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Sorcery Tree Propositions.

Muzét·6/3/2018, 5:30:27 AM·43 votes·14,209 views

Hi,

You're expecting it, it's to talk about Sorcery. According to Meddler, Sorcery doesn't need minor runes work whereas Domination (Vision slots) and Precision do [source]. And I strongly disagree with the first part of this statement, simply because Sorcery is the tree which needs the most work right now overall. Note: I won't talk about Keystones simply because they'll be worked on.

https://i.imgur.com/WT7mmUN.png

Foremost: The way runes are ordered. Whereas other trees got some logic behind how each rune is placed next to another. Sorcery tree feels like it's scrambled and they found some convenient lineup names to get them next to each other (Artefact, Excellence, Power) even though, some clearly don't have the same weight.

> Empowered abilities and resource manipulation

The first seems redundant - you'll understand quickly why - while the second is almost nowhere to be found (Manaband). So let's change things shall we?

We've got 5 minor runes empowering abilities: Scorch, Gathering Storm, Absolute Focus, Celerity, Waterwalking. 4 of them gives AP, each under different condition. They're being separated into two lineups [Gathering Storm, Waterwalking] under Power, [Celerity, Absolute Focus] under Excellence. Let's group them up first.

https://i.imgur.com/InEXNIy.png

Strengthening lineup. (Basically increases your AP/AD) • Celerity & Waterwalking should be mixed together: "You gain 1% Bonus Movement speed; in the river this bonus is doubled/tripled/???ed. You gain X AP/AD equal to Y/Z% of your Movement speed, in the river this bonus is doubled/tripled/???ed"

• Absolute Focus: Requirement should rather be reduced to >60% from >70% HP. Overall it looks fine.

• Gathering Storm: no changes.

https://i.imgur.com/iDmJxEM.png

Overwhelm lineup (Basically empowering your abilities) All runes will share the same cooldown (2010s at level 118) or interaction with CDR (12s at 40% 11s at 45% CDR). They're all taking effect after 1 second. • Scorch: Add a small AD/AP ratio (0.2/0.1). (The AD ratio is higher because the damage stays magical)

• [NEW] : Your next ability causes a reduction of AR/MR (3/5/7/10 at level 1/6/11/16) for 3s.

• [NEW] Curse: Your next ability causes a reduction of the enemy (X) AD/ (Y%) AP for 2s. (A % AP because it can go realistically higher than AD)

NB: I though about inflicting a Brittle debuff but the way it is represented currently through Ornn feels like it shouldn't be here at all. Not even as a Keystone. So I decided to go for stats reduction so people can play and trade around windows to try getting the best out of their opponent. While Scorch got a purpleish smoke, Acid and Curse should respectively gets a greenish, darkish smoke.

NB2: Acid & Curse could be mixed. And Nimbus Cloak could be there. (I have a little OCD so I want it to be 3/3/3 and not 3/3/4 like some other trees coughs)

Last but not least.

https://i.imgur.com/oO22vdK.png

Willpower lineup (resource manipulation part: Mana/Life/CDR)

[DELETED] Nullyfing Orb; Nimbus Cloak

• Manaflow Band : No changes.

• [NEW] Life Tap: If you don't have enough ressource for a spell you can use it at the cost of your HP. Every time HP is used to cast a spell, the HP cost is reduced by 10% down to 25% of the mana cost (from 125%). Once stacked: Increases by 5% all sources of health regeneration. Notes: No-ressource champions can still use it and stack it, they just won't get reduced costs from it. The HPs used interact with Eternity [Catalyst of Aeons' passive].

• Transcendance: [UNCHANGED] Gain 10% cooldown reduction at level 10. [DELETED] Additionally, you gain either 2 Ability Power or 1.2 bonus Attack Damage (Adaptive) for every 1% cooldown reduction in excess of the cap. [NEW] Excess CDR will affect Summoner's spells Cooldown.

NB: The more I'm using Transcendance the less I'm going that much over the cap. (Usually no more than 10% above I think everyone can agree on that). Even though, that's a huge AP/AD loss from there (20 AP / 12 AD). I think other runes could be tuned (worse case scenario) to make up for that. That's why I went for this change. At first I wanted to give it a passive (Using a summoner spell reduces Summoner spells cooldown by 2% up to 20%) then I remembered that the two other runes proposed a stack&reward mechanic. That's why I decided to go for that. NB2: As AirKingNeo suggested, Transcendance could give 1% CDR every level up to 10% at level 10.

What do you guys think? Don't think a lot about the numbers I put here and there I did that from the top of my head. You could still give me number corrections with a reason why I don't mind at all to talk about that.

