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Support itemization homogenizes support gameplay

5000000000000000··3 votes·529 views

Not just how a support builds, but also how a support plays.

I think we should rework Redemption, not just nerf it. It's not that the active itself is too strong or too weak, but rather that its utility matches the utility of many support ultimates. Support itemization should try to enhance on support's preexisting kit, instead of just giving new powerful spells.

As a comparison, every ADC builds AD and crit (well, sometimes AD and lethality), but this doesn't change how an ADC plays. It just enhances what they do. Every AP mages build AP, but their kit defines them, not their itemization. Lux, Orianna, and Ahri (the top 3 play rate according to champion.gg) all build item 3165 item 3020 item 3285 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 with slightly different build order, but the way they play is significantly different despite having the same itemization, and same keystone mastery. Support, however, regardless of whether you play a Leona or Janna, you're gonna be building item 3107 item 3190 and play very defensively to put heals and shields on your carries.

tl;dr is that supports should be able to support better by having their own abilities become more powerful with items, instead of gaining access to new abilities that are insanely strong on their own and may not have synergy with the support's kit.

One solution is having a new stat that scales with utility. This has been proposed several times, sometimes called CP (celestial power), UP (utility power), or EP (Enchanting power). But the basic concept is the same. Make utility scale from different stat than AP. I'll not discuss the details here, since it's a long topic.

Another solution I propose is making redemption into a mini revive to use your own utility after death for a brief period.

Thank you for reading, and please leave your thoughts.

16 Comments

chipndip11 votes

At the end of the day, no matter how many times you pitch it, the notion of making an entirely new stat for like 1/10 of the roster is asinine. However, the analysis of the role in general holds true.

50000000000000001 votes

We have 5 AD assassins and 11 AD slayers (including skirmishers and assassins), yet we have lethality. Besides, the stat can be applied to all utility spell, not just one of 13 enchanters. Nearly all champions have slows in their kits, and items like Frozen Mallet and Rylai's can be modified to give a mix of UP for slow scaling.

UP doesn't have to be just for enchanters. They will use it the most effectively, but you could say the same about any stat.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

chipndip11 votes

Yeah, but marksmen were also abusing armor pen too, right? That's more than just 11 - 12 champs. Early pen builds were all over the place before lethality was put in, and part of it was done to keep marksmen from building assassin builds all over the joint. In other words, it was done to have a wide effect to keep everyone in line and add value to the late game. This change, however, targets one class of champions to force them into never building ap. Not the same thing.

And some champs (as well as this whole game) are balanced around the notion that you can't make slows stronger than what they already are.

Linna Excel1 votes

Just the caster ADCs.

50000000000000001 votes

IIRC Draven built it too. It was pretty much everyone except Ezreal who builds blue.

50000000000000001 votes

It was changed so ADCs can't use it (or at least make a trade off when using it).

This change allows support itemization to allow supports to be impactful without having to buy expensive AP, and allow Riot to balance utility mages better. Supports can still buy AP, but that means they sacrifice utility for damage. It also means that their kit isn't just loaded with more spells (active effects), but rather their existing spells are stronger, like the rest of the champion roster. AP mages get stronger spells from building AP, instead of get some random new ability. So there is a wide effect to the game to keep everyone in line behind this proposal. It's not just "let's just give supports their own stats because why not" or "force supports to never build AP."

chipndip11 votes

I don't know how many times I've explained this to you:

  • Mage supports Brand and Zyra are strong FROM THEIR BASE KITS, not their scalings. They're expected to build slow, so their base kits are designed to get high damage even with less ap simply by working their passives into their rotations. Other support champs building like them doesn't work nearly as well because, well, they aren't designed like that. Hell, they're designed intentionally so their benefit from building ap isn't as good as the rest of the roster.

  • If you force supports into never buying damage, those two champs basically get the freedom to run bot lane over forever. Those two are weak to damage. Your idea removes damage from every support except them, thus they're exposed to less damage. Meanwhile they provide enough utility and plenty of damage. They'll be blatantly better than everyone.

  • The only issue with ap itemization is that everyone's scared to make support items with ap on them (that aren't garbage).

50000000000000001 votes

I really don't see your Brand and Zyra argument. Their utility is on the low side of the support roster. And their base utility will be much weaker compared to scaled utility on enchanters. Almost all supports have AP scaling. Sure, they aren't designed to function with high AP, but many of them do function with high AP. They go to solo lane and get nerfed to oblivion because they become impossible to balance in both roles. Separating UP and AP solves this.

Brand and Zyra are weak to damage, sure. Their strength is poke, and sustain counters poke. You counter them with sustain like Janna, Soraka, or Sona. And they're gonna benefit the most from AP/UP split.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I really don't see your Brand and Zyra argument. Their utility is on the low side of the support roster. And their base utility will be much weaker compared to scaled utility on enchanters.

