I mean, it Talon is seen as weak by Riot, why not just buff Talon?
Why buff items that ANYONE can use when there are champs similar to Talon that can use the items just as well but work better in meta than Talon?
Thats like... Giving everyone ice cream because one kid was sick the day you last handed out ice cream.
AmazoX9 votesThe only buff talon needs is reduce the time it takes for his second phase of W to return to Talon faster, It's funny how talon would die by an ADC faster than his blade 2nd phase returning (LATE GAME), Therefore it becomes a bit harder to kill them to trigger your passive so it's risky going in without your Ult.
Sexy Jack Rabbit18 votesI disagree massively. His Passive is quite literally bonkers, being able to proc it faster then you already can would be kinda ludicrous. If you're getting killed by ADC's before your second W hits, you haven't ended the game early enough. I think he needed some buffs to the terrain CD on his E at first, second and third rank, and the ability to E walls while ulting.
His E is where his kit lacks power, not his Q, W or Ultimate.
AmazoX2 votesI'd rather have them nerf the passive damage and buff the 2nd Q phase return faster as it'd feel much better.
Sexy Jack Rabbit4 votesPassive is quite literally his bread and butter. I'd rather keep that at 160 +200% of my Bonus AD, then buff an ability that in all honesty isn't hard to hit or lacking in power.
AmazoX1 votesZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, Alright, How do you think they should buff him?
Xevestos11 votesAs of now no buffs are needed at all.
Dmg is allready insane if played by a skilled talon.
Acceptable buffs:
E bug fixes (u srsly sometimes jump on the spot or in the other direction)
Be able to q and w while using e.
E not breaking r.
AmazoX4 votesTotally agree, A good talon is indeed good enough, E not breaking R and being able to use W and Q mid Air would be sweet bug fixes.
Spaceman5pff3 votesThe inability to W or Q midair is not a bug, it was just programmed so that he couldn't cast midair.
E breaking R is probably not a bug either.
Not saying these things shouldn't be changed, but calling them bugs is almost certainly incorrect
Auz the Ripper1 votespersonally I would prefer that his passive got grievous wound for the duration it would have a negligible effect on his early game it wouldn't help him kill mages much more the short duration of the passive prevents him from shutting down heal tanks or juggernauts adding grievous wound to blade's end would, for the most part, only effect his ability to kill ADCs late game
AmazoX1 votesCool idea but that buff isn't necessarily needed on Talon right now, He is in an pretty fine position.
Rito Staff1 votesmake talon say "PARKOUR" when he PARKOURS
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesAlternatively; 
"This is our park now"
Catastrop2 votesSimple QoL changes are what he needs. Not buffs that might just send him over the top. E not breaking stealth would be a start. Being able to buffer abilities mid E would be nice too.
GankedFromBehind4 votesHis Q feels like absolute dog shit to use as a gap closer.
His E is too much of a one point wonder. You're almost punished if you're not maxing it last.
Old Talon has a nice flow, everything ran smoothy from his old E into combo. Now, everything feels clunky and awkward.
Riot shoved everything into Q and his ult, meaning he'll spike too fast if he's not gated hard, and that's the root problem is his rework.
Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votesYou DO max his E last though. You ARE punished if you max your E before anything else.
By a lot of counterplay standards the old Talon was extremely toxic, and kinda boring to play as well.
Riot shoved a lot of his kit into his passive actually, a lot of his kit lost damage and was shifted into an extremely strong Passive. His new kit stops him from being a pure one-hit wonder, albeit I agree he needs a few adjustments as he doesn't feel so smooth.
I hated his old E though, bootleg Katarina Shunpo. Lacked the good part.
GankedFromBehind1 votesYes, but forcing players to max E and not spreading out the power through-out his kit is what makes him problematic to balance right now.
Same problem with LeBlanc - one point in her E is enough because you get the max CC effect and passive proc damage for one point, giving her a bunch of other points to get even more damage rather than limiting it throughout the kit.
Spaceman5pff2 votesWhat is forcing Talon to max E... I don't get it. Who is maxing E on talon right now?
Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votesI'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You are not forced to max his E till last, it's just recommended as you can make your power-spikes more effective.
MisterShameless1 votesI know this is something off-topic, but you seem like someone to ask this question. Would Talon be a good jungler if his Q heal worked on monsters/jungle?