Thanks for reading. Thanks to HnK Kenshiro and his dividers post source

EDIT - There's a miscommunication probably on my side even though I don't get where people read that I'm removing the 10% CDR. To be clear: Transcendance 10% cdr won't change. It's the second passive which will change.
I made a few changes. (I didn't have the time to edit everything and answer to everyone I'll do it once I can)

35 Comments

Warlord Rhinark6/3/2018, 8:15:12 AM8 votes

I want my Ultimate Hat back.

Axzarious6/3/2018, 11:46:28 AM8 votes

If I were to give an award to the most interesting and diverse tree, I'd have to go with Resolve. Each rune has a unique impact in how you'll usually approach the game. I'd have a tough time assigning second place to either Precision or Inspiration, since they are similar to resolve in that aspect, but don't quite manage to pull it off as effectively. Domination would be fourth place, if only because of how diverse the keystones are - the rest of the tree mainly comes down to "Do I have this in my kit?" and "Do I like to deal damage?" - even then, Sudden impact is usually the one that takes the cake.

I'll agree that the sorcery tree really does seem to be the most fractured and poorly done - both in keystones and in the minor runes. There are more than a few champions who can put multiple runepages to work, yet i've found most of those who use sorcery are kind of "stuck" with the tree because there's really nothing else that either caters to their playstyle or offers them anything they can really take advantage of. Most of Sorcery's minor runes mainly seem to be built around the idea that they'd be fantastic and versatile choices.... as a secondary tree, if only for MORE NUMBERS in the least interesting way possible.

I can kind of see what they were trying to do - Waterwalking and Celerity are offered for those mid-laners who like to roam, and the ability to stack them was made with that in mind. Gathering Storm and Scorch are grouped together so you can decide if you want to prioritize your early game or late game. Sadly, most of the tree seems to indicate that RIOT seemed to forget Mages were a thing just like they forgot about fighters, and that something like manaflow band was thrown in when they realized "Oh shit, this is the 'mage' tree." - the other options are "lol I can get a free maw" and more of a middle finger to mages. The new and genuinely interesting Nimbus Cloak is something I'll give em props for, even if I don't think it's something most mages really enjoy and will become a secondary rune for other trees.

Anyways, enough of my rambling. I'm really liking some of your suggestionsm though I'd suggest keeping the current naming conventions. Artifact - Manaflow Band, Life Tap (given a more thematic name), Nimbus Cloak. (I'm not sure if Transcendence would be best here, or in Excellence) Excellence - Your Celerity + Waterwalking Combo, Gathering Storm, and Absolute Focus Power - Scorch, Curse, Acid (I think Erosion or Corrosion would be a cooler name though!).

I really love the idea of Scorch/Acid/Curse, since it really does alter playstyles while filling the same kind of thematic idea. Scorch emphasises poke, and Acid favoring Combos. Curse seems like it would favor tankier battlemages like Swain, but it could also just end up being an option overshadowed by Acid. Alternately, this is where a new ability, granting an adaptive shield against AD or AP could be placed - Basically Nullifying Orb (Ward? Barrier?)

Life tap is another option which I think would be worthwhile and actually contend with Manaflow Band.

Your suggestion for Transcendence is interesting, though I think it might be one of the most difficult to balance, becoming either super OP or a waste of time. Flash is an incredibly powerful summoner spell, and there's a reason everybody and their mother takes it, barring a few niche strategies and builds. I'd be on the fence on where to place it, since it's kind of something in between Resource Manipulation and Empowered Abilities. Artifact and Excellence.

I also think the keystones could use a bit of work as well. I'd like to see Deathfire Touch return, and I still kind of mourn the loss of Thunderlords.

TheCodeisCupCake6/3/2018, 5:19:48 PM2 votes

I love the life tap idea. even though it was stolen from Guldan

CoolKnightST6/3/2018, 4:45:08 PM2 votes

##Strengthening lineup

  • Celerity & Waterwalking
  • Absolute Focus
  • Gathering Storm

Nicely done, this group is perfect. Supports/roaming mages have the first option, burst/early mages have the second option and the hypercarry mages have gathering storm.

##Overwhelm lineup

  • Scorch
  • Acid
  • Curse

This feels a little bit more underwhelming rather than overwelming. I really don't like curse. It's just to inconsistent and playing against it will just make it a flip the coin event. Acid has potentional. Just keep Nimbus Cloak here and remove curse, that would be a lot better. I think it would be really intressting to have the ms buff their for champs like sivir and even some supports. So:

  • Scorch
  • Acid
  • Nimbus Cloak

And we have a deal. Also give Acid the name Curse, it would make some sence.