Their utility is ENOUGH, not high. Difference. Think of it like Pokemon: You only need enough speed to make a big difference in your turn order, or enough defense to survive 3 hits instead of 2 from the same attack (assuming no stat boosts). They have enough utility to have a presence in the bot lane, and the rest is invested in another area that most supports are being driven away from, so they monopolize it hard. Also, the cc that matters on them is either from an item, and thus wouldn't be scaled (Rylai's) or from hard cc and isn't scaled anyway. They don't care about scaling cc to begin with, and this change doesn't make them weaker or less desirable. It makes everyone else weaker and less desirable based on how much they relied on damage and utility being tied to each other.

Almost all supports have AP scaling. Sure, they aren't designed to function with high AP, but many of them do function with high AP. They go to solo lane and get nerfed to oblivion because they become impossible to balance in both roles. Separating UP and AP solves this.

Or just make actual ap items that make sense for the role? You don't need 500 - 600 ap to feel the effects of having, say, 200 - 300 ap with some extra passives and/or actives.

Brand and Zyra are weak to damage, sure. Their strength is poke, and sustain counters poke. You counter them with sustain like Janna, Soraka, or Sona. And they're gonna benefit the most from AP/UP split.

No, here's the thing: Sustain only works when there's damage coming back out against the poke. Otherwise it's simply a stalemate. Janna and Soraka don't care because they're extremely defensive picks. They simply exist to create a stalemate outside of ganks. Sona, on the other hand, is countered BY Zyra, and doesn't appreciate Brand either. Nor would she appreciate not being able to scale her entire kit with one stat.

50000000000000001 votes

Their utility is certainly not "high enough" when we still see other supports with higher utility picked. Rylai's slow can have UP scaling too. Items having scalings isn't that uncommon, and the purpose of the stat is amplifying utility.

Who really relies on both damage and utility scaling into mid-late game? Sona's damage become pitiful unless going heavy into AP instead of items like Redemption. Karma's damage also falls off heavily unless going heavy AP. Solo lane Sona and Karma do this, but not supports. Pretty much every enchanter focuses on utility and no additional damage in their builds. Brand and Zyra (and other mage supports) just build like APCs, thus leaving the team with no real support to provide team wide utility. But that's fine, since the team is making a major trade off from that pick.

Getting no kills in a Janna/Soraka lane isn't a stalemate, it's winning. The win condition for Janna and Soraka, when coupled with late game carries (and they often are), you win lane by farming. You can make them run oom from sustaining, and that's a win, since lane bullies such as Brand and Zyra are meant to push enemies out of lane or kill them. By not letting them do that, you're denying them the win condition. Just because score is even doesn't mean it's a stalemate. I guess you're right about Sona though, since she loses a lot of her lane bully potential when going against stronger lane bullies.

That said, AP/UP split is not going to affect the early game as significantly as you suggest, since base damage is what affect the early game damage output. Mid game and late game, enchanters don't do much damage, even when investing in AP, because mage itemization is balanced around solo lane income. You can opt for things like Athene's or Ardent Censer that gives very little AP and barely affect their damage output.

Sona will be able to go either the damage route or utility route, both of which will provide stronger specialization. The AP/UP split will allow AP Sona to do more damage since she has less damage, and allow UP Sona to provide more utility since she has more utility. She can even go mix of both to play more like the current state, if anyone really wants to.

chipndip11 votes

See, my problem with you is that you use blatant denial and ignorance to drive half your points home.

"Brand/Zyra don't have enough utility to be supports because other supports have more utility, even if they're used more as supports than mid laners".

THIS IS YOUR ARGUMENT? DO YOU NOT REALIZE HOW DUMB THIS SOUNDS?

Also: You're basically saying that shoving almost the entirety of the support role into a hyper-defensive, extremely campy playstyle is a good thing...why? Damage output is needed to hold an offensive presence. If all you do is tickle, people can steadily ignore you unless your utility is so ridiculous they blatantly can't, but that creates its own problems. The idea is better than "Make every item op so we're walking items instead of champions", but the idea is still bad in general.

50000000000000001 votes

If we're talking about laning phase, yes, supports are damage threats as well. Some have less damage output, and some have more. And poke supports are necessary to keep all in lanes in check. BUT After laning phase, support isn't going to be doing less damage than the carries. If they are doing about the same/more damage, then they should either give up utility for that, or are simply overtuned/broken.