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesI'm no statistics god by any standard lol. I have tried Talon jungle a few times myself though. (Not recently so take this with a grain of salt) You have to think of it like Jungle Quinn. It's not about their sustain, or their clear or their objective control, it's the unique mobility they brings to the team. Talon's Q does heal off of Jungle Creeps btw.
It's definitely viable, and I'm sure you can find some players online who do it. I'm just not sure which match-ups are good vs bad etc. Or how overall effective it would work as a damage JG.
The surface issues it brings up is Jungling as Talon encourages maxing Q first, and when playing the new Talon you want to avoid that. The heal scales with level, not ability rank, so maxing it first won't bring you max benefits that early in the game. The other issue is that Talon has pretty 'meh' movement speed due to his E mobility, which can make first clears and early ganks a little painful without boots.
MisterShameless1 votesThanks a lot for the info. I last played Talon right after his rework against boys to mess around in jungle. At the time, his Q wasn't healing off monsters when I played him there a few times.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesTalon's Q has healed off of JG creeps since the rework. Were you executing them with it? You have to kill the target to get the heal.
MisterShameless1 votesYes, heal worked on minions, but never for creeps.
Oelyk2 votesI would have to disagree, that would break his early game even more. If they ever felt talon is weak, they should not be moving more power into getting out damage faster(that was the point of the assassin update...)
If I was trying to buff Talon, I would move more power into the second part of ult when you target someone, because his entire late game power depends wether or not his R is up or not.
Dabrick015 votesHonestly, Lethality was super weak for a while. It was not living up to that stat that they replaced, and the small buffs to compensate were not enough. Talon was underpowered due to the items and he got a indirect buff for it. He needed something as his core items were too weak. If they buffed him to compensate, then the other champs affected by the Lethality changes like he was would still be underpowered. Lethality was weak across the board and needed a buff and it is affecting everyone.
Stillname2 votesThe problem is that it might not have been super weak, but everyone thought it was so no one was using it.
They buffed something that was actually at an okay level because everyone playing the game thought it wasn't.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesThe stat design wise was.....fine, but on the items it was on it was awful before the buff. Lethality BY DESIGN is a late game stat. End of story. When you put it alongside out of combat movement speed and other EARLY GAME stats you get very contradictory items. Before the buff Ghostblade was not a good first item over others since Lethality didn't mean anything around the time you bought it (level 9). However since Lethality synergizes well with itself you HAD to buy one first if you are stacking it.
Wimbledofy1 votesby design lethality is an early game stat since it gives flat armor pen, not % armor pen.
Dextix LT4 votesBecause Riots balance team always ignore the real problems and try to fix them by doing something entirely unrelated.
Enlegacy4 votesBecause a lot of the champions who were supposed to use lethality were not. They were instead using basically every other AD damage item in existence.
ReZisT Lust4 voteswho doesnt like extra ice cream??[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]
ForgiveColour4 votesRiot is refusing to buff him because mage mains will qq that a ad mid i is viable
RexSaur3 votesLethality was bad as a stat, it wasant just bad on talon, it was bad on everyone, assassins were going BC deathsdance instead of it, thats how bad it was.
Maybe it got overbuffed but it really needed some kind of buffs.
Steel Blossom3 votesAs someone who onetricked Talon since s3, the rework really took away the last bit of edge that Talon had compared to other assassins. It used to be that Talon was the assassin with the most reliable dive, because of the instant damage+silence. And then he lost silence, but he still had very quick damage on a cooldown that's decently short. And then they gutted his ult CD, but his E still make him really great at slipping into teamfights to deal big AoE damage. Now, with this rework, they've taken away his 350 base movespeed, doubled the time it takes him to burst, absolutely neutered his dive, AND halved his AoE. Now, he has to rely heavily on out-visioning the enemy team and waiting out every single CC to get into teamfights without being blown up before he even lands on the other side of the wall. Talon doesn't need number buffs, or OP items. He needs to be sped up again, and that's all there is to it. You can argue all you want about how a reliable and speedy combo is absolutely bonkers, but you can't change the fact that without it, Talon is shit.
feryvunny2 votesThis is an extremely underrated comment. The base MS nerf hit him the hardest IMO. It can't be justified by his E. I feel like I have to build swifties almost every other game otherwise I feel like a slug. Or at least rush tier 2 boots when convenient.
