ccs are so easy to land. Not all kits are designed this way.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 13, 20182 votes

The point still stands

that this would be a way to balance champions out, again

these are all examples no one is saying DO THIS TO MORG OR BRAND

or to do this with EVERY ability, like how you are treating it. OP is simply saying, 'Why don't we balance out some champions this way?'

If you take Morg as an example maybe if you changed the snare to be based of distance, 1-3s instead of 3. A compensational buff could be to increase the projectile speed. And maybe tweak her ultimate and pool a little bit to create a style around this. AGAIN THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE.

REPEAT

these are all examples no one is saying DO THIS TO MORG

AGAIN

'Why don't we balance out some champions this way?'

NOT ALL SOME, maybe not any.

CosnirakFeb 13, 20183 votes

Why don't we balance out some champions this way?

Not all ccs are so easy to land. Not all kits are designed this way.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 13, 20181 votes

some

You

some

Know

some

What

some

Some

some

Means?

Can you comprehend that NO ONE said EVERY CC, BUT YOU.

CosnirakFeb 13, 20181 votes

Yes, it means the same thing as "not all" which I said in both sentences. I never said it shouldn't happen at all anywhere, reread this from my very first post in this thread in fact:

In a couple cases maybe that champ is currently op and could just take a nerf to the chin, in a couple more maybe a slight shift in power is appropriate. But in some cases you might find the resulting champion bothers you even more.

I explicitly said that in some cases a slight shift in power, which is what this change would be, is appropriate.

Also

NO ONE said EVERY CC, BUT YOU.

I never said every cc.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 13, 20181 votes

Not all ccs are so easy to land. Not all kits are designed this way.

K. x2.

Not all ccs are so easy to land. Not all kits are designed this way.

K. x3

So either you don't even know what you said or you don't know what you said.

Either way you don't know what you said.

CosnirakFeb 13, 20181 votes

Do you think "not all" means "not any" or "none?" Because it doesn't.

ampheonFeb 13, 20182 votes

I believe the primary reason Xerath's Scales in because he's an artillery mage an has the range to stay away from you, so you're rewarded for getting on him, and he's rewarded for not letting you get that close, that and his projectile speed is relatively fast (2300). Compare that to Lux who also has a long ranged CC, is supposed to stay far away from you, but it travels far slower (1200), which is why hers doesn't scale. Ziggs is also an artillery mage but his CC isn't a projectile.

No other mage has both CC and damage these two, with the exception of Zoe (who's projectile distance varies and has a delay on the CC so it it's less reliable self peel if you can't burst her in ~2 seconds).

Pika FoxFeb 13, 20182 votes

Zoe's E does technically punish her if the enemy is too close, as it takes 2.3 seconds for it to pop the CC. The slow isnt likely going to stop someone from jumping on your ass if theyre that close.

IfnethFeb 12, 20181 votes

That’s a really cool idea. Here are some questions:

Why would a crowd control spell be stronger the further it came from? The lore and game design would need a change to make this fact intuitive.
How would we keep the mage crowd control fantasy? Stopping a mighty Juggernaut or Vanguard during a skirmish or teamfight is part of why people play mages.
How would we adjust for unusual crowd control? Taliyah, for example, has a knockup rather than a root or stun.

ThurgotOfThunderFeb 12, 20186 votes

1- As it travels it picks up power? Really lore has nothing to do with CC impact at all. 2- Stop them where you're meant to stop them, waaaay out there away from your team instead of waiting until they're inside you to push Q and spam laugh while all their hard work is torn down. Land your cc at distance, receive gameplay fantasy. 3- I think boops and knockBACKS are fine, generally. They usually don't last for 3 seconds, and are necessary to be able to peel some champs, which is fine. Taliyah doesn't knock you into the air for 2 seconds like Alistar does, she pushes you, and you can move immediately after you land.

IfnethFeb 12, 20183 votes

Lore and gameplay should be consistent. For example, why would all snare spells of all champions pick up power? It’s pretty game-y. Also, CC duration is important for high elo and competitive play, where layering crowd control is important.
I see what you mean, but were crowd control spells to need distance to ‘charge up,’ they would become unreliable because mages would have to choose between landing a charged spell at a distance but having a high chance of missing, or landing an uncharged spell up close but having it do little. Also, once any diver would reach the backline, the mage would be helpless to stop them. The hard work of diving includes waiting for important defensive cooldowns like Morg Q.
All knock-backs are knock-ups with a displacement, and Alistar can stun you for two seconds only if you walk right into him. Only Morgana, whose whole kit is built around a slow but powerful snare, can root you for three seconds, and only at rank 5 of her dark binding. These champs are meant to disengage. You shouldn’t dive on them unless they’ve used their spells.