To this day i still dont understand why she needs that in her kit. She has more than enough tools to win a duel, the free attack speed slow really feels like overkill.
Edit: I never said the attack speed slow is what makes her so strong or that removing it will make her suddenly balanced. I just feel that the attack speed slow is an unnecessary addition to an already highly tuned kit.
NLGG3R BEATER29 votes
what is a slow? :^)
mosdeadly1 votesYi gets his attackspeed slowed in his ult believe it or not. Same with olaf.
NLGG3R BEATER23 votesNo he doesn't
PePsiLemoNN12 votesfree
You ruined your point here
Arakadia10 votesShe doesn't need it to win duels. But it helps her win duels.
I don't think thats the right thing to target. I personally think her early game should be the focus of nerfs. But everyone is just hating on a short duration attack speed slow that can be dodged, is delayed, and telegraphed.
Her attack speed slow is as free as the magic damage on Tahm Kench's autos. "Why does Tahm need his passive auto damage, he already does enough damage and he shouldn't get it for free." is your argument applied to Tahm.
The only free thing a champion can get is stats imo or combos. Lux's Q usually gets her a free combo. Udyr I guess could have free stats via his stances. But Fiora, like every champion, has to pay for her stats via power budget.
I'm not saying nerfs aren't warranted, but the reason Fiora is out of line is not cause she can slow your attack speed for 1.5 seconds, with a single target, delayed, telegraphed, skill shot every 24 seconds.
Brain Errör 4043 votesThat attack speed slow has cucked me numerous times on Riven... other champs might not feel it as much, but I feel it in a trade when I bait out her parry but still get hit by it. I shouldn't be out dueled on a misplay/outplay...
Joxcab2 votesIf you still got hit by it after baiting it out, you failed to properly bait.
Of course you should be outdueled if you misplay or she outplays you.
Brain Errör 4043 votesYou missed the entire point. Parry is an ability to block other incoming abilities. It also applies a slow. All of that is all good and well, but throwing a tacked on, artificial damage reduction on that is overloaded. You know how skill based Riven vs fiora is, and how heavily it leans in the firoa's favor? There will never be 100% options to bait AND dodge the parry. Some times you're only after baiting it Some times the fiora is so good she only parries when she sees the 3rd Q so you have to do Q3 in a way where it hits her and you dodge parry at the same time.
I wasn't outplayed. I baited her ability and should be rewarded for it. If she HITS me with it when I use my W, I'm automatically dead. But she gets a get out of jail free card when I play it right?
chipndip12 votes"I baited out her parry but got hit anyway".
That isn't "baiting" anything, and yes you SHOULD be outdueled if you fuck up or she trumps you. The heck?
Brain Errör 4042 votesYou realize making her press w for an auto attack is called "baiting" the parry right? I shouldn't have to force myself to play Fiora's way ALL the time. If I make her parry nothing, then get hit with an attack speed slow, a MOVEMENT speed slow AND still get hit with damage, I don't see how I'm "outplayed" at all considering the nature of the ability. That's like baiting Sivir's or Nocturn's E, you hit them with an auto instead of a spell, and then proceed to get smashed because you somehow got hit with all of the above debuffs.
I'm not saying I can't dodge the parry when I bait it. But getting hit with it when you don't even hit her and still getting crippled is ridiculous.
King of Demons5 votesThe spell is very underwhelming if it wasn't for that slow. It's essentially just a bad spellshield if you don't get a stun off.
Ivern and Irelia18 votesFiora is very mobile, has tons of true dmg, deals tons of dmg, has aoe healing, has a ranged slow, can spell shield anything at all, can potentially cc her enemy, has a free crit, and has an attack speed steroid. I get that she is a melee hypercarry, and thus needs the tools to get in and do her job, but the attack speed slow is not necessary at all.
Elikain21 votesThis doesn't need to be removed. It isn't why Fiora's strong at all. Removing parts of her kit won't fix her early game damage and then once you do this and she gets nerfed anyway, she ends up super weak.
Her early damage needs to go down a bit. That's it. If she's a scaling champion, she shouldn't be super strong early into the game. And this isn't the problem of her Vitals at all, it's a problem of her early raw damage. I'd partially (or fully) revert Fiora's Q buff that she had a while ago because it was buffed specifically when she was weak. Now that the tank update and bruiser items have gotten adjusted, i think it's safe to revert her buffs as she no longer needs that much damage to win against overall less stat-checky opponents as a top laner.
Arakadia7 votesThis so much.
