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Marksman Update

Muzét··4 votes·731 views

Hey. Hey you there! ~~Hey listen Hey listen Hey listen ~~ Thanks for clicking! I had this idea that was scratching my head and really wanted to develop it. So here I am ready to fire my idea about a Marksman Update.

** But why should they need it specially when they got one recently?** First, it's item stat changes rather then marksman's rework. It will emphasive the constant damage that can takedown objective without being able to burst squishy.

** But they're building full damage why shouldn't they be able to kill other squishy?** Because they're already killing tanks faster than any classes and taking down objectives. Being able to kill other squishy (Assassin / Mages) when they should be killed by them in a straight 1v1 and doing so faster than them shouldn't be possible except if ahead. Most Mages can't take down objectives like them and assassin don't have as much AS as they do.

But Assassins and Mages do have access to items that can help them with that. Yes they have access to those items but it isn't as much useful since they're standalone items item 3100 item 3115 Yup they synergize more or less well together but they're only on effective on rare cases. (like Diana ) Furthermore, it would alter their playstyle or wouldn't fit at all (Xerath or Annie) I won't talk too much about Assassins (since I'm mostly only playing Kayn) but picking AS over AD reduces drastically their burst and make their "counterplay" window even bigger. and we all know some Marksmen are way more assassins oriented just by building Marksman build (I'm looking at you Twitch Vayne )

** So what are you proposing ?** Hey that's exactly what I was waiting for! the changes are on the simple side. Most of my propositions won't have exact numbers - hope Riot won't grief me for that. Simply because I don't want my post to be depreciated cause people won't like the number they're seeing. Now let's get started.

** But you already did!** Hush.

No more Last Whisper itemline.

** You wot mate. Why you would do that? ** HEY Hold a sec don't downvote yet. Read me out till the end please.

Reduced critical strike damage to 150%. Critical strike now ignore 40% Bonus Armor.

item 3153 item 3031 item 3072 item 3508 item 3139 gets reduced AD. But Increase Attack Speed Cap a bit.

To emphasize the constant middle damage output rather than high damage output that looks like burst.

** But by nerfing those AD items, they will go for Lethality.** They could go for that. But even now some are taking Letha rather than typical Marksman build. They can, but most of them would loose objective takedown power.

But what about item 3812 ? Hey you're reading my mind! Death's dance is - if i'm not mistaken - at first made for Assassin, so let's make it clear? Increase physical spellcast healing but reduced healing on auto-attacks. I know some marksman could still make use of it but at least, less than now.

** So what's next? ** Now the AS Cap is increased, you can increase just a bit AS item.

** Yeah alright but even though you're missing something.** Am I?

** What about Grievous Wounds and Giant Slayer that were on Last Whisper's upgrades?** You can still make item out of it. Like a fifth item 1038 Item for Giant Slayer and a fourth item 3086 's upgrade (since the Executioner's passive synergize well with Attack speed)

You're still missing something Yeah I know you're talking about cost right? I'm not expert with maths. So if you who read this wants to make some theorycrafting about cost efficiency go ahead. I'd be glad to add it.

You're missing something again Oh right champ balancing. Pretty sure it wouldn't hurt most of them apart from Ezreal. In my opinion, with those changes (and maybe some tweak on his Q ratio) he might be able to crit freely and will synergize well with item 3508 without denying item 3042 since he doesn't require as much AS as other Marksman thanks to his passive.

Now that's a wrap thank your for reading me till the end. You can now ask me question, I might have forgot to talk about something. And I'd be glad to answer. Be sure to suscribe leave your impressions, ideas. I chose not to add a poll so you can write more your feels rather than just clicking a choice. I really want to hear what you think! And I hope Riot can take a look at this.

~~Please hire me. I want to work in the gaming world (+ I'm Care Bear. My hugs are magical. You can't refuse this) ~~

NB - I hope I didn't make many grammar mistake. English isn't my first language but I think I'm doing well. You can also correct me it will help me a lot. Thanks again ♥

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13 Comments

Teridax685 votes

To start, I think there's a lot of text here that I think would be beneficial if it were cut, as the OP is quite long. It can be good to have humor and playfulness in your text, but it should not detract from the core points you are making. For that matter, the emphasis through bolded text in your post would likely be better used on your core points, i.e. your suggestions to change crit, reduce AD on marksman itemization, etc., rather than the questions, which include many bits that aren't really relevant.

From what I understand, you are making a total of 5 suggestions:

  1. Reduce crit damage, make it ignore a portion of bonus armor instead.
  • Reduce the AD given by marksman items.
  • Increase the attack speed cap.
  • Replace Last Whisper and its upgrades by other items that would feature Grievous Wounds or the Giant Slayer passive.
  • Rebalance marksmen accordingly.

I very much like Suggestions 1 and 2, as I think changing crit into an armor-piercing effect, rather than flat damage, would allow marksmen to deal anti-tank damage without resorting to burst on each auto. I am also very much in favor of focusing marksmen more on attack speed, so that emphasis is placed on faster rather than harder-hitting autoattacks, but I'm not sure if it should entail increasing the attack speed cap as per Suggestion 3, particularly since doing so would also require some additional animation work to make things look smooth. Suggestion 4 I'd be fine with, and Suggestion 5 I think is a given. All in all, I think these are good ideas, and I think you deserve more visibility, though I also recommend you adjust your text a little. To confirm, you are doing well, your post is grammatically good and largely understandable. Congratulations!

Muzét3 votes

Thanks for your feedback. Gladly appreciated, I started to work on "revamp" my text to be more serious oriented.