AP/UP split barely affects laning phase. If you think supports should be a major damage threat mid to late game, then yes, I disagree. A support's main role in a teamfight should be providing utility, not damage. Utility can still be aggressive. Kled's ultimate, for example, has very little damage but a lot of utility in the form of massive teamwide movement speed buff. Nami's ultimate is similar in that, as well as Karma's R-E. Having little damage and a lot of utility doesn't make a champion's kit passive, just like how adding a bunch of damage doesn't make a champion's kit aggressive either (Nunu's ultimate has a ton of damage but he doesn't play very aggressively).

And no, that doesn't mean that I think Zyra and Brand shouldn't be supports. They are a niche pick that plays very different from a traditional support, and for their damage they give up a lot of utility. Zyra's knockup is very telegraphed and delayed, although she can land the snare first. She can use this to engage or disengage, but it's not as good of an engage as a Leona or a Malphite ultimate, and not as good of a disengage as a Janna's ultimate. So that's a fair tradeoff. The team will likely need a secondary source of utility to fill up that gap.

"If all you do is tickle, people can steadily ignore you unless your utility is so ridiculous they blatantly can't, but that creates its own problems."

That's basically what tanks do, no? Instead of heals/shields, they use lockdown to generate threat, instead of just a bunch of damage. Same with Janna in her current state. You don't need damage to have presence. I'm sure you've seen plenty of assassins who jump on ADCs without respecting Janna's disengage. On the other hand, a lot of damage supports can be ignored by assassins because they don't have enough lockdown (theoretically, assuming they don't have much utility in itemization either). Damage is a part of presence, but it's not just damage that give you presence.

Also, was your point just that Brand and Zyra have enough utility to be supports? If it's just that, I wouldn't disagree, but I thought the point you were trying to make was that if support itemization don't provide damage, only mages like Brand and Zyra will be viable supports. And given that other supports provide higher utility, my point was that such meta (of likes of Brand and Zyra only being viable supports) will not happen after AP/UP split. I thought that was what you were implying when you said they have enough utility--as in they have enough utility that more utility (such as the rest of the support roster) would be useless, just like having 300 speed instead of 200 on your Pokemon when the enemy has like 20.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

If we're talking about laning phase, yes, supports are damage threats as well. Some have less damage output, and some have more. And poke supports are necessary to keep all in lanes in check. BUT After laning phase, support isn't going to be doing less damage than the carries. If they are doing about the same/more damage, then they should either give up utility for that, or are simply overtuned/broken.

Most supports, even on a heavy ap diet, can't do more damage than a carry. Only Brand and Zyra do, and I've discussed why way too much for you to need another explanation. Only other possible one is Sona, but I hold firm to the notion that she needs a VGU.

AP/UP split barely affects laning phase. If you think supports should be a major damage threat mid to late game, then yes, I disagree. A support's main role in a teamfight should be providing utility, not damage. Utility can still be aggressive. Kled's ultimate, for example, has very little damage but a lot of utility in the form of massive teamwide movement speed buff. Nami's ultimate is similar in that, as well as Karma's R-E. Having little damage and a lot of utility doesn't make a champion's kit passive, just like how adding a bunch of damage doesn't make a champion's kit aggressive either (Nunu's ultimate has a ton of damage but he doesn't play very aggressively).

I didn't say "Major damage threat" now did I? You just don't need "barely any" either. Either extreme is bad. There's a decent middle ground where you can do a reliable, noticeable deal of damage on a squishier target after getting a few hundred ap. Just supplement that with some more team-oriented effects that aren't all shield/heal related, and I'd honestly be happy. That and remove aoe sustain items from the game. They're impossible to balance.

Also, utility can be aggressive, but when you're 100% utility and 0 offense, literally nothing stops the enemy from saying "If I burst that guy, I can get his buddy for the price of 1 since he literally can't hurt me at all".

And no, that doesn't mean that I think Zyra and Brand shouldn't be supports. They are a niche pick that plays very different from a traditional support, and for their damage they give up a lot of utility. Zyra's knockup is very telegraphed and delayed, although she can land the snare first. She can use this to engage or disengage, but it's not as good of an engage as a Leona or a Malphite ultimate, and not as good of a disengage as a Janna's ultimate. So that's a fair tradeoff. The team will likely need a secondary source of utility to fill up that gap.

The two aren't even niche anymore, honestly.

And no, teams don't need more utility than Zyra. Her ult makes for a very large disengage option, and her E is a solid snare that snares everything in its path with no delay. She also gets slowing plants out of it. You're underestimating Zyra.

"If all you do is tickle, people can steadily ignore you unless your utility is so ridiculous they blatantly can't, but that creates its own problems."

That's basically what tanks do, no? Instead of heals/shields, they use lockdown to generate threat, instead of just a bunch of damage. Same with Janna in her current state. You don't need damage to have presence. I'm sure you've seen plenty of assassins who jump on ADCs without respecting Janna's disengage.