Fiora will not feel fairer to fight because you removed a 1.5 second attack speed slow that you can dodge, is telegraphed, is delayed, has a clear visual and sound effect, is only up every 24 seconds till she ranks it up last or gets CDR, and will sometimes not even be noticed cause you got stunned, dodged it, or she didn't engage.
She just has too good of an early game for a scaler like herself.
Q buffs should be reverted imo too.
Asayake 5150glow2 votesThis doesn't need to be removed. It isn't why Fiora's strong at all. Removing parts of her kit won't fix her early game damage and then once you do this and she gets nerfed anyway, she ends up super weak.
Her early damage needs to go down a bit. That's it. If she's a scaling champion, she shouldn't be super strong early into the game. And this isn't the problem of her Vitals at all, it's a problem of her early raw damage. I'd partially (or fully) revert Fiora's Q buff that she had a while ago because it was buffed specifically when she was weak. Now that the tank update and bruiser items have gotten adjusted, i think it's safe to revert her buffs as she no longer needs that much damage to win against overall less stat-checky opponents as a top laner.
But... Fioras early game isn't that strong... 90 percent of matchup are skill matchups If you lose it's your fault... Should we nerf Gangplank too? Last I saw, he could still win many match ups if played well - and he scales much, much, better than Fiora.
Elikain8 votesFiora's early game is decent for new players but stronger than intended for experienced players. Simply because more experienced players have already learned how to maximize her damage output and remain safe even without Vitals and Vitals are supposed to be her early game boost to damage and sustain.
Fiora has been buffed in the past because her early game was weaker than intended. And that was a time where top laners did a number on her and she couldn't fight them back properly. So in patch 6.14, here's the reasoning behind her buffs:
#Fiora (6.14)
Passive heals more. Q scaling increased at early levels.
Fiora’s a devastating side-lane duelist when given the appropriate support, but she’s struggling to find success outside of the professional scene. As mentioned with Azir above, it’s important for late-game powerhouses to have early windows of vulnerability, but the degree to which Fiora's being punished at early levels is just a bit too high. We’re improving Fiora’s early trade potential to help tip the scales in her favor when the Grand Duelist starts making the right moves.
Passive - Duelist's Dance HEALTH ON VITAL HIT 25-110 (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 30-115 (at levels 1-18)
Q - Lunge RATIO 0.55/0.7/0.85/1/1.15 bonus attack damage ⇒ 0.95/1/1.05/1.1/1.15 bonus attack damage
Fiora did need help to her laning in 6.14 so this was an appropriate call to make but since top lane stats have been reduced with the tank update, Fiora naturally rose to the top due to this buff that happened before all of this.
However, fully reverting buffs to Lunge might reduce her poke damage (which is intended) but it also may make her CSing harder so this is why i proposed half the reverts first. The point of this reduction is to reduce her poking strength to appropriate levels, not make her an overall worse top laner because some people want to see her gutted. Fiora's supposed to kick your ass in the late game (where she has her items) so there're no problems there in my opinion
She's a fair champion that takes quite a bit of skill to play because her Vitals are her minigame that she has to play around.
The thing about GP is that one Rioter (before the % armor pen pass) already commented that GP's barrels might be ignoring way too much armor which is resulting in an extremely strong late game, compared to how hard he can be shafted early. The thing about scaling champions is if you manage to keep them down, you should delay their spikes for quite a bit.
They shouldn't start beating your ass down after you've given them hell for 20 minutes of the game, all after a single item purchase where they manage to round up the minimal stats they need in order to be relevant and then start racking up pentakills, before the game has been practically a 4v5 - up to that point.
I'm not sure if that's still on their to-do list but this was their comment at that time. I can even agree that GP can sometimes feel so overbearing with just one barrel that chunks you for ~80% HP, with only 3 items (probably Youmuu's, Trinity Force and IE). That's only half of his build.
Sahn Uzal4 votesI mean, you shouldn't be rewarded for not using it properly, should ya?
chipndip17 votesBut there's TWO rewards:
Reward for landing a delayed skill shot
Reward for blocking hard cc before landing a delayed skill shot
People forget about that little extra detail in their salt over not being able to dodge delayed skill shots.
Sahn Uzal4 votesI play GP and Sion, Don't talk to me about Delays. Anyhow, That Delayed Skillshot is often still hard to leave before it goes off, especially since she can slow you with her E because of it. Unless you have a Dash/Blink, you're not really avoiding that.
chipndip17 votesSo then lets remove GP's slows from his barrels since they already deal MASSIVE damage. He doesn't NEED a slow on those guys. They give him gold, cut through resistances, and they're ranged aoes. Overloaded as fuck, don't you think? It shouldn't slow too just because you had to aim the damn thing.