##Willpower lineup

  • Manaflow Band
  • Life Tap
  • Transcendance

This new Transcendance version will be abused while Life Tap basicly becomes useless for manaless champions and that's a problem since they won't have any other proper option. Life Tap is a nice idea but it really will not work out. I can also see some abuse on low mana cost intensive champions with spellvamp or regen abilities. Just think about Cassiopia for example. Yet I think it would have potentional so I would do it like this:

  • Manaflow Band (the scaling)
  • Life Tap (the ham)
  • Transcendance (not your version, sorry)
  • Nullyfing Orb (when you have 2 runes that are basicly useless on resourceless champions you need another runes to compensate, Nullyfing Orb will do that for now)

[DELETED] Nullyfing Orb; Nimbus Cloak

Undeleted

AirKingNeo6/3/2018, 4:58:59 PM2 votes

Why would you kill Transcendence? Change it to: Gain 1% CDR per level until level 10. Excess CDR is converted into X AD/X AP per every 1% excess.

XxXGwanXxX6/3/2018, 10:18:44 PM2 votes

Celerity & Waterwalking should be mixed together: "You gain 1% Bonus Movement speed; in the river this bonus is doubled/tripled/???ed. You gain X AP/AD equal to Y/Z% of your Movement speed, in the river this bonus is doubled/tripled/???ed"

Fking genius, that actually makes sense and could be balanced. It would also make waterwalking actually usable in a way.

FilDaFunk6/3/2018, 4:19:36 PM1 votes

I love the life tap idea, but it should have a cooldown - buying gunblade or lots of HP essentially makes mana useless.

Dope Solo6/4/2018, 1:42:01 AM1 votes

These posts need addressed to Rovient. There's a short note about it from a rioter in the last PBE playchat posted.

lykkelas6/4/2018, 5:48:00 PM1 votes

rito pls.

also transcendence should be a rune that you take when you know you're probably not going to have much cdr if at all in your build. and it should be written so that it gives you 40% at a given point in the game.

e.g. Transcendence: start the game with 10% cooldown reduction. gain another 10% cdr at 15 mins. when you have either X bonus hp from items / Y bonus ad from items / Z bonus ap from items, you gain another 10% cdr. gain the last ten when the first inhibitor in the game is destroyed.

like i would take something like that as a keystone

DW Diana6/3/2018, 2:14:03 PM1 votes

People need to accept that ultimate hat isn't coming back.

I like the ideas stated, though I would worry that assassins could abuse comboing acid and sudden impact too easily (ahri, lb, ekko).

Finally sorcery needs to be more tuned towards mages/ap champions then it currently is. This isn't to say ap only, just that it is meant to be the page that suits them best, yet is currently looking like the worst one for them (electrocute is by far a better keystone for most mages).

To that end I'd suggest the following Keystone as Meddler has said they are looking for a 4th Keystone for Sorcery.

Bloodfire Touch Spells and effects do additional damage over 3 seconds equal to 3% of their damage done. This effect is reduced by 1 third for AOE abilities. You heal for 1 third of the damage done by Bloodfire Touch.

SweedishGunner6/3/2018, 7:57:28 PM1 votes

Don't agree with removing transcendence.

10% CDR was a core part of the old rune system and with the excess CDR converted into AD/AP opens up interesting build paths.

MrHaZeYo6/3/2018, 9:18:08 PM1 votes

You lost me when you removed Transendence. Granted I don't go over the cap really anymore, I value the flat 10%CDR, plus Blue buffs give me 20 AP.

Leonerdo6/3/2018, 9:34:37 PM1 votes

Overall, I think Sorcery is okay for the most part, but lacking in a few critical spots. It could stand to have a 4th keystone, and Comet needs work (I think Meddler said they want to make Comet more interesting.) The last two runes slots (Excellence and Power) make sense to me ("get AD/AP from focusing on something else" and "how do you want your lane phase to work?", respectively). But the first rune slot is pretty messed up (especially Nullyfying Orb, which doesn't belong in Sorcery at all, IMO).

Regarding your suggestions, a few of your rune ideas have too many effects/incentives/gameplay requirements shoved onto a single minor rune:

Celerity and Waterwalking serve different purposes and should stay separate. (Side note: I like think the Celerity changes on the PBE go in the right direction for that rune, by rewarding MS focused champions/builds rather than just giving generic MS to anyone.)

Acid has a good effect for anti-squishy, full-combo patterns. But that doesn't work well with the 1 second delay (bad for burst) or with the low CD (which is better for poke-centric patterns). Also, I think it would fit (somewhat) better in the first slot, as an alternative to the ult-focused Nimbus Cloak and the spell-spam-focused Manaflow Band.