Yeah, but tank supports are tankier and provide more solid lockdown...so hard cc, which isn't scaled. Mage supports don't need to be shoved in this weird little corner. Just give them ap. An off-tank gets to be tanky. An off-mage shouldn't be forced to do no damage AND be squishy. What type of logic is this?

On the other hand, a lot of damage supports can be ignored by assassins because they don't have enough lockdown (theoretically, assuming they don't have much utility in itemization either). Damage is a part of presence, but it's not just damage that give you presence.

I don't see someone like Zed ignoring Zyra's E any time soon...

Also, was your point just that Brand and Zyra have enough utility to be supports? If it's just that, I wouldn't disagree, but I thought the point you were trying to make was that if support itemization don't provide damage, only mages like Brand and Zyra will be viable supports. And given that other supports provide higher utility, my point was that such meta (of likes of Brand and Zyra only being viable supports) will not happen after AP/UP split. I thought that was what you were implying when you said they have enough utility--as in they have enough utility that more utility (such as the rest of the support roster) would be useless, just like having 300 speed instead of 200 on your Pokemon when the enemy has like 20.

My point is that Brand and Zyra would either remain top tier or require Riot to Sejuani both of them if a change like this was made.

50000000000000001 votes

"I didn't say "Major damage threat" now did I? You just don't need "barely any" either. Either extreme is bad. There's a decent middle ground where you can do a reliable, noticeable deal of damage on a squishier target after getting a few hundred ap."

If you want a decent amount of damage on your support, then build AP. But going for more damage shouldn't also give you more utility, unless you're making a trade off of even more damage or even more utility. A middle ground option needs to provide worse of both.

"Also, utility can be aggressive, but when you're 100% utility and 0 offense, literally nothing stops the enemy from saying "If I burst that guy, I can get his buddy for the price of 1 since he literally can't hurt me at all"."

When that utility can reliably stop the assassin from bursting in the first place? 100% utility and 0 offense is pretty much the definition of Janna and Soraka. Janna can reliably prevent most assassination attempts with all her tools, and Soraka (less reliably) can often heal through burst, with her ultimate.

"The two aren't even niche anymore, honestly." I meant niche as more like a group of picks that fulfill a specific role, instead of using it as just another word for off-meta. Should have been clearer there. I think it's still fair to say Zyra provides less utility compared to champions whose kits focus solely on utility, even if Zyra has enough utility for a team.

"Yeah, but tank supports are tankier and provide more solid lockdown...so hard cc, which isn't scaled. Mage supports don't need to be shoved in this weird little corner. Just give them ap. An off-tank gets to be tanky. An off-mage shouldn't be forced to do no damage AND be squishy. What type of logic is this?"

Not sure why you keep focusing "isn't scaled" when it can be without breaking the game. A lot of abilities in the game have scaling hard CC duration (based on level and rank). Putting a ton of gold into making your CC last longer for becoming squishier/less damaging is really not an unhealthy design. Mage supports can still use base utility (like how tanks use base damage) and build AP for more aggressive build, or use base damage and build UP for more team oriented build. I'm not saying mage supports shouldn't do damage. I'm saying mage supports shouldn't get both more damage and more utility from the same stat. Still not sure why you think this is not fine.

"I don't see someone like Zed ignoring Zyra's E any time soon..." The delayed, slow projectile, long cooldown snare? Compared to dedicated peel supports that's like nothing.

"My point is that Brand and Zyra would either remain top tier or require Riot to Sejuani both of them if a change like this was made." If this change happened in a vacuum, sure. But the split also allows utility build to provide more utility than before, and damage build to provide more damage than before. Utility supports will become stronger overall because of the utility they provide. And if they were to just remain top tier without being gamebreaking, that's still not bad at all. I honestly don't see how this would make them stronger. Because their utility doesn't scale? The whole point of adding UP is adding UP scaling on utility spells. This change would allow pretty much every supports who perform well in solo lanes to be balanced separately, thus making them not have to be gutted from viability.

PPPPPPPPPPPP2701 votes

One thing I can say is that most supports not named Zyra or Brand give a shit about stats most of the time. Their spells provide plenty of utility without any form of AP, AD, or some arbitrary stat that could get introduced.

Redemption statwise is really bad. Regen stats tend to be a filler stats not really the big draw of the item unless you are warmog's and at that point you suck as an item.

Supports need items that gives offensive options but 80% of items are currently very defensive.

And the ones that are offensive are pretty lousy.

50000000000000001 votes

Are you saying that they do or don't care about stats? I think you're saying they don't, but just clarifying. Also, most support items provide some defense stats because you need to be alive in order to use your utility.

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