Sahn Uzal3 votesApples and Oranges comparison? :^)
Arakadia6 votesSort of.
I would still say dodging Fiora W isn't all too impossible. Its got super clear sfx and vfx, its delayed, is telegraphed, and its a skill shot. I don't think you can ask for anything else for counterplay against ranged abilities. Generally speaking.
Hinagiku332 votesIt also roots Fiora in place for the duration of the animation, so she can't even try to re-position herself to land it if you move.
Not sure it's possible to have more counter-play without just making the missile speed slow as molasses.
chipndip15 votesYou: I play GP, a melee carry with a delayed skill shot. Fiora, a melee carry with a delayed skill shot, has too much reward on HERS. Remove hers.
Me: Well then remove GPs since his delayed skill shot has a ton of rewards too. I'd love to be able to actually run away after getting blown up for 3/4 my hp.
You: WTF THERE'S NO COMPARISON MINE IS BALANCED SMILEY FACE! :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)
Sahn Uzal2 votesFiora: A mobile, melee duelist / splitpusher, mainly sustain damage focussed. GP, an immobile, burst oriented teamfighter.
And it's not even that you're comparing Fiora's W to Remove Scurvy, the defensive tool of these champions.
If you really think that's a good comparison to make, I have nothing to say here. They're completely different champions and you're comparing completely different abilities with completely different purposes.
Asayake 5150glow3 votes[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jvYAdAVl,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-05T17:18:45.326+0000)
Fiora: A mobile, melee duelist / splitpusher, mainly sustain damage focussed. GP, an immobile, burst oriented teamfighter.
And it's not even that you're comparing Fiora's W to Remove Scurvy, the defensive tool of these champions.
If you really think that's a good comparison to make, I have nothing to say here. They're completely different champions and you're comparing completely different abilities with completely different purposes.
Well, while GP isn't super mobile, hes definitely slippery with his 80 percent slows, cleanse, and movespeed.
Sahn Uzal3 votesOh yeah he can be hard to lock down, but he's not a mobile champion.
chipndip13 votes[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jvYAdAVl,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-05T17:18:45.326+0000)
Fiora: A mobile, melee duelist / splitpusher, mainly sustain damage focussed. GP, an immobile, burst oriented teamfighter.
Stop playing yourself. BOTH of them are skirmishers. BOTH of them are late game scaling melee carries. There's enough similarities on that front to call out the bs in complaining about a longer delayed skill shot having rewards while maining someone with a quicker skill shot with a wider, farther reach with more damage on it, with a slow on it, and a gold generating passive, along with the ability to trigger a true damage burning AA upon usage ON TOP OF giving him a burst of movement speed to proc that with.
"MUH ATTACK SPEED!!!"
Please...give me a break.
And it's not even that you're comparing Fiora's W to Remove Scurvy, the defensive tool of these champions.
Scurvy's even worse. "Oh, ANYTHING HIT ME? No problem! ORANGES! :D"
Like, to the very least Fiora has to have reflexes to block an incoming attack and aim to counter-attack. But lets nerf that move so your melee carry can just slide under the radar. No bias, though. TOTALLY not biased.
If you really think that's a good comparison to make, I have nothing to say here.
Nothing accurate to say maybe.
They're completely different champions and you're comparing completely different abilities with completely different purposes.
By your logic you can't even compare you left hand to your right hand.
Sahn Uzal2 votesI mean, the fact that they're both AD lategame hypercarries with a melee auto attack range is just baout the only similarity
Bias? I don't even mind fighting Fiora, I usually beat her. And when I do get beaten by her, her Attackspeed slow won't be the reason.
If I were making biased statements, I'd want the nerf currently on PBE to go live, because reducing her stickyness would help me a lot.
I do, however, think she's too strong in general. Because it simply is pretty safe to say she is. I think getting rid of the attackspeed slow would be a better nerf than reducing her stickiness because it allows other duelist champions like Jax to have a better chance at taking her on. Thus making her less of a universal pick, currently, she does well vs most champions other than the ones that can poke her down from range while denying her all in.
Unpaladin7 votesFiora's iconic dueling move is respected solely because it negates damage and summoner spells while putting out threat of a powerful stun. Absolutely no one cares about the attack speed slow and it is generally considered an afterthought.
An afterthought that happens to pointedly fuck over most top laners and their ability to punish her for using this ability wrong. kekerooni
SpookyNeedle8 votesAfterthough? The attack speed slow is the main thing that Fiora mains use to win matchups. It's the only way to duel Tryndamere, ADCs, Yi without ult, Kayle, Irelia, etc… If you think we don't use the attack speed slow on purpose, you don't know what you're talking about.