Life Tap is kind of a mess? I'm not sure what it's even supposed to be for (maybe that's just my ignorance, though). Is it just a last-resort "I'm out of mana, but want to cast a couple more spells" rune? Is it supposed to change how a mage builds entirely (build HP and ignore mana; probably better as a keystone, since that is a huge impact)? Is it supposed to be better on spell-spammers (Ryze/Cass) who can stack it faster, or should there be a CD on it?

Other thoughts:

Curse is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it fits in the "unleash destruction" tree. It's seems more like a slightly-aggressive Resolve rune, especially good on tanks/fighters who want to dive onto carries and inhibit their sustained damage. And yes I know, not every damage-mitigating rune belongs in Resolve, but this version of it really doesn't look good on the mages/supports that Sorcery is focused on. But that's just my take.

I think the current Transcendence is fine. The point is to enhance/allow max CDR builds, by getting you to the cap sooner, or by allowing you to overcap without being too wasteful. I don't think your change really adds much to that design. I mean, I guess SS CDR is more interesting than AD/AP, and I don't really see a problem with it, but I don't think it's much of an improvement.

Nimbus Cloak is cool, I wouldn't want to remove it completely.

On the other hand, Nullifying Orb is overpowered and super annoying if you forget the opponent has it. Also it's a purely defensive rune, not a spell-casting/resource oriented rune. So I agree that it needs to go. Maybe it could just move to Resolve, but honestly I wouldn't miss it if was removed completely.

Absolute focus -- 60% hp is too low of a requirement/not as interesting.

DontTouchMyBall6/4/2018, 9:34:57 PM1 votes

Rito, give this man a job already!

ModCaliCoastReplay6/4/2018, 12:41:19 AM1 votes

I agree, Waterwalking + Celerity on a single rune is an idea whose time has come. They both just feel unsatisfying now as singlets.

Spoofghoul6/3/2018, 3:36:00 PM1 votes

Yes for life tap and transcendence

i like their mechanics these i would want to have I do think lifetap would need to deal true damage to self and bypass shields to prevent abuse cases

Not so sure about acid/curse

acid seems to be another hit to the effeciveness of the basic defense in the game armor/ magic resist and both aren't doing so hot mr mostly vs dps magic damage though but armor right now is already borderline wasted gold It's simply a different way of dealing more damage and therefore not all that different from scorch anyway

Curse is alright, it doesn't seem super problematic if tuned right. But it should give clear indication you are weaker in order to play around it, my main problem would be the lack of control over it as the wielder i suppose which would make it a little awkward in some scenario's Though i think it could be useful in lane when you strike first in a trade

koshkyra6/3/2018, 4:04:24 PM1 votes

Your idea is fine but i wanted to share some of my rune ideas too

Tier 3 Runes (the smallest ones): Resource Manipulation, Assorted Stats

Waterwalking: You permanently gain 5 ms and 0.2% of your mana/energy regenerated per second. While in the river, these bonuses are tripled and you gain 1-8 adaptive AP or AD.

Knowledge: You gain 1% CDR at level 1. This increases to 4% at level 6, 7% at level 11, and 10% at level 16.

Flow: Your abilities refund 10% of their cost when they hit an enemy champion. If they hit multiple enemy champions, the cooldown is reduced by 5%.

Tier 2 Runes (the middle ones): Ability Empowerment, Assorted Stats

Nimbus Cloak: Hitting two abilities on an enemy champion within 2 seconds grants you a 50 ms buff that decays over 1.5 seconds. Hitting three abilities increases the buff to 75 ms and you gain 15% tenacity during the duration.

Wand of Concentration: Your first ability against an enemy champion (resets after 12 seconds of not attacking them) deals 20-90 (+10% AP and AD) bonus magic/physical (adaptive) damage, but abilities used after the first (on that champion) will deal 12% less damage (ends after 3 seconds.)

Transcendence: After killing an enemy, your next ability within 5 seconds will shield you for 25-175 (+15% AP). The shield is only 35% effective if the enemy is not a champion.

Tier 3 Runes (the large ones): Temporary Boosts/Debuffs, Assorted Stats

Agility Cloak: After using your ultimate, your basic abilities deal 10% increased damage and you gain 15% tenacity for 5 seconds.

Cripple: Your crowd control abilities inflict a poison that deals 4% of the enemies max hp as magic/physical damage (adaptive) over the duration and lowers their damage output by 10%.

Bolt: You gain 50 decaying movespeed for 1 second after using an ability, but that ability cannot proc this again for 15-9 seconds (based on level.)

Partybringer6/3/2018, 4:06:40 PM1 votes

rune for dft