As of Attack Speed Increased Cap I think that increase it just a bit (probably not above 3/s) would be a great thing to do specially when I want to reduce every single Marksmen Items. Yeah some champ might need some works around that but minor ones for most of them since they "just" need to not feel sluggish. I can't put it apart as an additional change but I still think it's something that should be work on along with all those changes.

Teridax681 votes

As the new Lethal Tempo rune suggests, you are indeed correct that the current attack speed cap can be raised safely, so I retract my doubt there. I have no criticisms to make!

Muzét1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fcaeynqG-focused-update-marksmen-itemization-and-crit-work

There it is o/ Thanks again for your feedback!

Muzét2 votes

Opinions anyone? :<

Ðelofasht1 votes

It is a good attempt, but messes up some itemization for many of the fighters in the process.

A simpler solution to the sustain issue (thus drain tanking) would be to simply have ranged auto attacks damage heal for half the normal value. This removes the issue of sustain being too strong on ranged champions in general, allowing the rest of the proposed changes to work without directly hitting Bloodthirster or Deaths Dance and other fighters who would use them.

Changes to crit certainly need to occur though I think just making it the only go to solution for anti tank feels odd, perhaps it could build up over time causing increased damage the longer they stay on one target? So it becomes critical damage that can be somewhat interacted with.

Muzét1 votes

It is a good attempt, but messes up some itemization for many of the fighters in the process.

how does it mess up itemization for fighters? The fact that crit ignore bonus armor? They can still build Randuim that reduces crit dmg.

A simpler solution to the sustain issue (thus drain tanking) would be to simply have ranged auto attacks damage heal for half the normal value.

This could work but Riot reverted the test changes on item 3153 on the on-hit part for example because in the end it wasn't wise to nerf ranged on the on-hit part and just reduced the life steal by 3%. Reduced sustain on ranged could work but why can't they at least heal as much as other specially when they're already squishy?

without directly hitting Bloodthirster or Deaths Dance

Death's Dance should be 100% Hit. It was thought for assassin who wants some survival yet it is abused by Marksmen.

Changes to crit certainly need to occur though I think just making it the only go to solution for anti tank feels odd, perhaps it could build up over time causing increased damage the longer they stay on one target? So it becomes critical damage that can be somewhat interacted with.

This could work. Ashe's iteration seems fair (talking about her passive) So makes crit ramping up but wouldn't that make AD less AD ahead for more AS? And what about objective power?

yesnobanana1 votes

Death's Dance is for bruisers like Riven Fiora , not assassins.

Muzét1 votes

I'm okay with it being made for Riven but not for Fiora in the first place. It was made for Casters. Even tho Fiora cast a lot she gains more for going for item 3072 item 3074 we all know it.

Lifesteal as a stat for champions that primarily use abilities has always been an interesting space to work in, but often failed because the 'casters' in question lack the inherent durability to really start draining and instead just die on the spot. Death's Dance instead provides 'pseudo-durability' - just enough to give the user time to get their sustain engine going, but forcing that lifesteal to work overtime so as not to succumb to their accumulated debt. Can you outrace your own death, or will you just dance around it?

From my point of you it's working as much for Assassins Zed Khazix as fighters Illaoi Darius. Of course it seems to fits better fighter because larger pool of health but still.

EDIT - Oh and what do you think about my topic?

yesnobanana1 votes

This just lowers ADC's damage by alot. With IE you will do 175% AD for crits. And the armor ignored is very close to current LW. Secondly the AD reduced on the items is pointless, and raising the AS cap is usless in 99/100 times. Almost no ADC even gets to the cap itself, raising it will do nothing.

Muzét1 votes

This just lowers ADC's damage by alot. With IE you will do 175% AD for crits. And the armor ignored is very close to current LW.

I decided to reduce the crit dammage by a lot because there's not supposed to do burst damage. Marksmen should do sustain damage. So it allows them to do so (since they can still shred tanks) BUT they won't be able to burst mages/assassins faster than those classes theirselves. And it is close to current LW on purpose.

Secondly the AD reduced on the items is pointless

Still along the line of reducing burst potential.

raising the AS cap is usless in 99/100 times. Almost no ADC even gets to the cap itself, raising it will do nothing.

It isn't. Since you are shifting adc power from AD to AS/Crit. You would want to have the possibility to get more auto attacks. Specially when I'm asking for some AS buff across Marksmen items. Usually, at the end of a typical marksmen build you end up between 2.00/2.20 AS (According to runes, AS/level...) if you buff AS items you'll roughly end up to at least 2.30. I think raising it a bit would be good. Specially when you'll have a stronger reason to build AS.

yesnobanana1 votes

If you have 5 45% AS items, base AS of 0.625 and growth of 4% you still dont have 2.5 AS. Along with the overkill ( imo) of crit damage taken away thats just reducing damage by a lot. A higher AS cap isn't actually solving anything.

Muzét1 votes

First, I'd like to invite you continue this discussion here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fcaeynqG-focused-update-marksmen-itemization-and-crit-work

Second, now we saw a rune that allows you not only to go pass the cap but give you a huge boost (+30 to +80%)

I do want to reduce the damage done to squishy but allowing them to still take down tanks.

As a Mage/Enchanter main when I play mid, I'm tired at the moment to see Marksmen being able to take me down so easily because I'm not playing Syndra or Orianna for example. (+ the fact they've got a better itemization but let's not talk about that). By making them deal lower but faster attack damage they'll still be able to dish out lot of damage but they won't be as bursty as they are now.

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