Asayake 5150glow4 votes[{quoted}](name=Nova Force,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jvYAdAVl,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2017-07-05T13:44:26.523+0000)
Fiora's iconic dueling move is respected solely because it negates damage and summoner spells while putting out threat of a powerful stun. Absolutely no one cares about the attack speed slow and it is generally considered an afterthought.
An afterthought that happens to pointedly fuck over most top laners and their ability to punish her for using this ability wrong.
That's completely untrue tho. Against AS/AD champions without high burst or CC, Riposte is virtually useless without the attack speed slow. Not to mention most of those champions will win a duel against Fiora until late game (and even then that's because most dont build glass cannon, Yi and Trynd for example always stand a chance against Fiora, even with the AS slow.) Ill bet money that a glass cannon Shyvana with bloodrazor, Bork, Titanic, Triforce, and PD would annihilate even a late game Fiora without the attackspeed slow. Swap out Triforce or PD for Rageblade (Shyv stacks it insanely fast) and Fiora would melt in under a second.
Joxcab3 votesIf you legitimately think it's just an afterthought, you know nothing about her matchups against attack speed fighters at all.
TEA Nietzsche 3 votesI find it super annoying as someone who hates playing against Fiora, but then again she really needs it in certain matchups. As it is right now she has a bad matchup against the likes of Tryndamere and Kayle (like, really bad, Kayle's ult completely negates Fiora's) and the AS slow is the only thing that she can use to do something - but she still loses hard. So removing the AS slow would make Fiora worse in her bad matchups while not really affecting her strong matchups as she will try to prevent CC anyways.
Overall I think it's necessary to take a look at what Fiora's strength are supposed to be - is she supposed to shred tanks super hard or is she supposed to beat the other squieshy splitpushers. As it is right now she is both which is kind of awkward.
The changes on the PBE target her mobility which is.. Interesting as it opens windows to trade back and avoid her damage. I do think that people underestimate the severity of the nerfs as hitting Fiora's in fight MS means that she gets significantly less damage and heal - if you play your cards right.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesan artificial way to basically make her superior at 1v1s
ad champions that rely on aas are supposed to be duelists. fiora W makes her shit on all of them.
not that she needs it really with that passive. you don't have to use W to dodge shit. just QW to slow their attack speed and they do no damage to you mid late game.
Dani El Pezglobo3 votesjax E ???? (posd: i think she deserve a nerf early game)
MunchCrunchLunch5 votesjax E ???? (posd: i think she deserve a nerf early game)
you know if you don't auto during Jax E it does little damage. also it is delayed and it doesn't block spells or cc. and its a short stun.
also Jax E is the only useful ability in his kit. the rest are gimped shits. fiora has her W. Q ult and E and passive. which are all stronger than all jax abilities besides his E.
u can just W jax E with fiora. he gets stunned. and u win lol.
Mike Kachowski2 votesyou know if you don't auto during Jax E it does little damage. also it is delayed and it doesn't block spells or cc. and its a short stun.
also Jax E is the only useful ability in his kit. the rest are gimped shits. fiora has her W. Q ult and E and passive. which are all stronger than all jax abilities besides his E.
u can just W jax E with fiora. he gets stunned. and u win lol.
Nah bro. You cant "just W jax E with fiora". If the jax is not absolute garbage he will not use his e instantly or at the end. This means that the Fiora has to predict his E, which by the way is instant once you use it. Keep in mind, I am not saying that Jax is stronger than Fiora, nor am I saying that she doesn't need a nerf. But this matchup is one a good Jax should always win.
Andrey03452 votesYes, but Fiora's W has duration too, and if Jax doesn't recast his E instantly, then when Fiora casts her W, he won't have any window to recast his E to hit her with it. So the only way to get her is by recasting it instantly if she will try to wait it out.
Joxcab2 votesExcept no, that's not how it works at all and you need to learn what you're talking about.
Jax can move during E, Fiora can't during W. He can literally just walk away if she starts W.
His E lasts far longer than her W and ends instantaneously meaning you can't reactively parry anyways and need to predict it which is extremely rare against good Jax players who know how to randomize it.
The spin he does is after the stun is already inflicted. Educate yourself please.
HateDaddy2 votesNah bro. You cant "just W jax E with fiora". If the jax is not absolute garbage he will not use his e instantly or at the end. This means that the Fiora has to predict his E, which by the way is instant once you use it. Keep in mind, I am not saying that Jax is stronger than Fiora, nor am I saying that she doesn't need a nerf. But this matchup is one a good Jax should always win.