He's the "ultimate roamer". Then let him fucking roam with decent speed. Yeah, lethality items give him out of combat ms, but that's OUT OF COMBAT. Another assassin with 350ms can roam just as effectively and someone like zed would have a much higher kill threat/dive potential than talon at this point. The only thing Talon's E gives an edge over is being able to possibly bypass wards. And even if you do, it'll be 10x harder to get the kill because his in-combat MS is so slow.
He's in a decent spot now. But with the inevitable Lethality nerfs he will be back to square 1 again. Either 1.) give him his base MS back or 2.) Increase the range on his Q a little more. That is all he needs to possibly even be considered competitive.
Steel Blossom1 votesOr maybe change up his E to make him have an increased Q range immediately after landing, or just make it give him bonus movespeed.
feryvunny1 votesYeah that's another good idea too. Too bad we probably won't ever see this happening unless Talon becomes a more popular champion.
Riot tends to favor the more popular champions. Just look at Rengar. They didn't even hesitate 1 milisecond to give him a cleanse + mini olaf ult + heal + mini Q dash + passive that gives an absurd amount of free AD (meanwhile Kindred). Granted that's all nerfed now. But it doesn't take a fucking genius to realize that kind of stuff is broken. Even all the PBE testers at the time said it was broken. At the end of the day they played favorites with knife-cat.
On the other hand, when it comes to Talon though, they beat around the bush like no tomorrow to try and give him some tools. He was unanimously considered weak at launch. But what do they do? Give him a small mana/q sustain buff and buff the ITEMS that he builds. What a joke lol
Gallows madness2 votesThats like... Giving everyone ice cream because one kid was sick the day you last handed out ice cream.
I love it
Jeanne fan club2 votesI have been saying this for a month now, the fact that all items can be used by every champion creates more balancing issues than it solves. If each champion got a selection of unique items that only they could buy, then balancing issues would be not only less severe, but easier to fix as well.
Supreme Senpai691 votesYou're not wrong but then what's the point of even having items? A perfectly balanced game would exist with everyone playing the same champion with no variables. You trade fun for balance; the important thing is finding that perfect split where one isn't overbearing on the other. Taking away items would cause balance to be overbearing on fun. No off meta would ever exist again.
Jeanne fan club1 votesIm not necessarily asking for that. Items are necessary for snowballing and some sort of progression as the game goes on. The problem now is that Items are what is practically making or breaking the champion, and on top of that, only champions that can abuse the most powerful items are broken, while champs who build that item, but don't really abuse it have lower winrates . The whole idea i had with champs getting their own items, is that the unique passives of those items would end up augmenting an ability in their kit, which would end up helping niche too. I don't want 100% balance, I just want balance to be simpler. At the moment, any slight change to an item will affect most of the champions in that class. That makes insanely hard because there are too many variables that they are affecting with a change to just one item.
Supreme Senpai692 votesWeek 1: "Talon is weak so we're buffing his items" Week 2: "ADCs are too strong so we're nerfing them all" Week 3: "We're nerfing Talon's items and are exploring other ways to give him strength. Maybe if we buff Lee Sin..."
AmazoX1 votes[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Hige2 votesthey didnt buff lethality because of talon, lethality is a stat that scales with game length and since games are finishing by mid game, lethality was simply subpar since you'd be better off buying a ton of AD than a percentage of a value for armor pen, at when it started at 40% you'd be around 60% by mid game, so it was indeed worthless.
Currently you start at 60% and by mid game you sit at 75% ish which is awesome
that said, it might be a bit over the top so the value should be adjusted again
feryvunny1 votesThat just means they have to A: nerf everyone that becomes OP from the Lethality buff or B: Nerf lethality. Which puts Talon back at square 1. Even though he's decent right now with the lethality buffs.
So at the end of the day, Riot, stop beating around the fucking bush and just give Talon the buffs he needs with the eventual Lethality nerfs. They didn't even fucking hesitate to give Rengar that ridiculous CC cleanse and immunity at the Assassin rework. Riot just loves playing favorites and its so annoying lol
Synnx71 votesBecause they are that incompetent at balancing this game
bbQsauçe1 votes[deleted]
Oelyk2 voteshttp://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/01/dev-state-of-champion-update-january-2017/
"While we feel Talon’s kit is in a pretty good spot, we also think he was a tad bit weak at launch. We put some small buffs in for Talon himself, but also suspect his current power level is impacted by some of his must-buy items being a little on the weak side. We will be looking into buffs for core items that we think will help him out, and will continue to monitor him going forward."
Heres the source I got this from.