The moment she gets QSS, Jax loses
General Esdeath 2 votes"OK her W relies on CC, let's give her something else in it so she can still punish champs who rely on attack speed and not CC. Who needs counterplay?"
Imagine if 
's magic shield said "But if the enemy has no AP champs it becomes a physical damage shield" or 
's oranges now state "If Gangplank is not under the affect of any CC he gains a Malzahar passive, blocking the next CC."
Champs should be countered/punished when fighting champs who don't do what they were made to counter. She's meant to counter people who rely on CC for their combos, not anyone in the game. Tanks? % HP damage. CC? Parry. Attack speeders? Parry slow.
chipndip12 votesGalio's W already reduces ALL incoming damage while charging, so wtf?
Also, how about we flip the argument?
E: If the projectile hits a champion without hitting a minion first, there's no slow.
E: All damage values back-loaded into the second half of the move. Not hitting a wall now does 0 damage.
E: Since the point of this ability is aoe damage, this move no longer slows. Why would this slow opponents down AND give him a speed up? Overloaded as fuck.
See how dumb that sounds? Yes, things with more variance get more reward for success and/or partial successes. That's how risk/reward works.
General Esdeath 1 votesGalio's SHIELD the passive one.
E is a damage ability, it's not meant to be something that relies on another ability.
E is a charge meant to be risky with a possible reward, if it did 0 damage without hitting a wall it would be fine because it increases her skillcap.
I fucking wish :^)
No those don't really sound dumb, it seems more like you just don't understand why those abilities exist. Jax's E blocks basic attacks. Now look at his counters. 
Champs who DON'T RELY on auto attacks for damage. See how that works? Champs who don't do what Jax is MEANT TO COUNTER actually beat him. Why does the same not apply to Fiora without immunity to slows?
chipndip12 votesNo those don't really sound dumb, it seems more like you just don't understand why those abilities exist.
I can't believe I've reached a point beyond parody...no wonder this place is Gameplay and Bronze.
Jax's E blocks basic attacks. Now look at his counters.
Champs who DON'T RELY on auto attacks for damage. See how that works? Champs who don't do what Jax is MEANT TO COUNTER actually beat him. Why does the same not apply to Fiora without immunity to slows?
Just cause Jax counters basic attacks doesn't mean Jax's niche in the game is "Win against people that use basic attacks". Also, Jax can still use his E on people that don't basic attack him first so what's your point here?
Actually, Jax STUNS ANYONE REGARDLESS OF BLOCKING ANYTHING OR NOT with this move upon reactivation, and he's allowed to control the reactivation timing of the move. He's also allowed to move during the channel, unlike Fiora. You literally played yourself here. Fiora's Riposte is entirely harder to use than this move is, and RIPOSTE needs to be nerfed? REALLY?
Sinlaire2 votesI've been arguing with idiots in 3-4 different threads over the past two days about all these cry babies wanting Fiora nerfs.
Then they go and quote some other champion who is exactly the same in terms of counters and toxicity in game and act like they're saints. One person even said Tryndamere had a better niche than Fiora and Fiora is too generalist.
what? you mean split pushing, 1v1 fighting, being bad at team fights, slows, gap closers, enemy stat reducer, auto attack based champion? you mean that one? that's tryndamere AND Fiora. they're the same and you're saying one is better than the other because of your hate right now when almost everyone agrees Tryn needs a rework from how binary he is.
I'm in bronze and these threads are a joke. part of me wishes i would spend more than one game a month in ranked so i could actually flash a badge of competency around in here but it doesn't matter. bronze knows nothing and diamonds are disregarded as pompous overlords.
just break up whatever circle jerk you can and move on.
This OP was even saying Grand challenge needs AOE heal removed, Riposte attack speed slow removed, and damage reworked so she could only kill tank OR squishies. Which essentially removes 100% of her team fight worth, drops her dueling power, and cut's out almost half the roster for her being able to kill in a reasonable time frame. Altogether i would be surprised if her win rate didnt drop below 40% if he had his way but refused to see an ounce of argument. you can't win with these guys.
Moonfall Saber1 votescan fiora just not exist
Ivern and Irelia1 votesi mean that works too, but if riot is willing to delete champs id rather them start with fizz
Moonfall Saber1 votes
lets play a game. Can you name these champions counterplay?
Killed Inaction3 votesPretty easy. Just have to know how to put it into practice, and choose counters which you can also actually play well. Don't pick a champion for the first time just because champion.gg says it's a counter.